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25 Hz filter on BD DTS tracks? - Page 2

post #31 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

Great thread here and also the initial post in the PB13 Ultra thread. I would have never even known about this pathetic "trend" otherwise.

This just saved me $2000 I was going to spend on upgrading to a PB13 Ultra. Now I can put that $2000 to MUCH better use.

I can't say I'm surprised that studio's are doing this.... par for the course to screw the consumer. It's what they're best at.

This type of **** justifies piracy.

Cheers!

My friend...even with bass from 25-80hz you won't find a better sub for the money than the PB-13. I wouldn't trade it for the world....even if they put in filters at 25hz in a few blurays!


PLUS...we have only found this to be true on a handful of Blu-Rays...there are FAR MORE that have sub 25hz LFE than those are having this glitch! Seriously....we have found 2...maybe 3 that have this problem.

The PB-13 is the best investment I've made in my theater hands down. Even over my projector that costs way more! And lucky for you the PB-13 is only $1600!
post #32 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

My friend...even with bass from 25-80hz you won't find a better sub for the money than the PB-13. I wouldn't trade it for the world....even if they put in filters at 25hz!

The entire point of upgrading to a PB13 Ultra for me is for its sub-25hz earth-shattering performance. My current sub fares very well in my room with all but the lowest frequencies. It would be a massive waste of money to go and spend $2000 on a PB13 Ultra if studios are just going to gimp their "lossless" audio tracks on Blu-Ray with sub-25hz filters. Kind of entirely defeats the purpose of upgrading to a bigger/more powerful sub.

I could now spend that same $2000 to completely treat my room acoustically with panels/bass traps/diffusion. Hell... even before I knew about this trend I was having a tough time justifying a PB13 Ultra over room treatments... but now it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb....

And to those who think studios give a damn and will actually listen, may I ask.... what are you smoking? And where can I get some?
post #33 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

20th Cent Fox made both Avatar and M&C. Think that has something to do with it?

I DO.

So I have sent two separate emails to them complaining about the blu-ray version.
You should too!!!

foxmovies@fox.com

If we flood them with complaints maybe something might happen!

I did my part!
post #34 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

The entire point of upgrading to a PB13 Ultra for me is for its sub-25hz earth-shattering performance. My current sub fares very well in my room with all but the lowest frequencies. It would be a massive waste of money to go and spend $2000 on a PB13 Ultra if studios are just going to gimp their "lossless" audio tracks on Blu-Ray with sub-25hz filters. Kind of entirely defeats the purpose of upgrading to a bigger/more powerful sub.

I could now spend that same $2000 to completely treat my room acoustically with panels/bass traps/diffusion. Hell... even before I knew about this trend I was having a tough time justifying a PB13 Ultra over room treatments... but now it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb....

And to those who think studios give a damn and will actually listen, may I ask.... what are you smoking? And where can I get some?

In all due respect, there are so many great audio tracks that have significant below 25hz content. To not purchase this sub based on what little info we have on 3!?! possible problematic tracks is insane.
post #35 of 928
This, to me, is a very troubling development. I can't yet get my head around it in understanding the rationale.

I'd like to know simply how this even came to be (particularly with marquis release titles)?

If this becomes a trend, this would be very problematic for all of us as DTS tracks are the norm on Blu Ray.
post #36 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

The entire point of upgrading to a PB13 Ultra for me is for its sub-25hz earth-shattering performance. My current sub fares very well in my room with all but the lowest frequencies. It would be a massive waste of money to go and spend $2000 on a PB13 Ultra if studios are just going to gimp their "lossless" audio tracks on Blu-Ray with sub-25hz filters. Kind of entirely defeats the purpose of upgrading to a bigger/more powerful sub.

I could now spend that same $2000 to completely treat my room acoustically with panels/bass traps/diffusion. Hell... even before I knew about this trend I was having a tough time justifying a PB13 Ultra over room treatments... but now it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb....

And to those who think studios give a damn and will actually listen, may I ask.... what are you smoking? And where can I get some?

I agree with you on that.

Will it make any difference if we start to 'swamp' complaints to these studios as well as requesting those subwoofer companies to voice their concerns about the 25Hz filter?

I posted at the Blu-ray thread about it. Now, I am going to send e-mails to the studios. Man, they should have a clear mind about lossless audio.
post #37 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

In all due respect, there are so many great audio tracks that have significant below 25hz content. To not purchase this sub based on what little info we have on 3!?! possible problematic tracks is insane.

True. But I've already seen 90% of them so that point essentially becomes moot. I'm concerned about new movies which I have yet to watch.

My Blu-Ray collection is about 50 large. I am not going to be purchasing the majority of my DVD's over again. I rarely, if ever, spin my old DVD's and even new Blu-Ray's (aside from a select few) more than once or twice.

I'm pretty much at the point now where I just watch recent movies as they are coming out on Blu-Ray. I would not be able to forgive myself if I purchased a PB13 Ultra only to realize this "trend" really is a trend and that many of the Blu-Ray's I'm watching are seeing absolutely no benefit from my owning a PB13 Ultra.

While it is true that we are only really aware of a handful of titles that suffer from this travesty, I really don't think it's insane to put-off purchasing a PB13 Ultra after becoming aware of this. What would be insane is to purchase one without knowing if this is truly going to be a recurring issue from now on or not. I mean.... if Avatar suffers from this, considering it's pedigree, I think we should all be worried. We may no longer even need big-box subs capable of sub-15hz.

Of course.... I am absolutely praying that this is a (somewhat) isolated series of events.

Better safe than sorry, no?
post #38 of 928
Studios have been dropping the ball a lot with blu-rays in my opinion. Over the years, there are many titles that got pushed back with release dates still pending.

I wonder if the War of the Worlds BR will get the same treatment. Looks like it may be a wise idea to hang on to the DVD version and just rent the BR version before making any purchases.

Either way, calling something "lossless" when it clearly looses what was meant to be there is just plain false advertising.

I remember the days of passing up the original DVDs, just so I could buy the DTS version. Never thought the day would come, where I might pass up the Lossless DTS-HD-MA track for a Lossy one or Lossy DD.
post #39 of 928
Anyone done a comparison on the LOTR blu-ray triology and the original releases? Particularly I wonder about the scene about 40 minutes in when the Ring Wraith flaps his wings on Two Towers. I remember on the original release how much air was moved in the room. And on the Blu-Ray I braced myself for it and it was kind of like a fire cracker than never managed to quite go off. I'd love to see a graph comparing the two.
post #40 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

The entire point of upgrading to a PB13 Ultra for me is for its sub-25hz earth-shattering performance. My current sub fares very well in my room with all but the lowest frequencies. It would be a massive waste of money to go and spend $2000 on a PB13 Ultra if studios are just going to gimp their "lossless" audio tracks on Blu-Ray with sub-25hz filters. Kind of entirely defeats the purpose of upgrading to a bigger/more powerful sub.

I could now spend that same $2000 to completely treat my room acoustically with panels/bass traps/diffusion. Hell... even before I knew about this trend I was having a tough time justifying a PB13 Ultra over room treatments... but now it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb....

And to those who think studios give a damn and will actually listen, may I ask.... what are you smoking? And where can I get some?

I wouldnt jump the gun sorta speak theres still many BD out there with subsonic bass, theres only handful suffering from this 25hz issue. You will still prosper with the Ultra depending on what sub your currently running the Ultra is very accurate threw many areas. Anyway unless your trying to talk your self out of upgrading your sub I wouldnt be to concerned because im sure they'll be many BD in the future with 25 hz and lower LFE . Just my 2 cents I wouldnt let it change your mind on the Ultra or any other high Quailty sub made to rock your world. Dont get me wrong this is something that should be addressed and looked closer at but I wouldnt blow it out of proportion but take a closer look at the situation .
post #41 of 928
I will even go so far as to say that those of you who enjoy HIGH QUALITY A/V get it while you can (ie. now) because it won't be around for long.

With the digital age and the younger generation of kids and teens, it seems to be blatantly obvious we are rapidly moving from a quality > convenience outlook to a convenience > quality outlook.

Look at MP3. Look at current Digital Distribution. Look at online streaming. You're essentially paying 85% of physical media price, and actually receiving LESS. Dark days ahead I fear....

Nobody seems to care about quality anymore they just want it fast/cheap/small and as long as it looks good on their 3" phone screens and sounds good on their MP3 players they're happy.

Rant over.
post #42 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

In all due respect, there are so many great audio tracks that have significant below 25hz content. To not purchase this sub based on what little info we have on 3!?! possible problematic tracks is insane.

Well said !!
post #43 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

My friend...even with bass from 25-80hz you won't find a better sub for the money than the PB-13.

Hehe, I kinda disagree. Former PB 13 Ultra owner here.

I picked up 2 Rythmik D15SE's for the price of one 13 Ultra. A 13" cone(even ported), just cannot keep up with a PAIR of 15" downfiring drivers for raw output.
post #44 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

This type of **** justifies piracy.
Cheers!

I talked to someone that owns a bootleg copy of AVATAR.. they have yet to compare it with the bluray copy but they did mention that there was enormous bass when the HOME TREE hit the ground...
post #45 of 928
I actually wonder if this is a mastering error, since it only seems to occur with certain DTS-HDMA tracks. Maybe the DTS-HDMA encoder had a setting wrong or something.

If Fox actually tried to do a recall, that would be >2.7 million Avatar Blu-ray discs they would have to reel back in and replace. Ouch.

Either way, I'm not going to throw my PC13-Ultra in the trash because of a few possibly bad discs. There are plenty of movies out there with bass the size of Texas.
post #46 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

In all due respect, there are so many great audio tracks that have significant below 25hz content. To not purchase this sub based on what little info we have on 3!?! possible problematic tracks is insane.



My point exactly!

I'm just trying to raise awareness on a few Favoirte Blu-Rays and trying to keep our eyes peeled to see if we find any others.

Cloverfield doesn't have ANY filter on BluRay!!
post #47 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxht View Post

I agree with you on that.

Will it make any difference if we start to 'swamp' complaints to these studios as well as requesting those subwoofer companies to voice their concerns about the 25Hz filter?

I posted at the Blu-ray thread about it. Now, I am going to send e-mails to the studios. Man, they should have a clear mind about lossless audio.

IMO, as more is learned about this, voicing concern to the various sub manufacturers may be even more effective. If they see a the potential customer base for their high dollar subs drying up, I'd expect they would exert whatever pressure they could (however small it may be) on the parties responsible for the blu-ray audio mixes.
post #48 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

I will even go so far as to say that those of you who enjoy HIGH QUALITY A/V get it while you can (ie. now) because it won't be around for long.

With the digital age and the younger generation of kids and teens, it seems to be blatantly obvious we are rapidly moving from a quality > convenience outlook to a convenience > quality outlook.

Look at MP3. Look at current Digital Distribution. Look at online streaming. You're essentially paying 85% of physical media price, and actually receiving LESS. Dark days ahead I fear....

Nobody seems to care about quality anymore they just want it fast/cheap/small and as long as it looks good on their 3" phone screens and sounds good on their MP3 players they're happy.

Rant over.

if no one seems to care about audio quality and the studios will continue to dumb down the bluray/DVD transfers then I see this as being a slippery slope.. everyone in the industry will be affected.... from the average audiophile to the owner of a dedicated in-home theater to the companies making these awesome speakers and subs....

we might as well save our money and purchase HTIB or get a BOSE system.....

something has to be done.. emails must be sent.. companies must protest... whats the purpose of haveing a sub that can do 15hz at 120db if it will never ever play it due to someones idea of a 25hz filter... WTF!!!!
post #49 of 928
I doubt that there would be a recall. Whats more likely to happen is an new release with the 'extra' features so we can all buy the discs again. I'm waiting till fall to buy this one.
post #50 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterkit View Post

I doubt that there would be a recall. Whats more likely to happen is an new release with the 'extra' features so we can all buy the discs again. I'm waiting till fall to buy this one.

usually im all for extended versions, but the theatrical version was about an hour too long IMO so there's no way I could sit through more Avatar... oh well
post #51 of 928
Quote:


we might as well save our money and purchase HTIB or get a BOSE system.....

Its a Sony Conspiracy! They want everyone to just buy BOSE
post #52 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaejw1 View Post

if no one seems to care about audio quality and the studios will continue to dumb down the bluray/DVD transfers then I see this as being a slippery slope.. everyone in the industry will be affected.... from the average audiophile to the owner of a dedicated in-home theater to the companies making these awesome speakers and subs....

we might as well save our money and purchase HTIB or get a BOSE system.....

something has to be done.. emails must be sent.. companies must protest... whats the purpose of haveing a sub that can do 15hz at 120db if it will never ever play it due to someones idea of a 25hz filter... WTF!!!!

The problem here is that the actual number of folks that are outraged by the lack of bass on certain releases is going to be so statistically small that it is unlikely to make a difference to the companies putting out the discs.
post #53 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFactor View Post

I wouldnt jump the gun sorta speak theres still many BD out there with subsonic bass, theres only handful suffering from this 25hz issue. You will still prosper with the Ultra depending on what sub your currently running the Ultra is very accurate threw many areas. Anyway unless your trying to talk your self out of upgrading your sub I wouldnt be to concerned because im sure they'll be many BD in the future with 25 hz and lower LFE . Just my 2 cents I wouldnt let it change your mind on the Ultra or any other high Quailty sub made to rock your world. Dont get me wrong this is something that should be addressed and looked closer at but I wouldnt blow it out of proportion but take a closer look at the situation .

We should pay very close attention to all new releases. This could be a long term issue.
post #54 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

So far we have three major instances of this dead stop of LFE at 25hz.

Avatar, Master and Commander and LOTR.

If these three have this...more are bound to have it.

The only way we can tell is to watch them and listen, but to REALLY find out running a waterfall graph of the actual information encoded on the disc will confirm this.

This has been done on these discs and it is clear there is a filter at 25hz.

My question is WHY and how do we get around this?

Can we indeed watch the movie on Blu Ray and simply bitstream the DTS core and still achieve the REAL sound without the 25hz filter? I'll take a LOWER bitrate to have the sub 25hz LFE anyday!

While I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this was true, in my quick look at the other discussions, I've only seen reference to using optical or coax outputs which would always be a downmix from the higher res BluRay formats. It certainly could be the case, but has this been confirmed by someone with a modern pre-pro that the same results were found using all different connections on all english language formats on the discs?

I recall that with the original DVD releases of M&C, The Haunting and Open Range the Dolby Digital sountracks were no where near as loud in the bass nor as impressive as when you switched to the DTS soundtrack, which was obviously mixed more aggressively (ie much more than format quality differences). I believe it's very important to sort out the variables before we string up the format or the studios. Anyone remember the realization of how Dolby Digital "protected" systems that were set to phantom center, no surrounds or no sub with dynamic range compression? Details matter here.
post #55 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

While I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this was true, in my quick look at the other discussions, I've only seen reference to using optical or coax outputs which would always be a downmix from the higher res BluRay formats. It certainly could be the case, but has this been confirmed by someone with a modern pre-pro that the same results were found using all different connections on all english language formats on the discs?

I recall that with the original DVD releases of M&C, The Haunting and Open Range the Dolby Digital sountracks were no where near as loud in the bass nor as impressive as when you switched to the DTS soundtrack, which was obviously mixed more aggressively (ie much more than format quality differences). I believe it's very important to sort out the variables before we string up the format or the studios. Anyone remember the realization of how Dolby Digital "protected" systems that were set to phantom center, no surrounds or no sub with dynamic range compression? Details matter here.

i was thinking the same thing about DTS LFE getting mixed extra hot on dvd's but bosso's waterfall of the dvd is the dolby digital mix

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...8&postcount=68
post #56 of 928
Anytime I have watched a movie in DTS, it has been hotter then Dolby 5.1.

Bill
post #57 of 928
All of my movies are over HDMI and PCM. I never watch a bluray using optical.

Also..if the original M&C DTS track was "hot" wouldnt that also translate to the DTS-MA track. DTS is simply the CORE of the DTS-MA.

I don't we are finding this lack of 25hz bass because of PCM/bitstream or HDMI/Optical error. It simply is there.

So Mark..why do you think M&C in DTS-MA is missing EVERYTHING below 25 hz? Why is Avatar the same way? I really think 20th Cent Fox is remixing them for HT this way on purpose.

We don't want that!
post #58 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The problem here is that the actual number of folks that are outraged by the lack of bass on certain releases is going to be so statistically small that it is unlikely to make a difference to the companies putting out the discs.

well i hope companies like Ed or HSU, Svs,, etc. would ask why to the sound production company that downmixed this....
but if they are so concerned about the average consumer then why not have an option like most other video.. dolby 5.1 / DTS HD... makes perfect sense....

also if a person with a HTIB will it mix the DTS ... it appears that only those with real systems will have a rcvr capable (or find it money well spent) of decoding DTS...

i just hope they redo this new release for november since they have time to work on it. and give the consumer the option to play in dolby or dts... give me the option to blow my subs up
.
post #59 of 928
I simply want the BEST Video and Audio. I don't want someone else determining if my system can handle it. IT CAN and I want the BEST...not some filtered version!

To me... It is like the government or auto makers putting a limiter on our CARS and TRUCKS so they cannot go past the max speed limit of 65-70mph (depending on your state)!!! This country would be OUTRAGED, even though speeding over those speeds is not legal.
post #60 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

thehun -- Or the source (remastered or not) was filtered to eliminate the real low frequency LFE. It almost sounds like somebody decided to apply a 25Hz filter to protect the "masses" from blowing out their woofers (or the subs in their "economy" HTIBs).

Nobody thought to put a warning label on the BDs instead. I have a Telarc CD of the 1812 Overture with just such a warning label (the real canons firing in the finale are awsome).

As I mentioned, in the Ultra 13 thread, my Laserdisc of the IMAX "The Dream is Alive" could rattle my windows & walls during the first shuttle lift-off. The DVD version appeared to be severely filtered too (my silent sub was a really big disappointment).

RE: your comment on Paramount BDs. Does that mean we need to set our AVR/Pre-Pro to "both" in order to hear what should be in the LFE channel? The theatrical mixes should have plenty of low frequency info (if it wasn't filtered).

Paramount don't do near field mixes, but the bass management should be set like you would always depending of the capability of your speakers. I would never set it to "both".

Some DVDs soundtrack might have been filtered or remixed, and butchered, and the same can be made about some BR titles, and LD's as well. There is no industry wide even studio wide practice that intentionally do this. Look at the hundreds of waterfalls that members had put up, tell me that filtering DVD's vs LD is evident on them, well guess what the same will be true for BR. There will be a few isolated cases, but nothing to loose sleep about. Relax people.
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