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The Official Panasonic HDC-HS/SD/TM700 Owners thread - Page 5

post #121 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpwooste View Post

Gary, I'm interested in a good editing solution for 1080p60. Is 1080p60 what you're doing with Pinnacle? Is it smooth, or is the editing, adding transitions, adjustment of the 1080p60 problematic? If it is smooth, what version of Pinnacle are you using, and can you provide the specs of your PC: CPU type, CPU speed, and video card, HDD/RAID etc. Thanks!

I don't use the 1080/60p, way too choppy on my PC.
post #122 of 1624
Acting on a tip here, I tried out a demo of "DVMP Pro" which does indeed read the TM700 .m2ts files and display f/stop and gain settings. Apparently shutter speed is not recorded since that line is blank (the program does display shutter speed on Sony XR500V files.)

It is a mystery why Panasonic records this info, and then does not provide a way to view it! So I need a $70 3rd party program to do it?

By the way, in "typical" indoor lighting where the Sony 500V is wide open +6 dB, and the Pana TM700 (in 1080p60 mode) is also wide open +6 dB, I don't see any obvious image quality advantage to the TM700. In brighter light of course, the TM700 has a clear advantage but for normal indoor light after sunset, in fact the TM700 image may be softer. This is with both cameras on full auto, I didn't play with any settings. This was a "real life" usage situation; I hope to have time to do a more careful comparison another time.
post #123 of 1624
When your shooting indoors and in auto, does the TM700 go to f/1.7 or f/1.5?
post #124 of 1624
Does anyone know if there's a way to set the photo shutter speed lower than 1/2s? Perhaps with a remote control attachment?
post #125 of 1624
I hope I have come to the right place, but I appologise if I am gate-crashing. I have a canon HF200 which came with Pixela Image Mixer 3 SE V5. I was wondering if any one can tell me how I can import JPEG still pictures into the software so that I can make a DVD which will be a mixture of movies from the camcorder and still shots?
Any suggestions will be gratefuly received.
Thanks
post #126 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeale View Post

By the way, in "typical" indoor lighting where the Sony 500V is wide open +6 dB, and the Pana TM700 (in 1080p60 mode) is also wide open +6 dB, I don't see any obvious image quality advantage to the TM700. In brighter light of course, the TM700 has a clear advantage but for normal indoor light after sunset, in fact the TM700 image may be softer. This is with both cameras on full auto, I didn't play with any settings. This was a "real life" usage situation; I hope to have time to do a more careful comparison another time.

Yes, the 700 does soften in very dim lighting, which isn't all that unusual for a camcorder. IMO it's more obvious on the 700 not because it softens more than some cameras, but because it starts out so damn sharp in good light that the softening becomes more obvious. As always, to avoid something like that and if the even is important enough, use a light.
post #127 of 1624
I can't figure this out, my AF assist lamp is on all the time even in movie mode. What do I do to turn this off?
post #128 of 1624
After hours of trying to get the AF assist light off, I finally disconnected the battery for a few hours and it's finally went off when I put the battery back on. I even reset the camera to default settings and it would not turn off. Even viewing movies from the camera left the light on. I have no idea what prompted that. Very weird.
post #129 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by rico90 View Post

If i use HDWriter to copy my 1080/50P files to my computer i get .m2ts files with some extra small files. If i put my memorycard in my computer i find my 1080/50P files to be .mts files. Why the difference in file extensions?

Anyone figure why this is and what the differences are?
post #130 of 1624
So what and how are owners sharing your 60p videos (besides plugging in your camera to the TV) to make sure your viewers get the best video quality? I would be interested to hear this.
post #131 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowmah View Post

So what and how are owners sharing your 60p videos (besides plugging in your camera to the TV) to make sure your viewers get the best video quality? I would be interested to hear this.


If you use a high end Core 2 Quad, or Core i7 PC you can playback 1080p60 smoothly within Panasonic's HD Writer AE. I have a Core 2 Quad that's running at 3.6Ghz and it works great with this software.

If you want to play the files in Windows 7 Media Player (or presumably, although I've seen no one claim it works, Windows Media Center). Ken says it works on his machine smoothly in WMP, using a Core i7-950. It doesn't run smoothly in my Core 2 Quad 3.6Ghz. It feels like it would be close to working in mine, and my processor is about 10% slower than a Core i7-950 and missing some of the latest instruction sets, so I would thus suggest the i7-950 may be the slowest processor that actually works.

Editing in Premiere seems to be even tougher. If you get the editing to work you can of course output to WMV files at 60fps, but there's a long amount of rendering involved, and I haven't been able to get previews and transitions to work in Premiere on my CPU, I don't think it's fast enough. So at this point editing in Premiere is somewhat theoretical. If you choose to render to uncompressed video, the only two formats I got to really work were 15GB/min and 20GB/min for the preview files, which are a massive RAID-0-only pain to deal with.

I downloaded the CS5 trial, it runs substantially better than CS4 on my same PC, it's close to usable in editing. However not quite. Unfortunately the trial isn't complete, and is missing many of the supported HD video formats, Adobe technical support claimed that it was due to licensing of some of the HD format codecs as to why the support isn't present in the trial.

Adobe did add that you could buy the product and get a full refund 30 days later if you weren't satisified. I think I'll probably try that in August or later when I have a full 30 days to actually try something out.

Honestly though, I couldn't get a straight answer out of Adobe as to whether they had native 1080p60 support for the Panasonic. I take that to mean "not currently" I would love to know if anyone has a full version and can confirm whether there is better support than in CS4.

Roland.
post #132 of 1624
Given I can't currently edit 1080p60, and that I need to shoot some real video that I will need to edit. Should I shoot in 1080p60 and down covert to 1080i HA, or shoot in HA to start off with?

I'm well aware of the benefits of actually having the 1080p60 so I can presumably edit it later, and also aware of the hassles of shooting in one format and spending about twice as long coverting it to the other.

However my question is purely one of image quality now. Which yields the best quality, shooting 1080p60 and coverting to 1080i HA, or shooting HA in the first place? Or are they mathematically identical?

Thanks
Roland.
post #133 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpwooste View Post

If you use a high end Core 2 Quad, or Core i7 PC you can playback 1080p60 smoothly within Panasonic's HD Writer AE. I have a Core 2 Quad that's running at 3.6Ghz and it works great with this software.

If you want to play the files in Windows 7 Media Player (or presumably, although I've seen no one claim it works, Windows Media Center). Ken says it works on his machine smoothly in WMP, using a Core i7-950. It doesn't run smoothly in my Core 2 Quad 3.6Ghz. It feels like it would be close to working in mine, and my processor is about 10% slower than a Core i7-950 and missing some of the latest instruction sets, so I would thus suggest the i7-950 may be the slowest processor that actually works.

Editing in Premiere seems to be even tougher. If you get the editing to work you can of course output to WMV files at 60fps, but there's a long amount of rendering involved, and I haven't been able to get previews and transitions to work in Premiere on my CPU, I don't think it's fast enough. So at this point editing in Premiere is somewhat theoretical. If you choose to render to uncompressed video, the only two formats I got to really work were 15GB/min and 20GB/min for the preview files, which are a massive RAID-0-only pain to deal with.

I downloaded the CS5 trial, it runs substantially better than CS4 on my same PC, it's close to usable in editing. However not quite. Unfortunately the trial isn't complete, and is missing many of the supported HD video formats, Adobe technical support claimed that it was due to licensing of some of the HD format codecs as to why the support isn't present in the trial.

Adobe did add that you could buy the product and get a full refund 30 days later if you weren't satisified. I think I'll probably try that in August or later when I have a full 30 days to actually try something out.

Honestly though, I couldn't get a straight answer out of Adobe as to whether they had native 1080p60 support for the Panasonic. I take that to mean "not currently" I would love to know if anyone has a full version and can confirm whether there is better support than in CS4.

Roland.

" I would thus suggest the i7-950 may be the slowest processor that actually works."

I have a new i7 920/1366/12 Gig Ram system I just built and have no problems playing back impressive 1080/60p video using HD Writer...this had better be so, as I just spent a bunch of $$ building this computer specifically for my TM700!

Rick
post #134 of 1624
My 2.4GHz Core2Duo processor works perfectly fine playing back the 1080 60p files. Your computer has to be set up properly.

Now as far as editing goes in my CS4, doable but I really need CS5 and a quad core processor would definitely help a lot.
post #135 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpwooste View Post

Given I can't currently edit 1080p60, and that I need to shoot some real video that I will need to edit. Should I shoot in 1080p60 and down covert to 1080i HA, or shoot in HA to start off with?

I'm well aware of the benefits of actually having the 1080p60 so I can presumably edit it later, and also aware of the hassles of shooting in one format and spending about twice as long coverting it to the other.

However my question is purely one of image quality now. Which yields the best quality, shooting 1080p60 and coverting to 1080i HA, or shooting HA in the first place? Or are they mathematically identical?

Thanks
Roland.

Roland, my advice would be to shoot in the best quality you can. You'll never recapture those moments again, so why not shoot in the best quality?

You will have to convert the footage depending on the software or hardware you're using, but I think down the road you'll be glad you did.

As far as your test is concerned, I never tried that myself.
post #136 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich121 View Post

" I would thus suggest the i7-950 may be the slowest processor that actually works."

I have a new i7 920/1366/12 Gig Ram system I just built and have no problems playing back impressive 1080/60p video using HD Writer...this had better be so, as I just spent a bunch of $$ building this computer specifically for my TM700!

Rick

Good deal Rick. I think it's hard to generalize what processor is the absolute minimum as Paulo is using a dual-core and getting great playback. I think he is correct stating that the way the computer is setup is probably paramount.

I've got exactly the same processor Paulo has in my general purpose computer and I don't believe I'm getting the same smooth playback he is. I will say that since I started using the Splash Lite player, my playback has improved considerably.

I should mention though that I really only use the computer for 'testing' purposes and don't actually view my clips on the computer.
post #137 of 1624
Can someone post video examples of audio tests in a quiet environment, either indoors or out of when the fan noise is detectable? Then can you turn off surround sound on the on-board mic and also post these examples? If this dampens / removes the fan noise, I am sure this would help put to rest any doubts there are in this camcorder.
post #138 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich121 View Post

" I would thus suggest the i7-950 may be the slowest processor that actually works."

I have a new i7 920/1366/12 Gig Ram system I just built and have no problems playing back impressive 1080/60p video using HD Writer...this had better be so, as I just spent a bunch of $$ building this computer specifically for my TM700!

Rick

Actually I said that a high end Core 2 Quad or any Core i7 should work smoothly with 1080p60 using HD Writer AE. My Core 2 Quad 3.6Ghz does. My Core 2 Duo 3.33Ghz doesn't.

My thoughts of needing a Core i7-950 is related specifically to playback in either Windows Media Player or Windows Media Center (which appear less efficient than HD Writer AE). Can you confirm that with your i7-920 you get completely smooth playback of rapidly moving subjects (panning, people moving) using either WMP or WMC? On mine it seems like it works, except when there's a lot of movement and then it becomes obvious that some frames are being dropped.

Paulo's results are however contrary to any others I've heard, so I'm very curious what additional drivers he may be using.

Roland.
post #139 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowmah View Post

Can someone post video examples of audio tests in a quiet environment, either indoors or out of when the fan noise is detectable? Then can you turn off surround sound on the on-board mic and also post these examples? If this dampens / removes the fan noise, I am sure this would help put to rest any doubts there are in this camcorder.

I tested the audio quite extensively. I have found that the Zoom Mic mode works best until you get really telephoto, at which point it only really records audio to the center channel. The Stereo mode works better at telephoto as you get stereo, and almost as well at wide. The surround picks up substantially more noise, and the focus mic mode uses only the center channel - so mono only.

I also tested two external mics, but ultimately concluded that while you could eliminate the fan noise by using external mics, the noise levels of the audio circuitry in the camera are very similar to the noise level of the internal mic picking up the fan! So the SN ratio didn't appear to be any different in my testing.

Much more details at this link:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18649112

Roland.
post #140 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpwooste View Post

I tested the audio quite extensively. I have found that the Zoom Mic mode works best until you get really telephoto, at which point it only really records audio to the center channel. The Stereo mode works better at telephoto as you get stereo, and almost as well at wide. The surround picks up substantially more noise, and the focus mic mode uses only the center channel - so mono only.

I also tested two external mics, but ultimately concluded that while you could eliminate the fan noise by using external mics, the noise levels of the audio circuitry in the camera are very similar to the noise level of the internal mic picking up the fan! So the SN ratio didn't appear to be any different in my testing.

Much more details at this link:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18649112

Roland.

Hey Roland,

Appreciate the feedback here. Great review of 2 externals plus the on-board. Sounds like you are using CS4 or 5 (since you have Soundbooth)? So do you use the bundled software to download video to your computer? If so, does CS5 play nice with the m2ts files?

In fact, could you post a before and after examples of using Soundbooth to remove the fan noise? That would be great.

Now, how do you share? ie. which preset do you use to export CS5 video? Which one would best keep the smooth panning advantage of the 60p videos?

Still debating on whether to purchase the TM700. Some of the video examples clearly show loud fan noise and not just in a quiet environment so I am a little afraid nonetheless.
post #141 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowmah View Post

Hey Roland,

Appreciate the feedback here. Great review of 2 externals plus the on-board. Sounds like you are using CS4 or 5 (since you have Soundbooth)? So do you use the bundled software to download video to your computer? If so, does CS5 play nice with the m2ts files?

In fact, could you post a before and after examples of using Soundbooth to remove the fan noise? That would be great.

Now, how do you share? ie. which preset do you use to export CS5 video? Which one would best keep the smooth panning advantage of the 60p videos?

Still debating on whether to purchase the TM700. Some of the video examples clearly show loud fan noise and not just in a quiet environment so I am a little afraid nonetheless.


I use HD Writer AE to copy the files from the camera to the computer. I have an SD card reader and SD card, so I could just copy the MTS files, however, they are then unplayable by anything, so that doesn't seem like the best path. It seems the sensible option is to use HD Writer AE to covert them to m2ts files, as Premier seems to handle both files equally well (or not, as the case appears to be so far).

CS5 I have only tried the downloadable trial. It works better than CS4. But it is far from workable on my PC. The trial however is incomplete and lacks the Quicktime and other HD codecs that comes with the production version. So it's not a good test unfortunately.

With Premiere there are two sets of presets to mess around with, first is the project setup, which you have to create before you start the project. I've used the "Desktop" option, set the frame rate to 59.94, and set the size to 1920 by 1080, then used 60fps drop code for the timebase. Set the audio master to 5.1, and tried various preview settings. If you set it to either the 8bit or 10bit uncompressed formats you use around 16GB/min or 20GB/min for preview files, which unless you have a very fast RAID-0 array you disks won't keep up. The next hurdle appears to be the motherboard or chipset IO bus, as even though my disks can keep up, I can't smoothly play preview files. The other alternative is using MPEG I-Frames only for previews, this "works" i.e. it displays only the I-Frames (I think every 5th frame) but premiere fails to render transitions, so you're editing blind and can't preview any transitions or edits other than simple cuts. i.e. basically useless.

I hope CS5 is better, but the trial is so de-featured I couldn't verify that it is.

Then there are the output parameters when you export your timeline. The only format that I've found to actually work is Windows Media, choosing all the highest settings, however, I'm not entirely pleased with the quality.

I wish I knew the actual settings of the MPEG format of the original 1080p60 files, and could thus choose that format for the output from Premiere. I'm sure that would work best.
post #142 of 1624
I found out that "exiftool" can read metadata from M2TS files, including the aperture and gain setting from the TM700. Below is an example readout, from a few second-long clip in a dark room, so the camera was wide open:

K:\\TM700\\20100527>exiftool 20100527_222735.m2ts
ExifTool Version Number : 8.20
File Name : 20100527_222735.m2ts
Directory : .
File Size : 7.9 MB
File Modification Date/Time : 2010:05:27 22:28:27-07:00
File Permissions : rw-rw-rw-
File Type : M2TS
MIME Type : video/m2ts
Video Stream Type : H.264 Video
Audio Stream Type : A52/AC-3 Audio
Audio Bitrate : 384000
Surround Mode : Not indicated
Audio Channels : 3/2
Image Width : 1920
Image Height : 1080
Date/Time Original : 2010:05:27 22:27:35-08:00
Aperture Setting : 1.5
Gain : 18 dB
Exposure Program : Program AE
White Balance : Auto
Image Stabilization : On
Exposure Compensation : 0
Focal Length In 35mm Format : inf mm
Make : Panasonic
Audio Sample Rate : 48000
Image Size : 1920x1080

if you add the -ee option (-ExtractEmbedded) you get many pages of data, apparently the metadata recorded on each frame(!)

http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/
post #143 of 1624
Does anyone has a good experience with bundled HD Writer AE 2.1 software?

I'm trying to glue several small scenes (m2ts) files into one big file. But it seams that the software does not allow files bigger that 4Gig. If the file is bigger it cuts it in pieces 4Gig each. Also the PGS information from the big file is gone after the gluing excercise.

Anyone know a solution:
- to keep the final file big
- to keep the PGC information?

thank you
post #144 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeale View Post

I found out that "exiftool" can read metadata from M2TS files, including the aperture and gain setting from the TM700. Below is an example readout, from a few second-long clip in a dark room, so the camera was wide open:

It just would have been nice if Panasonic had let us read that data while viewing clips from the cam. I always liked that feature on some of my old Sonys. If you screwed up with something, you could always read the data and see where you might have gone wrong.

But at least it's nice to see there is a way to retrieve it. Thanks.
post #145 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It just would have been nice if Panasonic had let us read that data while viewing clips from the cam.

I hear you! Although you can do things like this, in a directory full of MTS files, to see what your typical exposure settings are (takes a while to run since it extracts data from every frame). Note f/16 is possible, but in auto mode, the TM700 does not go above f/8 even directly into the sun (too much diffraction loss, I guess). Note, I run WinXP but I have the cygwin text utilities for jobs like this:

exiftool -ee *.MTS | grep "Aperture" | cut -d":" -f2 | sed 's/ //' > fstop.txt
sort fstop.txt | uniq -c

count f/stop
968 1.5
374 1.7
484 2.0
2340 2.4
20222 2.8
24 3.4
26 4.0
22 4.8
6790 5.7
624 6.7
2206 8.0

LL
post #146 of 1624
Hello. I am considering this camcorder and had 2 quick questions:

(1) In 1080p60 mode, how long can one record on the 32GB flash drive?

(2) What type of SDHC cards do you guys use? Does one need the Samsung extreme III to accomodate the 28 bitrate?

Thanks,
Bill
post #147 of 1624
I use class 4 and have had no problems. Others are more comfortable with class 6, but you don't need the very expensive cards.

I'm not home, but I seem to recall you can get over 2 hours at 60p on a 32gig card. It may be more.
post #148 of 1624
I currently run Vegas pro 8.0 on an Intel Core2 Duo at 2.2 Ghz. It sounds (based on reading this thread) like I will have a very hard time editing 1080p60 files. Does anyone here have experience importing 1080p60 files to their computer, then using Vegas to render a 1080i file for use in editing? How does that look?

Also, I appreciate Kens feedback on SDHC cards and would love it if others would let me know their experiences as well. Kens answer kind of shocked me, as I would have thought that a camera taking video at 28 mbps would require a class 10 card, but he appears to be having success using a much slowed class 4 card.

Thanks,
Bill
post #149 of 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmaki View Post

Also, I appreciate Kens feedback on SDHC cards and would love it if others would let me know their experiences as well. Kens answer kind of shocked me, as I would have thought that a camera taking video at 28 mbps would require a class 10 card, but he appears to be having success using a much slowed class 4 card.

Thanks,
Bill

I have a Sandisk Ultra SD the kind rated for 15MB/s, but it's only Class 4, and works just fine with 1080p60.

Roland.
post #150 of 1624
Quote:


The Speed Class Rating is the official unit of speed measurement for SD Cards, defined by the SD Association. It is equal to 8 Mbit/s, and it measures the minimum write speeds based on "the best fragmented state where no memory unit is occupied

Class 4 - 4MBytes/s -> 32MBits /s

So, if 1080/60P bitrate is 28Mbits/s average, you might have trouble with scenes with lots of movement/panning that might peak over those 28Mbits.
Everyday "normal" footage should not reach those peaks.

If this is not right, please correct me.
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