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Displaying 24p content in 3D

post #1 of 38
4/27/10 at 10:21am
Thread Starter 
There's been a lot of debate about how the new 3DTVs display 24p 3D content. While we know Samsung displays 24p content at 120hz per eye alternating blank frames to reduce ghosting -- we assume Sony does the same thing -- but how Panasonic's displays do it isn't as clear.

The new VT20's on display at Best Buys will let you choose 48hz, 60hz or 96hz when watching 3D content, and with the limited demo material, it is hard to noticed any flicker. But there is still some debate as to if that is the per eye or the total refresh rate.



It seems unlikely that a Panasonic plasma can refresh at 192hz, but it seems just as unlikely that 48hz total for both eyes would be watchable.

I've requested an official response from Panasonic's PR team, but have yet to hear back one way or another. I do have a source who originally told me it was per eye, but now tells me the answer isn't that simple.
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post #2 of 38
4/27/10 at 4:19pm
Thread Starter 
A representative from Panasonic's PR department got back to me today and confirmed that it is 48hz, 60Hz, or 96Hz per eye.

Not sure what else to say.
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post #3 of 38
4/27/10 at 11:13pm
Another strange thing of this setting is the lack of 72Hz. If the TV is able to deliver 96Hz per eye (192Hz total), all the more it should be able to deliver 72Hz per eye (144hz total), which is sufficient against flicker (it's a triple flash) and much easier to reach for a plasma than 192hz.
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post #4 of 38
4/28/10 at 5:10am
Thread Starter 
I've always wondered why Panasonic choose 96hz instead of 72hz like the Pioneer plasma. I guess they figure since they offer 48hz, it doesn't make sense to offer 72 as well.
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post #5 of 38
4/28/10 at 10:46am
Ben,
Since you saw not significant difference in flickering based on your tests in your first post in this thread when you selected 48Hz I do not think that that the change from a 60fps content for each eye to 24fps content for each eye.

Based on the quote below from the following link I do not think the Panasonic PR rep is correct about 96Hz for each eye since that would require the ability to refresh at 192Hz.

http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/us201...vt_plasma.html

"
Separate images recorded in 1920 x 1080-pixel resolution for both the left and right eyes are alternately displayed at the ultra-high speed of 120 frames per second
"
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post #6 of 38
4/28/10 at 10:58am
Thread Starter 
My test was done in under 5 minutes and with very limited sample material. Just because I didn't see any obvious flicker doesn't mean I wouldn't with different material or with more time.

Regardless, I suspect there is more to the story as well. The PR department obviously feel confident enough to tell me yes, while at the same time doesn't have enough confidence to put it in marketing material. But at this point I really don't have any reason to believe the PR answer isn't at least partially correct.

Hopefully someone who knows exactly what is going on when you select 96Hz in 3D mode can tell us.
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post #7 of 38
4/28/10 at 11:36am
It is not just being in 3D mode that is important its is being in 3D mode when receiving 2 frames per packed from a new 3D player playing a true 3D BR disk and not just 3D content from a SBS internet conection or by selecting to updgrade 2D conntent to 3D "fake" format usiing that capability which is available in the Samsung 3DTVs.
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post #8 of 38
4/28/10 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post

Another strange thing of this setting is the lack of 72Hz. If the TV is able to deliver 96Hz per eye (192Hz total), all the more it should be able to deliver 72Hz per eye (144hz total), which is sufficient against flicker (it's a triple flash) and much easier to reach for a plasma than 192hz.

you are right this make no sense at all.

the panasonic can not do 2x 96hz it can do 2x48 hz that picture flickers
but have no motion bug when 24p film is the source and it
can do 2x 60 hz that have the 3:2 pulldown motion bug inside but
almost no flicker.

the new panasonic gern. plasma late this or early next year can do 2x 72
with no flicker and no motion bug.
sad they cant do it with the 2 first 3d plasmas.
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post #9 of 38
4/28/10 at 3:39pm
Thread Starter 
I still don't understand how so many are piling in on the plasma can't do 192Hz. I mean the PR department is saying it can, I just don't understand how so many are so confident they are lying.
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post #10 of 38
4/28/10 at 5:57pm
Ben,
I am surprised at you, I thought that you had some techinical background and were not just a reporter parroting what Marketers or PR department people tell you with no technical confirmation of the facts like some of the CEnet staff do. If Panasonic considesr 120Hz an Ultra high speed that it has develped or display 3D BR disk content then I don't see how the same box has fast enough phospers to also display 24P 1080p content in at 192 fps.
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post #11 of 38
4/28/10 at 6:07pm
Thread Starter 
I'm not saying they are right, just that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I also find it funny that on one hand some use the marketing material as evidence and on the other insinuate that believing PR is naive.

My point is that there is NO proof that it can't refresh at 192Hz. If you have some, I'd love to learn about it.

And just for the record, I did challenge them and ask them why the VT plasma website you linked to states it is 120Hz instead of 192Hz. In the end, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this mystery.
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post #12 of 38
5/26/10 at 7:00am
Thread Starter 
Finally had my call with Pannasonic's engineer yesterday and he explained that it is 96hz total, not per eye. He further explained that the UI is missleading and that the display options for 24p 3D content should be labeled 48hz, 96hz and 120hz (not 60).

It'll be interesting to hear if people who noticed flicker on 2D 24p content at 48hz will also notice it on 3D 24p content at 96hz, since it is the the same frame rate per eye, but not the same total frame rate.
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post #13 of 38
5/26/10 at 7:31am
That's what I thought, Ben. I do see flicker at 96hz. The Panasonic menus are confusing and misleading.
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post #14 of 38
5/26/10 at 7:55am
Ok, now it's clear.

In the meantime I had an opportunity to watch the panny at 120hz and I (with my European eye) saw judder. I couldn't change the setting to try 96Hz (I was in a shopping mall, they didn't even have the remote control). I'll go to a specialized shop to try the TV in more depth.

What I expect is to see judder but no flicker at 120Hz and flicker but no judder at 96hz.
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post #15 of 38
5/26/10 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post

Ok, now it's clear.

In the meantime I had an opportunity to watch the panny at 120hz and I (with my European eye) saw judder. I couldn't change the setting to try 96Hz (I was in a shopping mall, they didn't even have the remote control). I'll go to a specialized shop to try the TV in more depth.

What I expect is to see judder but no flicker at 120Hz and flicker but no judder at 96hz.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I saw. I know I can't live with the flicker. It took me about 10 seconds before I had to switch back to 120hz. From day one, though, the motion on the Panasonic has looked choppy - not in most clips, but definitely in Astro Boy. I suspect most of the clips are video sources, while Astro Boy is probably 24fps.
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post #16 of 38
5/27/10 at 12:33am
I saw judder even in Grand Canyon adventures. But I don't know what the TV settings were and thus I have to wait a more thorough test.
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post #17 of 38
5/27/10 at 9:09am
Since both the Samsung and Panasonic 3D US Plasmas are refrershing at 120HZ that means that each eye is refreshing at 60fps. And I would expect frame rate Judder since the only way I know of to convert 24fps content to 60fps content in real time is to use 3:2 pulldown.
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post #18 of 38
5/28/10 at 2:01pm
in germany the panasonic cant do 2x60 when 24p is the source.

they last min. change it as older software can do 2x 60 with 24p content.

the samsung do also only 2x 60 and without motion smoothing it show
good visible this 3:2 motion bug.
with motion smoothing it not show it but i dont know how they did it as there are
no motion bugs anymore but seams its still 2x60 hz!

with motion smoothing on the picture becomes very soft.
so you can switch between sharp picture and motion bug or sof picture without
motion bug.

next gern. will do it perfect.
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post #19 of 38
5/28/10 at 4:05pm
Arn't the models sold in Germany 100Hz models If so I would xpect them to do 2x50 per eye not 2x60 per eye.
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post #20 of 38
5/29/10 at 12:54am
no in 3d as the software is 1920x1080 at 24p or 1280x720 at 60p
there is no 50p.
in 2d yes it can do 50.
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post #21 of 38
5/29/10 at 9:49am
I thought that 3D 1080p/24fps br packed buffer content could be played on 100HZ 3D TVs with some modification since 2x24=48 since the HDMI 1.4 3D specs appear to state that 60Hz TVs support 720p/60 and 1080p/24 and that 50Hz Tvs support 720p/50 and 1080p/24.
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post #22 of 38
6/2/10 at 11:50pm
A friend and I went through this whole investigation on a Panasonic plasma with Panasonic Blu-ray player just last Friday (in a cooperative store).

The settings of "24, 48, 60" are definitely per eye, meaning refresh rates of 48, 96, 120 respectively. There is TREMENDOUS flickering in 24 fps content when 24(48) is selected. The flickering is so bad that you can actually see the goggles flicker if you take them off and just look through them at a lighted area.

The salespeople had no idea until we explained the situation to them. They said they installed the setup using default settings and thought that flicker was "the way 3D looked".

Note that in the Panasonic demo disk, they have actually arranged the menus so that the Blu-ray disk main-menu selections on the left (in larger font size) are theatrical 24 fps content (e.g. Astro Boy), where the selections on the right (e.g. Motocross) are HD video shot at 30 fps. All of the 30 fps content displays fine no matter what the set/BD player settings are, since it's always shown at 60(120).

If the BD player is configured for 24 fps, the TV won't let you change the display mode. This means that every time you watch a Blu-ray movie, you're going to have to toggle the player settings to turn off 24 fps, then ideally turn it back on to watch 2D content.

If you're trying to demo the Panasonic combo, make sure the player has 24 fps turned off, and the TV shows 60 Hz (should be the only available setting once the player 24 fps setting is disabled).

We can surmise from this whole mess that:

A) The Panasonic TVs apparently cannot achieve 144 Hz refresh (72 per eye). If they could do 144 Hz, they wouldn't have stuck users with the 24(48), 48(96), or 60(120) choices.

B) It appears that all 3D content on the Panasonic setup must go through an unnecessary 60 Hz conversion to avoid flicker.

However, with all of the challenges/distractions of 3D in general, I doubt we're going to easily notice whether content has gone through a 60 Hz intermediate conversion. The difference can be very subtle in 2D, given properly flagged content coupled with efficient frame rate conversion in the units.

KC
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post #23 of 38
6/3/10 at 5:09am
Thread Starter 
I appreciate your contribution to the thread, I did find it interesting -- especially the part about the 24p output of the BD player -- but I'm afraid that like my first post you are incorrect about the total frame rate.

The total refresh rates the display is capable of is 48, 96 and 120. 144 and 192 are not supported. In addition the 3D Blu-ray spec does not support 1080p30 per eye, only 1080p24 per eye, 720p60 per eye and 1080i60 per eye -- although after proper deinterlacing 1080i60 per eye should be equal to 1080p30 per eye.
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post #24 of 38
6/3/10 at 8:11am
Why why would you want to set a 60Hz 3D Plasma TV at anything other then 120 fps since 120=2x60 and 5x24?
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post #25 of 38
6/3/10 at 8:20am
Thread Starter 
Wait what? 5x24?

How do you think that would work?
L-R-L-R-L?
Where are you getting the extra left frame from?

The 3D Blu-ray signal is 24 frames per second per eye, so 48 frames per second total.
48 does not go into 120 evenly. So you'd have to show one frame twice. So basically 3:2 pull down; L-L-L-R-R but 3D style L-R-L-R-L.
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post #26 of 38
6/3/10 at 9:16am
When displaying 3D 24 fps content in 120Hz 3D tVs the content for each eye is handled independently and is dieplayed 60 times per second. L-R-L-R
When displaying the next frame for each eye 3:2 pull down is used to determine which of the 24 incoming frames to display next.
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post #27 of 38
6/3/10 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Wait what? 5x24?

How do you think that would work?
L-R-L-R-L?
Where are you getting the extra left frame from?

The 3D Blu-ray signal is 24 frames per second per eye, so 48 frames per second total.
48 does not go into 120 evenly. So you'd have to show one frame twice. So basically 3:2 pull down; L-L-L-R-R but 3D style L-R-L-R-L.

Erm, for 3:2 that would be:

Source 2x24 fps: L1-R1-L2-R2-L3-R3...
Display 2x60 fps: L1-R1-L1-R1-L1-R1-L2-R2-L2-R2-L3-R3-L3-R3-L3-R3...

And, consequently, 2:2 puldown:
Display 2x48 fps: L1-R1-L1-R1-L2-R2-L2-R2-L3-R3-L3-R3...
3:3 pulldown:
Display 2x72 fps: L1-R1-L1-R1-L1-R1-L2-R2-L2-R2-L2-R2-L3-R3-L3-R3-L3-R3...
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post #28 of 38
6/3/10 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I appreciate your contribution to the thread, I did find it interesting -- especially the part about the 24p output of the BD player -- but I'm afraid that like my first post you are incorrect about the total frame rate.

The total refresh rates the display is capable of is 48, 96 and 120. 144 and 192 are not supported. In addition the 3D Blu-ray spec does not support 1080p30 per eye, only 1080p24 per eye, 720p60 per eye and 1080i60 per eye -- although after proper deinterlacing 1080i60 per eye should be equal to 1080p30 per eye.

I'm not sure who you're replying to, because my post was immediately above yours, and I didn't say 144 or 192 were supported (I said the opposite).

KC
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post #29 of 38
2/14/11 at 6:18am
apologies for the huge bump, but this is one of the few places I've found discussing this.

I have a sony 3DTV with 200Hz motionflow 'pro'. Trying to work out how it displays 3D blurays, as they seem to flicker more than 720p content from the PS3.

Although US TVs are 240Hz, I was assuming that both US and UK TVs would display bluray content in the same way - hopefully at 240Hz. The 200Hz used in local marketing would mainly be due to legacy reasons (they used to market 100Hz for reducing flicker on CRTs etc). So more for domestic TV watching at 1080i/50 than for any advanced inputs like 3D bluray.

Is that the case from your understanding?
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post #30 of 38
2/14/11 at 7:30am
I have a 58VT25 hooked up to my ps3. I do have 24p enabled in the ps3 and i'm still able to change from 48/60/96 in the panny's menu. i read above that once the blu-ray player is set to output 24p, i wont be able to change the rates on the tv.

Just to confirm the correct way to watch a 3D bluray on a ps3 is to turn 24p off in the ps3 and set the panny to 60hz????

Thanks
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