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First time using Calman

post #1 of 33
4/30/10 at 3:46pm
Thread Starter 
I calibrated my Pioneer 8G today with Calman and Chroma 5 for the first time. I used AVS HD 709 as the pattern source. Please see results below. Can you please comment?

Colors don't seem to hit the bullseye and i don't know what all the delta graphs mean. Is the absolute luminance on colors good?

Also what formula should i be using for dE and gamma?
LL
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LL
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post #2 of 33
4/30/10 at 4:31pm
You're charts look great.

DeltaE is just a measure of color error. Less than 3 is pretty much imperceptible in moving images.
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post #3 of 33
4/30/10 at 5:40pm
Umm did you notice that your in Simulated Meter mode? it says it right on top of the
Charts.





When setting up the meter make sure it selects the Chroma 5. if not hit refresh next to meter selection and then in the new window hit clear history then ok. then make sure it selects the Chroma 5.

Athanasios
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post #4 of 33
4/30/10 at 5:58pm
He might of done what I did. I calibrated on my lap top then saved the .cdf file. Then reload CalMAN on another desktop and just restore the data to look at it and it will say simulated meter even though its not.

But it does look suspicious.

Dave
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post #5 of 33
4/30/10 at 6:00pm
Thread Starter 
Yes i know it's simulated meter. It's just i took the readings with the Chroma 5 but then i loaded the saved session when the meter was disconnected and simulated meter had to be selected. The readings you see were taken with the Chroma 5.

If dE is close to 3 why is blue so off target?

Which dE formula should be used? 1976? 1994? or any other? the results you see are with 94.

Also what formula should be used for gamma? In the session you see i used power function.
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post #6 of 33
4/30/10 at 6:26pm
Under Set the Color Decoder, it references in the help section on the the right item 2 - Change the Delta E* Formula to 1994 (Options Ã* DeltaE Ã* Formula).

I don't see the Gamma option. Maybe I missed something. And Blue is very hard to get right.

Its looks good.
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post #7 of 33
4/30/10 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

Yes i know it's simulated meter. It's just i took the readings with the Chroma 5 but then i loaded the saved session when the meter was disconnected and simulated meter had to be selected. The readings you see were taken with the Chroma 5.

If dE is close to 3 why is blue so off target?

Which dE formula should be used? 1976? 1994? or any other? the results you see are with 94.

Also what formula should be used for gamma? In the session you see i used power function.

typically 1974 is used for greyscale and 1994 is used for gamut.

For gamma use the power function, exponent somwhere betwen 2.0 and 2.5 2.0 for a bright room, 2.5 for a bat cave. Usually 2.2-2.35 is appropriate.
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post #8 of 33
4/30/10 at 6:32pm
Blue has a dE of like 3.8, that's not hardly off at all.
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post #9 of 33
4/30/10 at 8:47pm
I'm about to do the same on my Pioneer 8G. I just bought Calman with the DTP-94. First time with Calman as well.

What mode were you in on the 8G? User? Movie? Can you also provide the rest of your user setting also?

Thanks!
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post #10 of 33
5/1/10 at 1:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

I calibrated my Pioneer 8G today with Calman and Chroma 5 for the first time. I used AVS HD 709 as the pattern source. Please see results below. Can you please comment?

Colors don't seem to hit the bullseye and i don't know what all the delta graphs mean. Is the absolute luminance on colors good?

Also what formula should i be using for dE and gamma?

I believe ur charts look good for greyscale and gamma. However, ur luminance on all the colours are way too high. For the 8G, the color control is the luminance control. I would use the red as an indicator and reduce color until ur luminance of red is close to target. Then redo the measurements for all colours.

The 8G Blue is most always above 3 in DeltaE1994.
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post #11 of 33
5/1/10 at 4:00am
Thread Starter 
Thank you all for your answers.

So what dEs are acceptable with the dE1994 formula?

Venkatesh i have a really hard time setting the color and tint controls. can you please advice on how to set them? What's the proper way? What's the luminance target for red?

anleva i'll post my settings later. i calibrated the tv's movie mode
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post #12 of 33
5/1/10 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

Thank you all for your answers.

So what dEs are acceptable with the dE1994 formula?

Venkatesh i have a really hard time setting the color and tint controls. can you please advice on how to set them? What's the proper way? What's the luminance target for red?

anleva i'll post my settings later. i calibrated the tv's movie mode

pppp1,

Use the gamut chart (c3) that u showed. Pull up the 75% Red and take a measurement after the 75% White. Then use the color control and adjust down until the Y value under R is close to the TY under Red (TY is the calculated/or the target based on ur 75% white).

Then take the measurements for the other colours. The luminance values will now be at least closer.

As far as I remember the DE1994 that u show are about close to what is normal. Most will be below 2 except Blue that shd be either close to 3 or above 3.
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post #13 of 33
5/1/10 at 7:39am
Thread Starter 
venkmatesh does that part of calman need the 75% readings or the 100%? It says 75% and then red not 75% red. do i take measures for 75%white then 75% for all colors and then 100% white?
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post #14 of 33
5/1/10 at 11:14am
Thread Starter 
Okay i had a go again today. I think i got the color control right. Please have a look at the results and tell me what i can improve. How do i set the tint control? Venkmatesh i'm sure you're right and 75% is used for the gamut readings. Are the differences in absolute luminance a problem? Some are plus some are minus in the absolute luminance table. I adjusted so that red was zero in that table.
LL
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post #15 of 33
5/1/10 at 12:13pm
The tint color correlates to the dE for Hue.
Tint primarly effects the secondaries, and your secondaires look pretty good, so is pretty dead on. you could move maybe one click to lower the dE on yellow at the expense of cyan and magenta, but you're pretty much there.

The new grayscale looks like you might have contrast set too high. Red is falling of at the higher %'s. I'd guess that' it's clipping as red is the first color to clip to most displays.
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post #16 of 33
5/1/10 at 2:13pm
Thread Starter 
What does it mean it's clipping red? I set contrast so that bars 230-34 flash and even some above that, should i lower it?
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post #17 of 33
5/1/10 at 3:47pm
you want ot be able to see ALL the bars. up to 254.

Clipping means that when the signal asks for more red, the display can not produce more red.
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post #18 of 33
5/1/10 at 4:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

you want ot be able to see ALL the bars. up to 254.

Clipping means that when the signal asks for more red, the display can not produce more red.

How do i know it's clipping red? and why do i want all bars to 254? isn't that for pc signals? isn't video in the range 16-235?
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post #19 of 33
5/1/10 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

Okay i had a go again today. I think i got the color control right. Please have a look at the results and tell me what i can improve. How do i set the tint control? Venkmatesh i'm sure you're right and 75% is used for the gamut readings. Are the differences in absolute luminance a problem? Some are plus some are minus in the absolute luminance table. I adjusted so that red was zero in that table.

Looks pretty decent. However, as sotti says, the greyscale is indicating a red deficiency. I would go back to increasing Red Gain by once click in the greyscale adjustments. Then play around with the gains and offsets to improve the greyscale a little more.

For the colours, the one suggestion I could give is probably to bump up color control by one more click to see if u can bump up green a little, but it looks pretty much what the 8Gs deliver most of the time.

I believe in Movie mode if u want u can get contrast to ~ 36ft/L without clipping.

In the ISF modes, I could get the contrast up to 41ft/L without clipping, so if u want brighter screens u might need controlcal to enable a brighter image.
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post #20 of 33
5/1/10 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

How do i know it's clipping red? and why do i want all bars to 254? isn't that for pc signals? isn't video in the range 16-235?

The video system goes to 254 (255 is reserved in the video system).

It looks like red is clipping because it tracks well till about 80% then starts becoming a big low.

From what you've said about where you set the contrast bars, it seems like you've chosen to clip somewhere.
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post #21 of 33
5/2/10 at 4:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post

Looks pretty decent. However, as sotti says, the greyscale is indicating a red deficiency. I would go back to increasing Red Gain by once click in the greyscale adjustments. Then play around with the gains and offsets to improve the greyscale a little more.

For the colours, the one suggestion I could give is probably to bump up color control by one more click to see if u can bump up green a little, but it looks pretty much what the 8Gs deliver most of the time.

I believe in Movie mode if u want u can get contrast to ~ 36ft/L without clipping.

In the ISF modes, I could get the contrast up to 41ft/L without clipping, so if u want brighter screens u might need controlcal to enable a brighter image.

The ftl i get is the Y value at 100%W right? So I'm in the 32ftl region now?
I don't understand why i need to see the bars all the way up to 254. I always thought 235 was enough. I don't need to see all the bars from 0 to 16 right?
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post #22 of 33
5/2/10 at 7:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

The ftl i get is the Y value at 100%W right? So I'm in the 32ftl region now?
I don't understand why i need to see the bars all the way up to 254. I always thought 235 was enough. I don't need to see all the bars from 0 to 16 right?

You're right about the Y and the ft/L I was indicating.

The debate about being able to see all they way to 254 is actually pretty interesting in the other thread. Anyway, I don't think on the 8G Kuros u can do anything to show all the way until 254 without enabling DRE, so nothing much we can do. I think on the 8Gs u probably see up till ~ 246ish...maybe? I cannot remember too well, have not looked at that in some time.

On the low end, I think it is a little clearer that u don't wanna show anything below 16.
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post #23 of 33
5/2/10 at 9:32am
Thread Starter 
So i have to set to show as much as i can above white?
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post #24 of 33
5/2/10 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

So i have to set to show as much as i can above white?

Yes.

The reasoning is complicated, but as lead developer on calman v4, I've been in touch with several industry experts and discussed the trade-offs between clipping and passing full range and without exception the answer has been to disclose all the away through 254 (or at least whatever the display is capable of). The next version of calman will support calibration runs up to 109%.

As for BTB, Yes if 16 is suppost to represent 0 light, then everything below 16 should also reproduce 0 light.
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post #25 of 33
5/2/10 at 11:37am
Thread Starter 
Do the results represent an accurate picture of the Pioneer 8G calibrated picture? Am i close to as good as it gets with the MOVIE mode?

Can someone tell me what i should be aiming at with color luminance? does the absolute luminance table tell me that blue, red and yellow are oversaturated and the rest undersaturated? How over and undersaturated are they? Is it bad in any way? or is it in the "you won't be able to tell the difference" zone?
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post #26 of 33
5/4/10 at 3:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

Do the results represent an accurate picture of the Pioneer 8G calibrated picture? Am i close to as good as it gets with the MOVIE mode?

Can someone tell me what i should be aiming at with color luminance? does the absolute luminance table tell me that blue, red and yellow are oversaturated and the rest undersaturated? How over and undersaturated are they? Is it bad in any way? or is it in the "you won't be able to tell the difference" zone?

pppp1,

I'm no pro but this is based on my own experience. If u increase colour control a couple of clicks, I believe ur green and red will move outwards in the CIE triangle and become a little more accurate. What happens though is that ur blue luminance errors become larger, but the difference in actual viewing is not as much. I do remember that I had to get color to about 4 or 5 and the green and red errors delta color will reduce.

Of course, it would be best to align everything perfectly, but I guess calibration is trying to work within the limitations to deliver the best we can out of our displays.
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post #27 of 33
5/7/10 at 7:49am
I received my meter and Calman yesterday and played around a bit with things on my Pioneer 6010FD. One thing I noticed is that I did not seem to be able to effect much change with my greyscale measurements with the R-Low, B-Low and G-Low adjustments in the service menu. I could with the high measurements but RGB-low didn't do much. Any suggestions?
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post #28 of 33
5/7/10 at 9:22am
Thread Starter 
Yes i agree with you. All the low controls are at 0 for me now. One question i have is about green. I read somewhere that you should not touch green controls anywhere. Is that true? Why is that if true?
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post #29 of 33
5/7/10 at 11:03am
The way human vision works, almost 75% of how bright you perceive the image to be is the green component. Red makes up most of the remaining perceived brightness, with blue only contributing a couple of percent. So you can balance your greyscale by changing green, but that's going to have the biggest impact on the brightness and contrast you've already selected. It's best if you can set brightness and contrast correctly and then fix greyscale without changing green, though of course you still have to double check everything.
Roy
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post #30 of 33
5/7/10 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

The way human vision works, almost 75% of how bright you perceive the image to be is the green component. Red makes up most of the remaining perceived brightness, with blue only contributing a couple of percent. So you can balance your greyscale by changing green, but that's going to have the biggest impact on the brightness and contrast you've already selected. It's best if you can set brightness and contrast correctly and then fix greyscale without changing green, though of course you still have to double check everything.
Roy

Displays also perform this way, as the majority of the luminance component or "Y" is carried in the green channel.

Sometimes one will need to "freeze" red or blue instead of green. This is when the display simply runs out of that color no matter how low overall contrast is. In that case, you'll want to adjust the other two down to it. Thankfully, this is very rare these days.
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