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Official JTR Orbit Shifter Subwoofer Thread - Page 36

post #1051 of 1182
Thread Starter 
One thing to keep in mind is the 14' horn length of the OS. Audyssey (MultXT32) sets my OS's at approx 26' and the subs are approx 12' from the LP so that makes sense. Audyssey does allow adjustments to the distance but I have found that adjusting the distance does not improve the bass response at the LP. In other words, Audyssey does it's job in setting the distance phase settings. smile.gif
post #1052 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

One thing to keep in mind is the 14' horn length of the OS. Audyssey (MultXT32) sets my OS's at approx 26' and the subs are approx 12' from the LP so that makes sense. Audyssey does allow adjustments to the distance but I have found that adjusting the distance does not improve the bass response at the LP. In other words, Audyssey does it's job in setting the distance phase settings. smile.gif
This is also my experience. Audyssey is indeed setting the correct distance when you factor in the horn length. I thought rhed was suggesting that it might help fix my 70hz dip if I change the distance setting, but I'm assuming all it would do if anything is change the frequency the dip is located at.
post #1053 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

This is also my experience. Audyssey is indeed setting the correct distance when you factor in the horn length. I thought rhed was suggesting that it might help fix my 70hz dip if I change the distance setting, but I'm assuming all it would do if anything is change the frequency the dip is located at.
In my experience you won't know until you try. I have a miinidsp and the distance settings helped immensely. It did not always follow exacly what I measure to get the best FR. Sometimes a couple ft one way or the other made a much smoother response without messing up other areas in the FR.
post #1054 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

In my experience you won't know until you try. I have a miinidsp and the distance settings helped immensely. It did not always follow exacly what I measure to get the best FR. Sometimes a couple ft one way or the other made a much smoother response without messing up other areas in the FR.
when I say didn't follow what I measured, I meant physical distance. Some times the measured FR was better with slightly different settings than the measure distance because there are all kinds of delays in the signal chain. Even when Jeff and I measure the distance acoustically I still got slightly better FR by trial and error with +/- trials on the distance settings. Experiments are best I think
post #1055 of 1182
^^ yea bro.. Like what ibrown said. Try it out, experiment. See what audyssey set you distance at. Maybe try a closer distance or farther. Anything!
post #1056 of 1182
Thread Starter 
Subs are like real estate ... location, location location.

I decided to move my Noesis mains out from behind the AT screen to give them some room and create the perfect listening triangle for stereo. I built some box stands and then took apart the front stage. that involved moving the OS's out and moving my front wall acoustic panels. I then place the center Noesis 212 on top of a single centered OS and located the other OS on a side wall location. Luckily I had an in-wall cable with Speakon connects that I removed and soldered on XLR's for the OS input and SSP output. Then I setup the speakers in the best location, ran a quick 3 position Audyssey and put on some music.

I started with just the front and center OS engaged and the speakers sounded great but there was no bass at the LP. The was some bass on the wall seat where the OS horn exit was located but the rest of the room was bass free. I tried s few movie clips and again, no bass ...

Then hooked up the second OS (2/3rd's) down the opposite wall as the front OS horn exit corner and re ran Audyssey (80Hz xover). I did the same music and movie clips and had bass but didn't like the sound feel of all that bass energy coming from the side. I flipped the side wall OS reversing the horn exit and still didn't like it.

OK, now I am exhausted and pissed so what do I do? I scrap the whole plan and revert back to the original dual OS's up front and the Noesis on top of the OS's (on Great Grammas). This time I moved the Noesis all the way out to the edge of the screen and increased the toe-in. I re ran Audyssey and by 9pm last night after 12 hours of hanging/re-hanging panels and humping big speakers and giant subs all over the room (alone by the way) I am back to essentially where I began the day tongue.gif. We ( the wife was amused by my day of frustration) then sat down and watched a movie and it sounded fantastic.

My take away is that it is fun to experiment and try new things but the while the grass can appear greener, it very often isn't. The new wider placement of the Noesis and OS's seems to have made a noticeable improvement in sound stage. I will run some measurements today and see what that shows but I am now convinced that this configuration is best in my asymmetrical room. smile.gif
Edited by RMK! - 11/10/13 at 8:24am
post #1057 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Subs are like real estate ... location, location location.

I decided to move my Noesis mains out from behind the AT screen to give them some room and create the perfect listening triangle for stereo. I built some box stands and then took apart the front stage. that involved moving the OS's out and moving my front wall acoustic panels. I then place the center Noesis 212 on top of a single centered OS and located the other OS on a side wall location. Luckily I had an in-wall cable with Speakon connects that I removed and soldered on XLR's for the OS input and SSP output. Then I setup the speakers in the best location, ran a quick 3 position Audyssey and put on some music.

I started with just the front and center OS engaged and the speakers sounded great but there was no bass at the LP. The was some bass on the wall seat where the OS horn exit was located but the rest of the room was bass free. I tried s few movie clips and again, no bass ...

Then hooked up the second OS (2/3rd's) down the opposite wall as the front OS horn exit corner and re ran Audyssey (80Hz xover). I did the same music and movie clips and had bass but didn't like the sound feel of all that bass energy coming from the side. I flipped the side wall OS reversing the horn exit and still didn't like it.

OK, now I am exhausted and pissed so what do I do? I scrap the whole plan and revert back to the original dual OS's up front and the Noesis on top of the OS's (on Great Grammas). This time I moved the Noesis all the way out to the edge of the screen and increased the toe-in. I re ran Audyssey and by 9pm last night after 12 hours of hanging/re-hanging panels and humping big speakers and giant subs all over the room (alone by the way) I am back to essentially where I began the day tongue.gif. We ( the wife was amused by my day of frustration) then sat down and watched a movie and it sounded fantastic.

My take away is that it is fun to experiment and try new things but the while the grass can appear greener, it very often isn't. The new wider placement of the Noesis and OS's seems to have made a noticeable improvement in sound stage. I will run some measurements today and see what that shows but I am now convinced that this configuration is best in my asymmetrical room. smile.gif
Rob just chalk it up to a day of exercise. I did the same when I got my second OS. moved those things in every permutation around the room and measured with every placement. After a long day I ended up with my first best guess on where to place them. Who syas were just couch potatoes? We work hard for our FR.wink.gif
post #1058 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

One thing to keep in mind is the 14' horn length of the OS. Audyssey (MultXT32) sets my OS's at approx 26' and the subs are approx 12' from the LP so that makes sense. Audyssey does allow adjustments to the distance but I have found that adjusting the distance does not improve the bass response at the LP. In other words, Audyssey does it's job in setting the distance phase settings. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

This is also my experience. Audyssey is indeed setting the correct distance when you factor in the horn length. I thought rhed was suggesting that it might help fix my 70hz dip if I change the distance setting, but I'm assuming all it would do if anything is change the frequency the dip is located at.

Remember, I'm sure you guys know, the Audyssey distance settings are really time delay settings all based on the first mic position measurement. I actually measure the mic for the first so it is dead center. Ususally it is fairly close to physical distance unless you have a horn like the OS. Or for example my two submersives sit right behind my LR mains yet have a 15.1 ft setting when they are actually like 9ft. That's because I have a mini dsp in the signal chain as well as the speaker power amp response to deal with. My LR are 9.4 and 8.8 and are both within a 1/2 inch measured to the mic for that first measurement. Room acoustics is my guess there.

Dotjun, there is a thing you can try called the sub distance tweak procedure actually recommended by Audyssey. It's technically for the main to sub crossover since Audyssey measures those two things separately and has zero processing settings when it comes to the crossover. I know you said 70 is the problem and I think 80 was your crossover. Anything is worth a try IMO though. Really some bass traps are what you need. But search the Audyssey thread for that procedure if you wanted to try. KBarnes has it linked in his fact which is in his signature smile.gif
post #1059 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Subs are like real estate ... location, location location.

I decided to move my Noesis mains out from behind the AT screen to give them some room and create the perfect listening triangle for stereo. I built some box stands and then took apart the front stage. that involved moving the OS's out and moving my front wall acoustic panels. I then place the center Noesis 212 on top of a single centered OS and located the other OS on a side wall location. Luckily I had an in-wall cable with Speakon connects that I removed and soldered on XLR's for the OS input and SSP output. Then I setup the speakers in the best location, ran a quick 3 position Audyssey and put on some music.

I started with just the front and center OS engaged and the speakers sounded great but there was no bass at the LP. The was some bass on the wall seat where the OS horn exit was located but the rest of the room was bass free. I tried s few movie clips and again, no bass ...

Then hooked up the second OS (2/3rd's) down the opposite wall as the front OS horn exit corner and re ran Audyssey (80Hz xover). I did the same music and movie clips and had bass but didn't like the sound feel of all that bass energy coming from the side. I flipped the side wall OS reversing the horn exit and still didn't like it.

OK, now I am exhausted and pissed so what do I do? I scrap the whole plan and revert back to the original dual OS's up front and the Noesis on top of the OS's (on Great Grammas). This time I moved the Noesis all the way out to the edge of the screen and increased the toe-in. I re ran Audyssey and by 9pm last night after 12 hours of hanging/re-hanging panels and humping big speakers and giant subs all over the room (alone by the way) I am back to essentially where I began the day tongue.gif. We ( the wife was amused by my day of frustration) then sat down and watched a movie and it sounded fantastic.

My take away is that it is fun to experiment and try new things but the while the grass can appear greener, it very often isn't. The new wider placement of the Noesis and OS's seems to have made a noticeable improvement in sound stage. I will run some measurements today and see what that shows but I am now convinced that this configuration is best in my asymmetrical room. smile.gif

I was just reading about this Equilateral triangle, the importance of preciseness, etc. I had a precise triangle and the sweet spot was VERY definitive. Un audiophile friends were amazed at sitting direct center and leaning their head 10 inches to the side and back in the middle. I moved my subs from the corner areas to the 1/4 and 3/4 points along the front wall due to recommendations by some of the REW guru's which helped. This allowed me to move my speakers out a bit. The distance between the LR speakers is now about 2.5 feet wider than the distance from the MLP to each L and R individually. I found the sweet spot widened from about 8-10 inches to about 22 inches. I personally felt it was a much better sound and I liked the sweet spot widening. Before if I sat on one side I could definitely tell it wasn't as good as now if I sit on one side.

I felt encouraged later when I read a linked thread from one of the REW guys about speaker placement and the equilateral triangle. Many I read came to the conclusion that when they set up their speakers and a chair in a perfect equilateral triangle that they came to the conclusion they liked when they moved forward a foot or two. That the imaging was much better. I was like yea! Because I did it unknowingly. But I know you have wides so I don't know how that would work. Can you leave the OS's where they are and just you LR 212's out? Personally I thought your OS frequency response looked really good and I would just move the LR out only. But that is my in experienced guess. But it seems logical to me smile.gif good times
post #1060 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post


Remember, I'm sure you guys know, the Audyssey distance settings are really time delay settings all based on the first mic position measurement. I actually measure the mic for the first so it is dead center. Ususally it is fairly close to physical distance unless you have a horn like the OS. Or for example my two submersives sit right behind my LR mains yet have a 15.1 ft setting when they are actually like 9ft. That's because I have a mini dsp in the signal chain as well as the speaker power amp response to deal with. My LR are 9.4 and 8.8 and are both within a 1/2 inch measured to the mic for that first measurement. Room acoustics is my guess there.

Dotjun, there is a thing you can try called the sub distance tweak procedure actually recommended by Audyssey. It's technically for the main to sub crossover since Audyssey measures those two things separately and has zero processing settings when it comes to the crossover. I know you said 70 is the problem and I think 80 was your crossover. Anything is worth a try IMO though. Really some bass traps are what you need. But search the Audyssey thread for that procedure if you wanted to try. KBarnes has it linked in his fact which is in his signature smile.gif
I'm intrigued, tell me more of this sub distance tweak procedure. Also, are you saying that bass traps could possibly fix a null?
post #1061 of 1182
So I'm thinking of building a couple of those tapped anarchy horns. You guys think it'll play nice with my os? I was going to use it more as an mbm.
post #1062 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

I'm intrigued, tell me more of this sub distance tweak procedure. Also, are you saying that bass traps could possibly fix a null?

Absolutely! Sub placement, more subs, and bass traps are the only thing that can truly fix a null. Sure you can boost to make your frequency line flat but if you too a spectrogram or waterfall graph with REW you will see the decay time at that frequency would be increased. Actually an Audyssey corrected null of say 6db would show a definitive amount of more decay time. A flat frequency line is only one side of the cube. Decay times are equally or more important. I am about to load up my ceiling to wall junctions and front two tv wall vertical corners with 15x15 soffit traps filled with carefully placed pink fluffy insulation. The best bass absorber or any trap over 7 inches really. It provides the most absorption with its air flow resistivity properties. If you can get enough absorption in your room nulls can be helped. But sub placement and multiples are the most important.

I am still learning all of this but I think if a bass trap and enough are effective then it will absorb enough to cancel out wavelengths causing room modes. That is a slightly educated guess though as I am still in a rookie state of learning. I won't pretend to know something I don't smile.gif
One helpful thing is with your room dimensions it is possible to figure out you length and width room modes and where exactly they will be smile.gif.
Edited by jlpowell84 - 11/11/13 at 1:26am
post #1063 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

So I'm thinking of building a couple of those tapped anarchy horns. You guys think it'll play nice with my os? I was going to use it more as an mbm.

Yea you can use a mini dsp to set a filter on the low end. Could you set them up front say equally symmetrical with your room and to the MLP? That is another thing. Symmetry is the number one starting ingredient of good room acoustics across the board. Before you start with sub placement, room treatments, electronic EQ's. A perfectly or as close as you can get to symmetrical is the foundation to good room acoustics.

So let me ask. How is the symmetry of your room? If not so good, can you, would you be willing to rotate your layout? It would be the single most beneficial thing you can ever do, and it only costs nothing but a little sweat smile.gif
post #1064 of 1182
The sub distance tweak procedure I haven't done myself because I have yet to have a crossover issue (null). The biggest Audyssey poster is KBarnes. His icon is a guy with a big ear lol. Click on the fact in his signature (the info at the bottom every time he posts like mine says my HT). If you don't find it just search the Audyssey thread and then if all fails just pm him. smile.gif

Symmetry though...
post #1065 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Yea you can use a mini dsp to set a filter on the low end. Could you set them up front say equally symmetrical with your room and to the MLP? That is another thing. Symmetry is the number one starting ingredient of good room acoustics across the board. Before you start with sub placement, room treatments, electronic EQ's. A perfectly or as close as you can get to symmetrical is the foundation to good room acoustics.

So let me ask. How is the symmetry of your room? If not so good, can you, would you be willing to rotate your layout? It would be the single most beneficial thing you can ever do, and it only costs nothing but a little sweat smile.gif
Hey thanks for all the useful info, it's appreciated. Unfortunately since this is my living room I cannot do much in the way of sub placement. I only have room for a single os so as far as multiples go I would have to go with one or maybe two smaller ones up front. Maybe two twelves or two fifteens up front? I need stands for LCR anyway haha
post #1066 of 1182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

Hey thanks for all the useful info, it's appreciated. Unfortunately since this is my living room I cannot do much in the way of sub placement. I only have room for a single os so as far as multiples go I would have to go with one or maybe two smaller ones up front. Maybe two twelves or two fifteens up front? I need stands for LCR anyway haha

When I was moving things around this past weekend, I moved a single OS to the front center of the room and played some music/movie demos with just the single OS in that position. The bass was almost completely neutered at the LP. Only one seat (the one or the same side as the horn exit) had any bass to speak of.

So without careful placement, even an OS can be a less than stellar performer.
Edited by RMK! - 11/13/13 at 10:25am
post #1067 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

Hey thanks for all the useful info, it's appreciated. Unfortunately since this is my living room I cannot do much in the way of sub placement. I only have room for a single os so as far as multiples go I would have to go with one or maybe two smaller ones up front. Maybe two twelves or two fifteens up front? I need stands for LCR anyway haha

You bet!
post #1068 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

When I was moving things around this past weekend, I moved a single OS to the front center of the room and played some music/movie demos with just the single OS in that position. The bass was almost completely neutered at the LP. Only one seat (the one or the same side as the horn exit) had any bass to speak of.

So without careful placement, even an OS can be a less than stellar performer.
Unfortunately I am very limited to my placement.
post #1069 of 1182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

Unfortunately I am very limited to my placement.

That is an issue with the OS. Not easily disguised ...

I hope you can find a workable location.
post #1070 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That is an issue with the OS. Not easily disguised ...

I hope you can find a workable location.
Haha yea it definitely isn't easy to hide. I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep it where it is at now and just add one or two more subs to try and fix that 70hz dip I'm having. Now I just have to figure out what sub to use that will match sonically with my os.

Also, someone with a minidsp able to help me out on which plugin to get? I'm probably going to pick up the balanced 2x4 unless there is an overwhelming reason to get the 4x10? I'm looking to use the auto eq function of rew for my os and one or two other subs. I might add a couple mbm later on also.
post #1071 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

Haha yea it definitely isn't easy to hide. I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep it where it is at now and just add one or two more subs to try and fix that 70hz dip I'm having. Now I just have to figure out what sub to use that will match sonically with my os.

Also, someone with a minidsp able to help me out on which plugin to get? I'm probably going to pick up the balanced 2x4 unless there is an overwhelming reason to get the 4x10? I'm looking to use the auto eq function of rew for my os and one or two other subs. I might add a couple mbm later on also.
the advanced 4 way plug in allow you to take one sub out from your pre pro and individually control up to four subs for input level, param EQ, Crossover types, delay and out put level. It is a nice easy to use interface. If it weren't for the phoenix connectors I would give it a 5 of 5 rating.
post #1072 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

the advanced 4 way plug in allow you to take one sub out from your pre pro and individually control up to four subs for input level, param EQ, Crossover types, delay and out put level. It is a nice easy to use interface. If it weren't for the phoenix connectors I would give it a 5 of 5 rating.
Advanced 4 way it is then, thanks! Yea I'm not liking the whole Phoenix connector thing either. Don't know why they don't just supply one with xlr or RCA. I'd even pay more for it.
post #1073 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

Advanced 4 way it is then, thanks! Yea I'm not liking the whole Phoenix connector thing either. Don't know why they don't just supply one with xlr or RCA. I'd even pay more for it.

http://www.minidsp.com/products/opendrc-series/opendrc-di
post #1074 of 1182
I'm building a house and will be assisting the election running wire for the theater in a couple weeks. For speakers I'm going all JTRs. The 212s and Slanted 8HTs are standard binding post hookups and I see that the OSs use XLR connections. The subs will get their input from a miniDSP which has RCA females. Is there any known problem running this 50' Male RCA/XLR cable from Monoprice? http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=115&cp_id=11509&cs_id=1150902&p_id=4782&seq=1&format=2

Thanks in advance.

Buzz
post #1075 of 1182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I'm building a house and will be assisting the election running wire for the theater in a couple weeks. For speakers I'm going all JTRs. The 212s and Slanted 8HTs are standard binding post hookups and I see that the OSs use XLR connections. The subs will get their input from a miniDSP which has RCA females. Is there any known problem running this 50' Male RCA/XLR cable from Monoprice? http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=115&cp_id=11509&cs_id=1150902&p_id=4782&seq=1&format=2

Thanks in advance.

Buzz

Looks like a killer system Buzz cool.gif. I am using end to end XLR normally but I did run an RCA to XLR a couple of weekends ago when testing different locations for the OS's. That connector combo worked fine although the default level was down a bit( 3db?) with the RCA out on my Integra SSP.
post #1076 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Looks like a killer system Buzz cool.gif. I am using end to end XLR normally but I did run an RCA to XLR a couple of weekends ago when testing different locations for the OS's. That connector combo worked fine although the default level was down a bit( 3db?) with the RCA out on my Integra SSP.

Do I have any options? The miniDSP is all RCA and my receiver is a Denon X4000 with RCS for the sub outputs.
post #1077 of 1182
What do you guys think of the qsc dsp-30? It sure does flatten things out with so many filters.
post #1078 of 1182
Quote:
That one doesn't play well with auto eq function of rew frown.gif
post #1079 of 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I'm building a house and will be assisting the election running wire for the theater in a couple weeks. For speakers I'm going all JTRs. The 212s and Slanted 8HTs are standard binding post hookups and I see that the OSs use XLR connections. The subs will get their input from a miniDSP which has RCA females. Is there any known problem running this 50' Male RCA/XLR cable from Monoprice? http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=115&cp_id=11509&cs_id=1150902&p_id=4782&seq=1&format=2

Thanks in advance.

Buzz
I'm using the 35' with no problems.
post #1080 of 1182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Do I have any options? The miniDSP is all RCA and my receiver is a Denon X4000 with RCS for the sub outputs.

Minus XLR output on your AVR probably not worth pursuing. The gain (level) delta of RCA vs XLR balanced will never be noticed.
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