Originally Posted by GrandPixel
Weather or not it can be handled/installed without damaging the house is up to the home owner and installer. You can't rule it out for everyone just because it weighs 200 lbs.
It's not "ruled out", just "advised" due to many ...not one or two considerations. Leastwise at the size and thicknesses prescribed.
Are you saying that a material that is designed to be used as a kitchen counter-top is not durable? that it will mark up, have defects, chip easily, and not be cleanable? I know lots of people who clean their kitchen counters, and they hold up pretty well to kitchen activities. I would hate to see what would happen to a kitchen counter that has been painted for use as a projector screen, especially gatorboard.
Well, you see laminates that are made to be such a Flat, matte White surface have always shown blemishes, scuffs, and yes...absorbed stains. WA-DW not excluded. The laminate Thread is long...but I've followed it from the beginning.
In circumstances where I needed a larger than usual smooth white surface to receive a painted coating, as well as without paint...I've used WA-DW myself...about 4 times total, and found it capable, but too limited in use for the build-cost-performance ratio. It took no stretch to realize the need for care in mounting....gluing...in drilling...even in transporting/handling and cleaning. And a good many people have posted about all of that....discussions have been engaged in...hey, it's all there. I know a good bit of it all ...but I can understand if you don't. There's a lot to absorb, and sometimes I'm guilty of just doling out too abruptly.
So much can happen, go wrong, or already be wrong. But that is not to say it's "always" wrong. For those who were looking for a Scope Screen build with a radius curved frame, it was about as ideal a surface as could be asked for. And well worth the "known" issues.
The use of WA-DW has been around for sometime. MUCH longer actually. It's biggest Fans were/still are those who are using ultra high contrast PJs (CRTs) that have lower lumen levels. And curved Scope Screens.
That combination also speaks of the need to keep the lights way down, if not off.
Digital PJs using Anamorphic lenses -and- curved screens, another more recent group (3-4 yrs old) who have used it quite frequently.
Those with dedicated Theaters and PJ ranging from low budget LCDs to 15$K plus 3 chip DLPs have used it.....Flat and framed...but why? Because it was among
the best...and it's the only other "No Paint" solution save Black Out Cloth (BOC), that could offer up a size beyond 130" diagonal in 16:9
Please understand I have helped many Members make & use WA-DW screens, both Framed and "Direct to the Wall" mounted. I do in fact have both the personal experience and also the collective knowledge of having read the Laminate threads for 5+ years, so I'm not making any "claims" but rather I'm telling you facts...both the warty ones and the silk purse variety.
Recently, the advent of HighLumen Output / High Contrast PJs reintroduces a already well known trait of WA-DW. Reflectivity almost to excess. My people were/have been steered away from WA-DW because their PJs were just too bright.
Higher lumen PJs...digitals with 1500+ lumens, find that they must out of necessity run on Low Lamp with WA-DW lest the image dynamics suffer. "Hot spotting" isn't the correct description, more like "washing contrast out". Crazily enough, I've read accounts just recently that a BOC screen (.85 gain) actually was adjudged to have superior overall performance when hit by a Epson 9500ub on High Lamp (calibrated) than a Stewart ST130 (1.3 gain) getting hit by the same PJ on Low Lamp (calibrated) I found it hard to believe until I reasoned out why. Under those circumstances, one screen had the advantage.
And why will it only work in an ideal environment with a projector that has a specific resolution, a minimum contrast, and a specific range of lumens?
I never said it would "only" work under ideal conditions...just that it needs such "ideal circumstances" to work at it's best. Few who use it would beg to differ...it's not what anyone would call "flexible' in it's use.
So what's "less than ideal"?
*White reflective screen in darkened room with Light colored walls and ceiling. Not good. Screen will recapture it's own reflection. Image will suffer 'washing out".
*Lower Lumen PJ...Big screen, and the presence of any artifical or natural lighting at or above very low ambient levels. Not good. Image will suffer 'washing out".
*Almost any PJ on Normal Lamp, dark colored wall & ceiling, moderate ambient light/low direct light. Not good. Image will suffer 'washing out".
Basically, and I'll admit this freely, my chief issue is that it's White. And white belongs in the Dark, with Dark surroundings, and the recipient of an image where contrast will not be compromised by outside (off the screen) influences. I personally see the future of Projection as being far more multifaceted than only for Dedicated Theater applications, and the DIY solutions having been found for "less than ideal" circumstances would seem to offer both a wider ispread of problem solving ability, as well as better overall performance. Those attributes also make even more of a case for the use of such attributes in the Dark.
But all of that is directed at an application that I did not mean nor intend to disparage. Just advise, and point out considerations to be...considered. Perhaps...if not indeed a bit too adamantly.
You are welcome to make claims and say things like WA DW is prone to marks, chips, and defects, and won't clean etc, or that it will only work with mid-lumen projectors at 1080p etc, but you have to demonstrate claims with facts or logic or personal experience or other evidence.
All are well known, and have been made known to a great many via a great many postings by a lot of people. Along with a lot of good things to say as well. Once again, please excuse me for drawing upon the reservoir of experience, and holding it up against yet more varied examples. That what I do.
Same with MDF and warping - if you have knowledge that says it will warp, that's fine - go ahead and say so - but tell us where you got this knowledge and share it, don't just say "MDF will warp, therefore it isn't a good solution".
Same thing. I say what I do because I've been there, done that...and have read many corresponding tales of the same over the last 8 years+. Thin MDF will not warp as quickly as will particle board absorb moisture and buckle (rise) at the surface....unless you prime/paint only one side under which case it will...as it dries... bow outward so quick you'll want to cry. Unsupported, such a Board will treat any application of a sealed surface the exact same way...in reverse. The unsealed side will absorb moisture and bow out.
My goodness...1/4" would be bad enough...but 1/8" MDF as a "sheet" would be very susceptible to warp-age and bowing even unpainted after and degree of time hanging vertically. How much would depend upon different factors present. Times might vary widely.
Certainly thicker material will resist warp-age (bowing...all the same) far longer but then that weight issue comes roaring back big time.
BTW, you might make note I advocate the use of 3.25" x 3/8" MDF base Board Trim for use as Screen Trim when wrapped in Black Velvet. But in the end, that MDF is thoroughly nailed into place around the Screen's perimeter. I wouldn't want to walk through a House that got so damp inside that nailed-in-place MDF started to swell, bow, and pull off.
The original purpose of this thread was to find a solid 5'x12' material to use as a support for laminate. The point is that you don't have to build a frame to use WA DW. The result is supposed to be a screen that is easy to install - no cutting, no painting, no building - and is very flat with a superb image.
You need to read the Title again, as well as your first paragraph.
Let me assist;
Thread Titlelist of solid 5' x 12' materials for paint or laminate
Many solid materials are available in only 4'x8' or 5'x10' sizes, and so it would be useful to compile a list of solid 5'x12' materials. These make for an easy 2.40:1 ratio, 156" diagonal (150"+ with border and about 120" with 16x9 content), and can be used for painting or mounting laminate. It can be a very easy/simple solution, no cutting involved, for a large and very flat screen with potential for a really great picture.
Ooops. I'm just sayin.......
I responded in kind, and pointed out what I know to be potential
issues. I did dump some pain on WA-DW, (...and hence what I've come to see as being your preferred choice...) and waxed a bit vitriolic on my strong points because I hate to see anyone go down a wrong, mistaken, or otherwise ill-advised path. I was coming back to write about being apologetic over having led the thread astray by commenting so pointedly about WA-DW. But now....it seems to be the Wind is blowing a different direction altogether.
Again, the point is that we are looking for material to be used as support for WA DW without building a frame. Will gator board support 5'x12' laminate?
If that was the sole intent of your Thread, what's the big idea of leading me on !!!!!! The nerve! Ya know I'm kidding there...right
Ok...really, I see now where you actual interests lay. And if I'd seen that, I'd of simply been advising you of the logistics of backing the WA-DW like I've done many others....successfully. And that would be that the only rigid material I have ever come across (...and I've looked widely...) that fits your bill would be 1/2" Laminated "Waffle Foam Core" Aluminum panels. Laminators Inc. (.com) Same panels they use to trim the outside of High Rise buildings with. A 12' x 5' sheet...in a variety of Baked on Colors and Brushed Metal finishes...would cost $490.00 before you sell you child for the shipping costs.
Maybe more. It's not a "In The Supply Chain" sort of item.
As I said before....I looked...for similar and wholly different reasons. If your thread conjures up something viable, now I'll admit it would be a very desirable find for many to consider if widely distributed and affordable.
But I'm still probably a'gonna squirt all over it iffin' ya do.
[quote]Not sure what you are saying here.[quote]
Hopefully now you do.
How many WA-DW installations have you done? What makes you say it's not the best solution? From what I have read in the forums, it is one of the best solutions.
Consider your own words. "One of the best' does not mean "The Best" so my saying WA-DW is not "The Best" would be correct under those guidelines. I don't think you can actually quote me as saying that though....nor that I ever said it would work only
under ideal circumstances, ....or that it could not
be cleaned....it can...but only with the right stuff...yet even then it must be done with some degree of care because it's not being used as a Counter Top anymore, but a Projection Screen surface that is supposed to be as flawless as it possibly be.
Even a faint smudge can become a thing of torment on a otherwise splendid image. Especially if it cannot be removed.
If you know otherwise, please tell us, but please provide some evidence or reasons why it's not a great solution.
I've laid it all out pretty much. And from what "you have read", you've been duly impressed. but a close...through read tells the whole story, and that is where I'm coming from. a place you've yet to visit. It's a long a winding path...a lot of hours spent staring at small words. And Brother...that's just one thread.
I've read and participated in hundreds, and I can and do correlate all the things I've read, learned, done, and experienced and use that knowledge to help me draft my own posts.
Not to say I'm always spot on correct...or even 'spotty', but some few things I do know much about, and building screens in the best manner possible using the best materials (...as in practically...) is something i literally live and breathe most days. It's not a hobby.
Sometimes I do try to foster off a bit of my own enthusiasm to a Noob to get 'em pumped and excited. But always for that singular good reason, and few will ever, or could ever say that helping someone acomplishing such at a DIY'ers price point without making any compromises isn't paramount to my personal idea of what I can offer as help to any who are willing or needful of such.
I appreciate your input, but the point is that I am trying to compile a list of 5'x12' materials. That's all.
Of let's not go there again!
I know that now.
If you decide to consider making a composite supporting Substrate, and pretty inexpensively too, I have just the ticket. Otherwise, and beyond the Laminated Aluminum, I'm afraid little exist that meets the needed criteria.
And no offense taken by anything said, by you or me I hope. It's not personal, and I'm glad for your contributions to the community here.
Well I'm probably more in need of worrying about what your thinking/feeling than you are of me. I don't make Brownie Points by being the anti-thesis of someone's hopes and dreams. I always try to help...not hinder. Sometimes when one has to explain themselves, things can get way out of whack...and far off topic. Usually when there is a misunderstanding that goes unchecked.
You don't know me that well, perhaps at most on a level more commensurate to how much you've read on the DIY Forum. You cannot know the extent of all my Screen involvements, on & off the Forum, and so I should not...nor do I take offense in your asking me why I feel or say the things I do.
On the other hand, I failed to fathom the real intent of your thread or how it was directed at your finding (...and helping others to find as well...) viable materials to back 12' wide screens. Nope. I focused on what might make a screen look better...or worse than expected...and to me, using any of the materials listed carries more concerns and considerations (ie: risks) at those extreme sizes than the worth of the material itself.
So in that I apologize. I'll be glad to strike my posts to whatever extent you let me know via PM so your thread can be re-dedicated to it's purpose. and my offer to provide you with a diagram of how to assemble a 3/8" thick x 12.2' x 62" Hardboard Backer Board for the WA-DW (...for about $60.00...) will always stand.