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25 Hz filter on BD DTS tracks? - Page 3

post #61 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

All of my movies are over HDMI and PCM. I never watch a bluray using optical.

Also..if the original M&C DTS track was "hot" wouldnt that also translate to the DTS-MA track. DTS is simply the CORE of the DTS-MA.

I don't we are finding this lack of 25hz bass because of PCM/bitstream or HDMI/Optical error. It simply is there.

So Mark..why do you think M&C in DTS-MA is missing EVERYTHING below 25 hz? Why is Avatar the same way? I really think 20th Cent Fox is remixing them for HT this way on purpose.

We don't want that!

I'm not saying it isn't the case, but rather in the posting thus far I had not seen many other configurations or exploration of settings to confirm where the issues are or are not.

There are thousands of examples of terrible choices made in mixing music, plenty of oversights in movie soundtracks, so this wouldn't surprise me at all. That said, if we want to get vocal about the issues, it's important to have done a thorough job of troubleshooting so you can't be brushed off as having a setting wrong, etc.

Since the movies were all under the 20th Century' umbrella, it would be interesting to see if they were all mastered in the same studio.
post #62 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Gotta get the limited edition JP with the DTS track.

The DD sucks...the DTS track is pretty great (for a 90s flick).

And if you have the DTS version look up the old threads on here because there was a defective DTS version and we actually got NEW DVDs with the corrected version.


The DD version is the same as the DTS once it was corrected [recalled] they both now identical to the DD LD which was sourced from theatrical master without altering it unlike the, DTS LD which was sweetened of both the surround and the LFE.

Oh and JP is a Universal title, at least in the US it is.
post #63 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post

That could explain it. I doubt netflix uses limited edition copies for its purposes. I remember something similar with The Haunting. The DD was absolutely worthless and I'm told the dts is much better.

Well those of you who thinks HT mixes are "the root of all evil" take note, that the DTS ES discrete of the Haunting was completely redone for that release. It wasn't just remixed, it was remastered to 24bit as well.[the theatrical master was 20bit] before it was encoded to ES Discrete, which is not a theatrical format.
post #64 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

So Mark..why do you think M&C in DTS-MA is missing EVERYTHING below 25 hz? Why is Avatar the same way? I really think 20th Cent Fox is remixing them for HT this way on purpose.

We don't want that!

To answer this specifically, I wouldn't be surprised if some wimpy or overly concerned mix engineer listened to it on a system and decided "That's not supposed to be there!" If you had a system which overloaded or didn't reproduce the VLF range well this could happen, just as it could happen if the monitoring system had excessive low end dialed in.

Being someone making subwoofers capable of 10-12Hz high output, believe me, I'm interested. I'd just rather the arguments and complaints be made from a more authoritative foundation. This might have already been done here, but I just didn't come across it in my quick perusal and this would be a good place to collect such information.
post #65 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

i was thinking the same thing about DTS LFE getting mixed extra hot on dvd's but bosso's waterfall of the dvd is the dolby digital mix

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...8&postcount=68

He also posted the DVD's DTS track and the BD's English DTS core, and the French DD also from the BD. Using optical as opposed to HDMI. He also measured them at the LP, so it wasn't a direct from the sound card, like most RTAs being created directly from the disc, but rather as an acoustic grab. They all show a different results, not just bass amplitude and extension, but content wise as well.
post #66 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

To answer this specifically, I wouldn't be surprised if some wimpy or overly concerned mix engineer listened to it on a system and decided "That's not supposed to be there!" If you had a system which overloaded or didn't reproduce the VLF range well this could happen, just as it could happen if the monitoring system had excessive low end dialed in.

The first thing that popped into my head when this started getting discussed was that someone was trying to avoid distortion due to high levels. Using a 25Hz filter will allow the boosting of the remaining freq, would it not? So maybe the desired effect is to boost overall levels, not limit VLF? I don't defend such a practice, but I understand it. The unwashed masses want to hear their subs booming and wouldn't know the difference if it was filtered below 25Hz.
post #67 of 928
Maybe for movies like Master and Commander, we should use the Blu ray for the picture and play the DVD at the same time for the audio. That way we'll have the better picture and LFE. Of course, the challenge will be to push "play" and start both discs at the same time. =)
post #68 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

The DD version is the same as the DTS once it was corrected [recalled] they both now identical to the DD LD which was sourced from theatrical master without altering it unlike the, DTS LD which was sweetened of both the surround and the LFE.

Oh and JP is a Universal title, at least in the US it is.


Sorry..but you are incorrect.

The DD version is NOT the same as the corrected DTS version.

The ORIGINAL DTS version was WEAKER in LFE than the DD version. The Fixed DTS version is much more aggressive and hotter than the DD version and 10 times better than the original DTS version.
post #69 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Sorry..but you are incorrect.

The DD version is NOT the same as the corrected DTS version.

The ORIGINAL DTS version was WEAKER in LFE than the DD version. The Fixed DTS version is much more aggressive and hotter than the DD version and 10 times better than the original DTS version.

The corrected version DTS was sourced from the same master as the DD DVD. Now you're welcome to prefer the DTS version for any reason, but the fact remains, sorry.
post #70 of 928
Guys, guys, guys!

Give your heads a shake! You honestly think studios will give a damn about what they probably consider a bunch of geeks on an A/V Forum? They most likely consider us the minority and write us off.

Studios do what studios want regardless of how many disgruntled e-mails they receive. It's all about dollars. The problem is we're a niche group of people us "audiophiles".... 95% of regular people are using puny HTIB's if they even have surround sound at all, let alone a capable subwoofer.

Studios will always cater to the masses and completely dis-regard the minority. Standard practice in the government, too .

On a side note, great to see Mark Seaton here taking notice.

Cheers!
post #71 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

Guys, guys, guys!

Give your heads a shake! You honestly think studios will give a damn about what they probably consider a bunch of geeks on an A/V Forum? They most likely consider us the minority and write us off.

Studios do what studios want regardless of how many disgruntled e-mails they receive. It's all about dollars. The problem is we're a niche group of people us "audiophiles".... 95% of regular people are using puny HTIB's if they even have surround sound at all, let alone a capable subwoofer.

Studios will always cater to the masses and completely dis-regard the minority. Standard practice in the government, too .

Cheers!


Except that the studios really gain nothing by rolling off the extreme lows. SO if they're developing a bad habit, and they can be convinced to staop, it's no skin off their noses, right? Anybody heard about class action lawsuits or even widespread complaints that the low end in DVDs or BRs has damaged anybody's sub? While the studios, or some people involved in mixing/remixing could have suddenly become worried, if it's a false worry, then consumer pressure may work.

To not be written off as crackpots, I think Mark Seaton's cautious approach makes sense. If anything, understate, don't overstate, just raise the questions, make the points where you can. If a bunch of people write in and say "they rolled off the whole avatar movie below 25 Hz," and it gets enough publicity for the studio to respond, they can just say "look at these scenes with strong content below 25 Hz. Clearly these guys don't know what they're talking about."

Not really my fight right now becausmy sub doesn't do much with the sub 25 or so content in any movie. BUt it is bothersome.
post #72 of 928
i certainly hope they aren't filtering content below 25hz, heck if its them worrying about dead subs, the makers need to incorporate a high pass filter, instead of making exaggerated claims of what their subs are capable of. It probably more is laziness then anything that they filtered it out at 25hz, less work for them i would think.
post #73 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It happened on Avatar(special HT mix) and from what little experience I have LOTR:ROTK. My DVD is much better with the LFE on that one. I hope it is a rumor because there are 3 movies that I know of that seem filtered. Maybe they are exceptions and not the rule.

The Lord of the Rings extended cut DVD's were all new mixes for 6.1 discrete. They had GOBS of bass, more so than the theatrical cuts. I just hope WB doesn't screw up the extended edition soundtracks.

And I'm not against near-field home theater mixes as long as they are IMPROVEMENTS over the original theatrical mix. Good 7.1 remixing, better over all use of the surround field, fixing commercial theater EQ settings, fixing glitches (like clipping distortions, less than spectacular ADR integration, etc.) not heard in the giant sound mixing stage setting, etc.

You know, mixed for high end theater systems that can resolve the subtle nuances as well as take the brute punishment.

Yes, sometimes even the theatrical mix is not the end-all, be-all. Things can get rushed and overlooked like with any other product.

What I am against is dumbing things down for anyone's Bose "system."
post #74 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post


What I am against is dumbing things down for anyone's Bose "system."

it's probably worse than that

most people don't even have bose. most don't even have ht in a box

most people are watching with the speakers that are built into their plastic tv

the people mixing these movies must know that tv's bose htib all have hp filters already

it really makes no sense
post #75 of 928
Quote:


it really makes no sense

well, the majority of people do make many mistakes while working on a daily basis. There is no reason to hold mixing engineers to any higher standards.

They would never know either during their listening tests since their setups seldom include subwoofers that have performance below 25Hz.

Maybe they should be using spectral analysis like many do on here to double check low end content.

Here is to hoping there is an answer and maybe some mixing engineers are reading this topic.
post #76 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

well, the majority of people do make many mistakes while working on a daily basis. There is no reason to hold mixing engineers to any higher standards.

They would never know either during their listening tests since their setups seldom include subwoofers that have performance below 25Hz.

Maybe they should be using spectral analysis like many do on here to double check low end content.


Here is to hoping there is an answer and maybe some mixing engineers are reading this topic.

That's just the thing, Penn. They probably do do that because they might then overload their subwoofer system with bass it cannot handle. They see some strong content below the cutoff of their system and filter it all. Doesn't seem right to filter the actual track instead of just highpassing the content of the audio on their side instead of keeping the master recordings themselves unfiltered.

Somehow I think we are probably over thinking this "situation". This is a critically small amount of films that are "lacking in <25hz". Pffftt.... whatever guys. I don't remember Avatar having spectacular bass and those that remember lots of bass weren't feeling <25hz and the local cineplex or IMAX. It was all more than likely way higher than that. M&C, I will bet, is more of an isolated incident.
post #77 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post


They would never know either during their listening tests since their setups seldom include subwoofers that have performance below 25Hz.

Maybe they should be using spectral analysis like many do on here to double check low end content.


surely these guys are professionals...and have the appropriate tools to do their job in a professional manner

could this be their first rodeo...?

i doubt it

i don't understand...why...or how...it could happen

it is a true ass-chapper...it needs to be nipped in the bud
post #78 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

That's just the thing, Penn. They probably do do that because they might then overload their subwoofer system with bass it cannot handle. They see some strong content below the cutoff of their system and filter it all. Doesn't seem right to filter the actual track instead of just highpassing the content of the audio on their side instead of keeping the master recordings themselves unfiltered.

Somehow I think we are probably over thinking this "situation". This is a critically small amount of films that are "lacking in <25hz". Pffftt.... whatever guys. I don't remember Avatar having spectacular bass and those that remember lots of bass weren't feeling <25hz and the local cineplex or IMAX. It was all more than likely way higher than that. M&C, I will bet, is more of an isolated incident.

There are claims that the LOTR: ROTK BR has this same problem.
post #79 of 928
This really sucks. Another reason to hold off on buying Avatar BD.
It would be helpful is someone can actually do a test on Avatar bass test.
post #80 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post



Just look at these. One is M&C on DVD with DTS...the other is on BluRay with DTS-MA.

(this is from a member named Bosso...he gets credit for doing the leg work of graphing these for us.)

This is from the Australian Bluray, DTS-MA first battle scene:



Here is an old one from the DVD which I sold (dts track), the color pallets and graph speed dont match but to me the content looks pretty similar:



Can anyone tell me why my graphs look pixellated? The graph of the aussie bluray is made up of rectangles but my old graph from another computer looks smooth like Bosso's graphs??

I'll do a few more scenes when my laptop is charged up.

I also have the Australian release LOTR trilogy on Bluray and DVD, let me know what scenes you want to see tested.

Hakka.
post #81 of 928
Guys I said the ROTK LFE was lacking and sound like they had a filter but it could be just much lower spl with no filter. I never measured. All I know is that one of the scenes(elephant battle) had minimal bass impact from the BR and the DVD EE in DTS-es was demo material. Whether which ne is more accurate remains to be seen but we are all used to watching it with lots of quality LFE. The bluray is supposed to be better not worse.
post #82 of 928
I find it kind of amusing how none of the "professional" reviews of M&C mention the lack of LFE. A lot of them even reference the old DTS DVD during the audio portion of their review yet still don't mention it. Most give it perfect or near-perfect scoring.

Aren't these people supposed to have hifi home theaters with more-than-competent gear? I guess it speaks to the fact that most people don't even notice or care about this type of thing, even "pro" reviewers. If some of them had caught on and mentioned it in their reviews then there might be a better chance of something being done about it.

I have not yet even watched the BD of M&C it's still sealed in my shelf, I'll probably return it as I only bought it a few months ago. Funny thing is, I was waiting until I got my PB13 Ultra....
post #83 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

I find it kind of amusing how none of the "professional" reviews of M&C mention the lack of LFE. A lot of them even reference the old DTS DVD during the audio portion of their review yet still don't mention it. Most give it perfect or near-perfect scoring.

Aren't these people supposed to have hifi home theaters with more-than-competent gear? I guess it speaks to the fact that most people don't even notice or care about this type of thing, even "pro" reviewers. If some of them had caught on and mentioned it in their reviews then there might be a better chance of something being done about it.

I have not yet even watched the BD of M&C it's still sealed in my shelf, I'll probably return it as I only bought it a few months ago. Funny thing is, I was waiting until I got my PB13 Ultra....



Maybe the reviewers have equipment that works properly. Here is a 2008 review.


Master and Commander review here



"The Audio: Rating the Sound


The movie won an Oscar for Best Sound Editing and was nominated for Sound Mixing as well. The DTS track on the DVD was a knockout, and the Blu-ray's lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track likewise brings the house down. The mix is incredibly immersive from start to finish, during quiet scenes and battles alike. The entire soundstage is constantly active with creaking and groaning noises of the ship, or the sounds of water lapping and sloshing with pinpoint directionality from the sides and rears. There are even a couple of instances where I swore that the tromping of feet on the upper decks came from the center of my ceiling. Though technically only encoded as 5.1, when decoded with ProLogic IIx processing the track will give a full 7.1 speaker configuration quite a workout. When the battles rage, thunderous cannon fire tears through the room from front to back, wood splintering in every direction upon impact. The bass is punishing, yet always clean and precise.

If I have any small complaint, it's that the surround channels are sometimes a bit too loud and attention-grabbing, when a little subtlety may have been more effective. Dialogue can also get drowned out by the atmospherics, especially in the loudest sequences. Regardless, the 'Master and Commander' soundtrack is a stunner, and exactly the sort of thing that home theater was made for."
post #84 of 928
Return of the king Australian Bluray vs DVD:









The laptop was on ac power when I did the dvd chapter 37 so there's a bit of electrical noise showing up as green around 10hz and 50hz.

Here's the final cannon battle from Master and Commander, color pallette is different to the above graphs:



Hakka.
post #85 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Maybe the reviewers have equipment that works properly. Here is a 2008 review.


Master and Commander review here



"The Audio: Rating the Sound


The movie won an Oscar for Best Sound Editing and was nominated for Sound Mixing as well. The DTS track on the DVD was a knockout, and the Blu-ray's lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track likewise brings the house down. The mix is incredibly immersive from start to finish, during quiet scenes and battles alike. The entire soundstage is constantly active with creaking and groaning noises of the ship, or the sounds of water lapping and sloshing with pinpoint directionality from the sides and rears. There are even a couple of instances where I swore that the tromping of feet on the upper decks came from the center of my ceiling. Though technically only encoded as 5.1, when decoded with ProLogic IIx processing the track will give a full 7.1 speaker configuration quite a workout. When the battles rage, thunderous cannon fire tears through the room from front to back, wood splintering in every direction upon impact. The bass is punishing, yet always clean and precise.

If I have any small complaint, it's that the surround channels are sometimes a bit too loud and attention-grabbing, when a little subtlety may have been more effective. Dialogue can also get drowned out by the atmospherics, especially in the loudest sequences. Regardless, the 'Master and Commander' soundtrack is a stunner, and exactly the sort of thing that home theater was made for."


I must have missed the measurements in that "review". Can you point them out please?


Oh, and I'm sure the reviewer's EIGHT INCH CSW Basscube 8 sub really plumbs the depths of this movie... considering current version of that sub is rated down to a whopping 39hz.
post #86 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Maybe the reviewers have equipment that works properly. Here is a 2008 review.


Master and Commander review here



"The Audio: Rating the Sound


The movie won an Oscar for Best Sound Editing and was nominated for Sound Mixing as well. The DTS track on the DVD was a knockout, and the Blu-ray's lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track likewise brings the house down. The mix is incredibly immersive from start to finish, during quiet scenes and battles alike. The entire soundstage is constantly active with creaking and groaning noises of the ship, or the sounds of water lapping and sloshing with pinpoint directionality from the sides and rears. There are even a couple of instances where I swore that the tromping of feet on the upper decks came from the center of my ceiling. Though technically only encoded as 5.1, when decoded with ProLogic IIx processing the track will give a full 7.1 speaker configuration quite a workout. When the battles rage, thunderous cannon fire tears through the room from front to back, wood splintering in every direction upon impact. The bass is punishing, yet always clean and precise.

If I have any small complaint, it's that the surround channels are sometimes a bit too loud and attention-grabbing, when a little subtlety may have been more effective. Dialogue can also get drowned out by the atmospherics, especially in the loudest sequences. Regardless, the 'Master and Commander' soundtrack is a stunner, and exactly the sort of thing that home theater was made for."


Your comment about "maybe they have equipment that works properly" is offensive to me and probably everyone else who has taken countless hours setting up and properly dialing in our systems. Just because I don't have a piece of paper that says I'm a sound engineer doesn't mean I don't know how to calibrate a home theater....Although my Masters in Technology probably helps!

Anyone that reviews the DTS-MA and says the LFE is equal to the DVD DTS version is WRONG, mislead, and should have their review privileges revoked!
post #87 of 928
Hakka, you can adjust that pixelation on speclabs options-fft settings-fft-decimate imput by divisor, but i think you found it already?
post #88 of 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Your comment about "maybe they have equipment that works properly" is offensive to me and probably everyone else who has taken countless hours setting up and properly dialing in our systems. Just because I don't have a piece of paper that says I'm a sound engineer doesn't mean I don't know how to calibrate a home theater....Although my Masters in Technology probably helps!

Anyone that reviews the DTS-MA and says the LFE is equal to the DVD DTS version is WRONG, mislead, and should have their review privileges revoked!



Master and Commander Blue Ray is not a recent release. Two years worth of Blue Ray discs being defective is not likely!


I guess that I must insist that YOU should start the revocation procedure by demanding that Ralph Potts from the AVS forum should have his review privileges revoked.



Ralph Potts AVS forum Blue Ray recommended List


AUDIO:


post #89 of 928
I also wonder why the AVS forum members have been oblivious the the Master and Commander Blue Ray audio issue for the past few years. Master and Cfommander is still in the top tier list, and this is the third update to the list!

Do the vast majority of AVS members have their heads burried in the sand?


AVS Forum Blue Ray Audio Tier version 3 here
post #90 of 928
How does having equipment that works properly take away infrasonic bass?
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