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Huge news! How to remove ghosting on 55" Samsung 7000 led tv

post #1 of 23
5/2/10 at 11:11am
Thread Starter 
Those of you who followed the original thread on the Samsung 7000 LED ghosting know that I was one of the first to supply specific details on the issue. I'm happy to say I have now completely removed ghosting and this is how it's done:

1. Update the TV's firmware.
2. When update is done, go into the picture menu, then the 3D menu, and turn auto 3D off.
3. In the same menu, adjust the 3D viewpoint from 0 to +5.
4. Start MvA.
5. Enjoy your movie with no ghosting!

I appears that the firmware update added 3D viewpoint as a new menu feature - I don't remember it being there before, and it's not in the manual.

The best place to see this new feature in action is in the opening asteroid belt scene, where I described how when you leave the asteroid belt and focus in on the planet that is about to explode, you can clearly see ghosting on the right side of the planet. Pause the movie and the ghosting is still evident. Pull up the 3D menu and adjust the 3D viewpoint. At the 0 setting the ghosting is still evident; at -5 it is worse. But moving from -5 to +5 you can actually see the ghosted image shift to the left and become smaller and smaller until it disappears.

The only reason I stumbled across this was I bought my new Pioneer 1.4 receiver and wanted to see if it had any affect on the ghosting. Kudos to Samsung for fixing this problem with a simple firmware update.

I'm so stoked that I can't wait for some other movies to come out!

My apologies if this was reported elsewhere - I haven't seen any mention of it.
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post #2 of 23
5/2/10 at 1:55pm
Excellent news. Will certainly help 3D take off in the home if they can eliminate ghosting/crosstalk in the 3D sets.
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post #3 of 23
5/2/10 at 1:59pm
and you don't have to make these adjustments throughout the movie? adjusting to one scene will remove ghosting for the whole movie? Does this adjustment have any effect on the 3D itself in terms of depth or pop out effect?
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post #4 of 23
5/2/10 at 2:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

and you don't have to make these adjustments throughout the movie? adjusting to one scene will remove ghosting for the whole movie? Does this adjustment have any effect on the 3D itself in terms of depth or pop out effect?

You only have to make the adjustment once. I watched the whole movie again, and did not see any ghosting where I saw it before, so one adjustment works for the whole movie. It will be a little annoying if you have to adjust this from movie to movie, but there's no way to know until more movies are out.

I think it does make the depth/pop out effect more noticeable, although it could be my imagination. As we watched the new setting, my roommate and I looked at each other and said "Wow, did the 3D effect look this good before?" I'd have to go down to Best Buy to watch their setup again but I could swear that the depth has improved. It makes sense because the ghosting would have a blurring effect on edges that would reduce the "pop" factor, and with that blurring removed you would expect to see more pop.

Note that you can't adjust the depth setting, that only works on 2D to 3D conversions - it seems to be a fixed setting.
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post #5 of 23
5/2/10 at 5:08pm
If they do an update for the 50C8000 Plasma model and this actually works (minimize the ghosting), I may go for it. Other than the crosstalk in MVA, I really the set I've been playing with at the store.
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post #6 of 23
5/2/10 at 5:33pm
Yes, Samsung have added new features to reduce cross-talk.The 3D Video Point is an excellent tool that allows users to configure the stereoscopic wideness and they've added additional over-drive option as well.


Wish we could have a sample to review it ^-^
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post #7 of 23
5/3/10 at 1:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Yes, Samsung have added new features to reduce cross-talk.The 3D Video Point is an excellent tool that allows users to configure the stereoscopic wideness and they've added additional over-drive option as well.


Wish we could have a sample to review it ^-^

Do you know if this update on the samsung uk website for the c7000 plasma will have the feature to reduce crosstalk?
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post #8 of 23
5/3/10 at 7:29am
I tried this adjustment last night and it doesn't quite work for me. When I set the viewpoint to +5 all of the ghosting that is visible on the right-hand side of objects disappears, but it creates a ghosted image on the left-hand side of the object. The best setting I've found for my setup is to have the viewpoint at 0. Thanks OP for the suggestion, but I think this may be a ymmv adjustment.
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post #9 of 23
5/3/10 at 12:13pm
Does anyone have a link to what the VideoPoint adjustment actually does within the TV?
And is it provided in order to correct for a sync problem within the TV, in the glases, or a problem with the users vision?
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post #10 of 23
5/3/10 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gebboots View Post

Do you know if this update on the samsung uk website for the c7000 plasma will have the feature to reduce crosstalk?

That I don't know
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post #11 of 23
5/3/10 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Does anyone have a link to what the VideoPoint adjustment actually does within the TV?
And is it provided in order to correct for a sync problem within the TV, in the glases, or a problem with the users vision?

Sounds like it adjusts the convergence setting.
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post #12 of 23
5/3/10 at 5:00pm
If that is the case then what actually does the "convergence" setting accomplish and how, and why would different users get the best results with different settings?
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post #13 of 23
5/3/10 at 6:53pm
I have the nVidia glasses/3D game stuff and going by what it does... It lessens the 3D effect but makes the images come together. There are basically two 3D settings, convergence (pop out) and depth (pop in). Its sacrificing one for the other. No two people see the same thing with 3D. Some see more pop in or out than others.

This is why I know that 3D will fail, besides having to wear sh*tty glasses.
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post #14 of 23
5/4/10 at 6:12am
As others have noted, the firmware "fix" allows users to alter the horizontal convergence (parallax) of the two images. It does not "fix" the crosstalk issues on these displays, it merely disguises the problem.

Additionally, if a user employs this feature to "fix" crosstalk by fine-tuning the convergence to a specific scene (such as the planet explosion in MvA), the "fix" will only work for that scene and for other scenes with similar compositions (relative to their horizontal parallax). Scenes with different compositions will still exhibit crosstalk, possibly to an even worse extent.
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post #15 of 23
5/4/10 at 7:08am
Do I understand then that it changes the horizontal pixel spacing of the right and left hand images on the screen by a fixed amouunt and that I should assume that a - value would bring them closer together and a + amount would spread them apart? Or does it change the timing sync of the glases?
Would this mean that you may need to change the setting when at different viewing distances or between different 3D sources for best results?
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post #16 of 23
5/4/10 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE DU3C3 View Post

I tried this adjustment last night and it doesn't quite work for me. When I set the viewpoint to +5 all of the ghosting that is visible on the right-hand side of objects disappears, but it creates a ghosted image on the left-hand side of the object. The best setting I've found for my setup is to have the viewpoint at 0. Thanks OP for the suggestion, but I think this may be a ymmv adjustment.

This description of the effects of the setting let me think that it is not a convergence or depth setting. It seems a setting of the position of the time window of opening of the glasses shutter with respect to the frame duration.

In LCDs, there is a black interval between a left and right image. The left shutter of the glasses has to open in the right moment to catch only the left image. This is made difficult by the scanning mechanism of LCDs, that display the image line-by-line form top to bottom. If it opens too early, you see part of the right image on the left part of the screen, if it opens too late you see part of the right image on the right part of the screen.

I think that the right moment of the opening is difficult to set as a fixed value by the producer; in some sets it is ok, in other not (this would explain the different reports). The setting let the user to find himself the right value.

A graphical explanation of what I suggest (although relative to an old LCD) is given in Figure 5 of this article.
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post #17 of 23
5/4/10 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Or does it change the timing sync of the glases?

With the description above I think it changes the timing sync of the glasses.
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post #18 of 23
5/7/10 at 5:11pm
Version 1019.1 was released today which introduced another new setting "3D Optimize":

- Add ''3D Optimize'' option on User OSD (3D TV only)

I set this option to -1 and it greatly improved the 3D picture with regards to crosstalk issue. It's not perfect but it makes the 3D viewing experience so much better.

I have a UN46C7000 and I believe it came with 1012 which I upgraded to 1017 on the very first day. After reading this thread I changed the 3D Optimize setting to various values from -5 to +5 but anything other than 0 made it worse.

I guess like THE DU3C3 said these settings seem to be 'YMMV' adjustments. It's interesting to see what results you get by playing with these options. Anyway, it's nice to see Samsung making an effort to correct this issue.

BTW, a new f/w v1010 for BD-C6900 was also released today:

Ver 1010.0 : May. 06. 2010
1.Improve specific BD title''s playback capability.

No idea what this does though.

Hope this helps!
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post #19 of 23
5/8/10 at 1:26pm
I saw a demonstration of (Samsung) 3D with the fw upgrade today and for me, at least, crosstalk is no longer an issue.
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post #20 of 23
5/8/10 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post

This description of the effects of the setting let me think that it is not a convergence or depth setting. It seems a setting of the position of the time window of opening of the glasses shutter with respect to the frame duration.

In LCDs, there is a black interval between a left and right image. The left shutter of the glasses has to open in the right moment to catch only the left image. This is made difficult by the scanning mechanism of LCDs, that display the image line-by-line form top to bottom. If it opens too early, you see part of the right image on the left part of the screen, if it opens too late you see part of the right image on the right part of the screen.

I think that the right moment of the opening is difficult to set as a fixed value by the producer; in some sets it is ok, in other not (this would explain the different reports). The setting let the user to find himself the right value.

A graphical explanation of what I suggest (although relative to an old LCD) is given in Figure 5 of this article.

The Samsung 3D LCD TVs feature dual-scanning (aka double scanning) where two lines are addressed to improve uniformity

Also, the active shutter glasses also have their own pixel lag (~2ms) and the Samsung version (according to one of the engineers) expose 100% per eye.

Maybe I should ask his about its function when I get some time
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post #21 of 23
5/9/10 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

The Samsung 3D LCD TVs feature dual-scanning (aka double scanning) where two lines are addressed to improve uniformity

Can you explain this feature with a bit more detail ?
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post #22 of 23
5/9/10 at 9:22am
Nielo,
Is there much variance in Lag between individual Active shutter Glases of the same brand? Or do the glases have no Lag and the ~2ms Lag you describe all in the Emitter?
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post #23 of 23
5/9/10 at 10:55am
I wrote an article regarding the active glasses and the dual-line addressing, which should be online soon. I think I've made it too technical and Vincent is probably trying to rephrase it

@Mike5

Dual-scanning refers addressing of two rows of pixels simultaneously to increase pixel response and to improve address uniformity. Simply put, standard LCDs address each row of pixels in a line by line fashion, which is acceptable for 2D but can cause cross-talk in 3D due to the uniformity of the display image as the screen is populated with outdated and updated information. High-speed charging of the cell complements dual-scanning as it decreases the time needed for charging the capacitor that stores and supplies power to the active pixels, which accelerates the scanning rate.



@walford

The Active Shutter Glasses designed for Frame-Sequential Stereoscopic 3D is no different to traditional LCD technology. The LCD technology incorporated into the glasses is based on TN mode which is sandwiched between two liner polarized filters; and akin to LCD displays the ASGs also have their own response time, contrast ratio and transmittance value.

So yes, the lag describes the response time of the liquid crystals. But since the TN mode doesn't have to produce grayscale, it's very easy to control and accurate. I don't know if there's any variance between the glasses, but that is unlikely imo.
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