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35mm = 4K (in dlp chips) - Page 2

post #31 of 45
11/27/10 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Agree 100%......I too see them on BD any closer than around 3x screen heights on an average encode.

I was saying 4K source material on a 4K machine,

I hope we get to experience 4k source as a media in our lifetime or 12 bit BD. That would be easy to digest!!
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post #32 of 45
11/27/10 at 9:18pm
My crystal ball says . . .

We will see 4K displays (LCD/PDP) in the next 5 to 7 years. Their primary use will be for Auto 3D (to get multiple 1080P views) and upscaling HD to 4K.

I don't see 4K content in the same time period.
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post #33 of 45
11/28/10 at 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

So if you had true 4K resolution in your local theater, everybody would have to sitting in the first 6 rows. Otherwise they wouldn't see any extra detail. [/b]Their eyes wouldn't LET them see it. You know this intuitively from passing by these beautiful new monitors at trade shows. You find yourself getting absolutely as close as possible to see the detail, and to see if there are any visible artifacts. [b]At normal viewing distances, you can't.

So the whole 2K 4K thing is a little bit of a red herring.

The article talks as if every human being had the same eyesight - which is obviously not the case. Also there are different opinions on how near you need to sit to be able to see a resolution benefit. This article sure is on the low side of the scale (meaning it claims you need to sit nearer than some other articles say). The more important question IMHO is: How near can we sit without seeing individual pixels with 2K projection? Because that is not what we want: We do *not* want to see individual pixels - that would create aliasing and make the image look digital. So the question is not: How near do we need to sit to see the full benefit of 4K? Instead the question needs to be: How near can we sit with 2K projection, without seeing individual pixels?

One argument for 4K projection is that for 2K content it allows you to do sub pixel convergence control without any negative side effects. Furthermore it allows scaling of 2K content for anamorphic lenses with a factor of 2x or higher, which is a factor where scaling has more benefits than artifacts. With 2K projection the anamorphic stretch is a scaling factor of 1.33x which is in an area where it's not clear whether scaling artifacts are lower or higher than the scaling benefits.
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post #34 of 45
11/28/10 at 2:26am
Thread Starter 
Alan and Highjinx,

You keep on driving that point and in all conscience I cannot concurr, and am compelled to an unbiased candid retort (based on 12 month extended viewing sessions).

So here I go.

For 1080p/2k:

If you had spent a year watching every BD out there on a DCI machine, you would realize you are both WRONG!!!!!.. It is not as bad as you make it sound. With a really great projector you are enjoying so much in image quality parameters that the noise you guys are focused on gets passed on by the eyes as either organic or minor, in other words it is not the super image deal breaker you portray it to be, at least on a post reference projector.





The larger the better. The visual benefits of increasing screen size on a Digital Cinema Projector greatly outweigh the negative perception of mpeg errors by a factor of 5 to 6 to 1. Never ever fear this I say....with the Barco's and the new Nec looked specially great too.



Alan I know you must have seen this theaters design documents, yet you keep on saying essentially that it wont work well in the front row. Are you a gambling man? Cause those seats in the front are my money seats.



Now 4k which essentially frame quadruples 1080p may/will soften up detail in some/most content, that is where some detail enhancement/unsharp mask may be needed. The New NEC had the best 15 foot wide image at ShowEast as compared to the Christie. Barco was 65 feet so not fair to compare. But yes there were some ugly LOSSY DRAB 2k4 upscaled images from Harry potter. On the other hand Yogi Bear was proof positive that is perfectly fantastic to upscale properly mastered 2k content to 4k.

There will definitely be a need for Teranex type boxes on 4K Installs for 1080p sources.

And yes I have been seeing the benefits of DCI larger file sizes on the Barco's and it is great, hopefully we will have access to the DELUXE DCI Satellite Network at home soon, but that is just a very minor part of the sources, Satellite (with a good scaler and Blu-rays , the majority of the discs look fantastic at less than one screen width). Perhaps the real benefit of DCI at home is that more looks better.
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post #35 of 45
11/28/10 at 12:23pm
Peter BDs 8bit limitation in itself contributes its own set of issues beyond compression artifacts not seen with DCI content. Hopefully someday soon we will move beyond these bottlenecks whether D cinema makes it to the home for the elite or a new platform beyond BD arrives for all to enjoy. I see consumer content as the weak link in the chain, nothing can fix it only mask it. Yes, for demo purpose and movie viewing there are some good looking BDs out there but I will continue my campaign for something better that is truly big screen certified.
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post #36 of 45
11/28/10 at 1:01pm
I don't think 8bit is the real bottleneck here. It can be worked around quite nicely by using dithering. The real bottleneck with Blu-Ray IMHO is the craptastic DNR and EE processing many studios are using.
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post #37 of 45
11/28/10 at 9:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Peter BDs 8bit limitation in itself contributes its own set of issues beyond compression artifacts not seen with DCI content. Hopefully someday soon we will move beyond these bottlenecks whether D cinema makes it to the home for the elite or a new platform beyond BD arrives for all to enjoy. I see consumer content as the weak link in the chain, nothing can fix it only mask it. Yes, for demo purpose and movie viewing there are some good looking BDs out there but I will continue my campaign for something better that is truly big screen certified.

I would think the biggest differnce between consumer HD and DCI are the video codecs used for compression.

Can you really compare MPEG4/VC-1 to Motion JPEG 2000?

Which one do you think more closely resembles the master file's PQ before any compression is done?

And isn't the dynamic range higher/greater for DCI than it is for BD?
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post #38 of 45
11/28/10 at 10:05pm
at the end of the day... we are only at the doorstep of the quality that can be realized over time in the 2k res. we have so far to go on both sides of the equation that even hoping for home 4k is just silly.
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post #39 of 45
11/28/10 at 10:56pm
Peter, next time you have a spare DCI unit that is gathering dust, I'll take it of you.....

But seriously, you'd have access to DCI material without a doubt. Surely the increased bandwidth, bitrate & color depth would be a significantly better viewing experience than the BR version of the 'same material'...even enabling one to sit at even closer viewing ratios?
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post #40 of 45
11/29/10 at 7:40am
Thread Starter 
I Dunno....

All the movies that are out in 3D, the Blu-ray looks equal or better due to the more optimal setups at Prometheus, Wolfgang's etc... Not having that silver screen giant hotspot is half the battle.Zero Ghosting, it's incredible.

I really don't see the problem you are complaining about, considering I reinvented "sitting closer to the screen" with the work on the lab and the CEDIA BOOTH this year. I love watching reruns of Bewitched at one screen high.

NOT AN ISSUE FOR MY CLIENTS!!!! And yes we are working on our first DELUXE Satellite download install so watch me back track next spring, but for now...
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post #41 of 45
11/29/10 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

at the end of the day... we are only at the doorstep of the quality that can be realized over time in the 2k res. we have so far to go on both sides of the equation that even hoping for home 4k is just silly.

You have mentioned this before and I don't totally disagree, but 4k cameras will be cheap or prevalent enough in the next five to ten years that there should be a good deal of 4k content even if it is just home movies. While 2k can get better, I am not the only one who thought the JVC 4k pj with 4k content looked incredible.
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post #42 of 45
12/7/10 at 9:30pm
What about 4k content projected by high-grade 2k unit?

I would think that would result in an incredible picture, too.
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post #43 of 45
12/7/10 at 11:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emf View Post

What about 4k content projected by high-grade 2k unit?

I would think that would result in an incredible picture, too.

Really good Blu-Rays were scanned at 4K or higher and are then downscaled for Blu-Ray authoring. I don't think there will be any difference between such a Blu-Ray and true 4K content, downscaled by the projector in realtime to 2K.
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post #44 of 45
12/8/10 at 12:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by emf View Post

What about 4k content projected by high-grade 2k unit?

I would think that would result in an incredible picture, too.

Will a professional 2K Digital Cinema projector (like a Christie or Barco) accept a 4K file?
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post #45 of 45
12/8/10 at 2:01am
I made a real push last year to get consumer rights to DCI content, and actually had a contingent deal with one of the top 5 studios to do it, given a minimum quantity of 60-100 systems (depending on how I packaged it). I could not find enough interested firms to get that agreement signed.

This would have been the first time consumers could purchase DCPs just like the cinemas do and get 12 bit low compression content for their homes.

Some potential issues we saw were that since the DCI came out, DCPs have been produced accordingly (12 bit, JPEG2000, 2K, 200MBPS). However for older titles the digital archives created are normally 100MBPS MPEG files. So even if you had a DCI quality system, most of the older content delivered on a studio sanctioned drive would still be of a lower quality than the DCPs (although better than BluRay for sure).

I do like the thought of the DCI sat boxes, and was also working with Fathom Events to add that to the mix on a home environment for live concerts, broadway shows, etc.

Does this still have legs? Most pros I talked to said they can't sell on quality any more, I thought that was sad.

Mark C
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