The Official Panasonic HDC-HS/SD/TM700 Owners thread - Page 7

By the way Paulo... What is your workflow? Are your video straight from the camera? They look great!

I have never used a TM700 yet. Every time I find a 1080 50p or 60p clip, I'll add it to that group.
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Yes. This is exactly what you can do. Here's a test I ran yesterday:

1. 71 minutes of 1080p60 video on the built in memory.
2. Copied it to the SD card via the in-camera option (took 30 minutes) I think this clearly indicates my SanDisk Ultra 15MB/s Class 4 card is way more than sufficient for recording directly to.
3. Removed the SD card and put it in a card reader. Copied it to my HDD, 12.9GB, in 11 minutes
4. Deleted all files from the camera's built in memory
5. Put the SD card back in the camera
6. Used HD Writer AE to copy the 1080p MTS files and convert them into M2TS files (still 1080p60 though). This took around 13 minutes.
7. Removed the SD card from the camera (so now it has no data at all)
8. Used the camera to convert the 1080p60 files from one directory on the computer to another directory as 1080i files. This took 103 minutes. And would have been about 7x longer had I not used the camera to do the conversion.

Roland.

Seems cumbersome. Couldn't you just copy the 1080p files directly from the built-in disc to the computer hard drive. Delete the files from the camera and while still connecting the camera to the computer, convert the 1080p to 1080i on the computer? Maybe I'm not getting it?

Hey everyone! Since the other thread went berserk and was closed, I decided to come here.. After all, I'm in process of ordering my TM700, so I'm a fellow owner-to-be


Paulo, if you want to gather TM700 clips, you can send them my way.. I've got a little collection on http://hdcam.web-pda.info/ but I didn't have time last few weeks to search for more..

There have been several side by side comparisons regarding the Panasonic against the Sony 550 OIS.
Having taken up the various tips regarding holding the camcorder on this and similar forums I can honestly say that in all normal filming situations that the OIS on the Panasonic is all that one could wish for.If you want to film when walking when there is no possibilty of keeping the camcorder in the correct position then perhaps the Sony may be the better option,but I for one would only want to video in those circumstances if there was no alternative.
I am not a technically minded person but I do recognise a good quality video or photograph.
Today I took some video in the garden both in 1080i and 1080p using a combination of static shots,slow pans and zooms.Perhaps I have taken the superb 1080p picture quality for granted but the difference between 1080i and 1080p was very noticeable.The detail was increased and the zoom and slow pans were rock steady.My partner described the difference as though the 1080i video was marginally out of focus.
Charles

I've just tried CS5 a little, and what I did was following:
- created new project
- created new sequence
- picked the closest preset (1920x1080 30p etc)
- went to General tab
- in editing mode selected Desktop
- in timebase selected 60 fps
- tweak whatever else you need

I've just done a couple of quicks tests, but output video looks great. Haven't gone to details to check if it's very different from raw video, but I think I maybe have the test file on my computer.. Got to go out now, but I'll try to remember tomorrow to look it up and if I find it I'll post it. Original is on my web page, as I've got no TM700, so I've tried with other people's recordings.

and all my fears have gone away!!! I am amazed! I have been a SONY fanboy, but I just could not get over the price and the 60p video. I felt like a traitor, but I don't regret it...

With all the talk about the power needed to handle 1080p/60p video, I was somewhat worried about my 3 year-old double boot (WinXP/OS X) Intel Macbook being able to handle or even play the video. Well, it worked great. I recorded a few 1 min or so video at 1080p/60p, booted up WinXP on my Mac (in order to run the Panasonic HD software), transfer the video clips in a few seconds from the camera, and was able to play them with ease. Then I transfered the RAW videos to to my PS3 and they played flawlessly. The camera is very nice and light, and the video at 60p is amazing. I will keep experimenting as the day goes by, but so far, I am impressed!!!! And happy that I don't have to buy an i7 core computer for now. Basic editing worked fine. Maybe in the future when I decide to get fancier I will need a better computer. For now, this would do.

All in all, the last hour with my camera has been a pleasure. Now on to read the manual to learn all the settings and menus.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!

By the way, my computer is also able to convert the 60p video to AVCHD with ease and no problems.

Recording only to the internal 32 GB flash, the camera reports available recording time as 2 hr 45 minutes when the memory is empty. The actual total recording time may differ because I think the actual bitrate depends on how detailed the scene is.

By the way, the owner's manual has this info on p. 147. It is available here:
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER...CHS700-MUL.PDF

Recording mode	1080/60p	HA	HG	HX	HE
Picture size	1920k1080	1920k1080	1920k1080	1920k1080	1920k1080
32 GB Flash	2 h 40 min	4 h 10 min	5 h 30 min	8 h 20 min	13 h 40 min
240 GB HDD	20 h	31 h 40 min	41 h	62 h 30 min	102 h

You're right on both accounts, it's cumbersome, and you're not getting it :-)

I had been asked 3 times whether what you propose works, which it does and which I had answered twice, but I wanted to test it this way to absolutely make the point that you can do the 1080p to 1080i conversion with no files present on the camera, and after the fact, i.e. not in the same session.

I also wanted to copy the SD card completely as an additional copied version, so if I wanted, I can re-create the SD card to use back in the camera. I haven't tried, but I've heard here that you can't write files back to the camera's built in memory, so copying the built-in memory may not be a valid solution, because I don't know if the structure in the built-in memory is the same as when it exists on the card, and thus I don't know if you can copy the built-in memory to a HDD, and then from HDD to the SD card. It probably is the same, but I didn't want to take that risk or bother with yet futher testing which doesn't matter to me.

Roland.

Charles, I'm with you on all points. I think the disparity between the OIS on the Sony and the Panasonic are far less than the overall picture quality. I'll give up a bit of OIS for the superb PQ of the 700.

Welcome to the dark side! I used to live in the Sony world too, many of us did.

You are also seeing some of the myths dispelled about the 700 and the requirements for it computer-wise. Of course these myths have been perpetuated by a few select folks on the other side. This is not to say that 60p doesn't take more computing HP than 1080i, but to read some of the comments on the other threads, you'd think you'd need a room full of NASA style computers to make any post-production editing work.

Even now, every time I see the videos from this thing I can't believe the price is what it is.

Yeah, I thank Mark for putting a merciful end to that thread! I got suckered in to responding to all of the nonsense that a couple of members were posting. I apologize for whatever role I played in increasing the 'noise' on AVS during that period, but it's just hard to let posts like that go unanswered.

Congrats Lux! So who did you wind up ordering it from?

Yeah, I was worried I was going to have to shell $1000+ for an i7 core computer. Glad I did not have to do that. Today I have taken more than an hour of 1080p/60p video and it is just amazing. Have been playing with the settings and macro recording, it is all great. The fan is not an issue at all. I don't hear it on my recordings.

I got this camera for only $600 (Amazon) by trading in some video games and books. Got the price down from $800 to $600. I can't believe how amazing and cheap (even at $800) this camera is.

Can't wait until the next day I get to film.

I have to chime in here. I now have first hand experience on a TM700 and HF M31 (Canon's mid line HD camcorder). Right off the bat, 60p video on the TM700 is better than the Canon's highest HD record setting. But the OIS and onboard mic (wind noise canceler) is better on the Canon hands down. Both heat up fast but the TM700 heats up much more than the HF M31. In fact, during Time Lapse Record of about 2 hours, the bottom of the camera heated up so much that it made the quick release from the tripod that goes into the camcorder body extremely hot; not hot enough to burn but hot enough so I could not touch it for more than a quick second. I can only imagine how hot the TM700 is on the inside.

Last but not least, the fan noise is there. It's an issue even when not in a super quite environment.

Yes, I think this is where Panasonic loses out to similar camcorders from Sony and Canon. Panny's OIS is definitely not as good. I have used a new Canon mid line and OIS is much better for long zoom shots.

I think the fan noise is definitely there. At least based on all the owners that I have spoken with in the public forum and private messages. Also, it depends on who you speak with and more importantly, their ability to hear this noise. Based on all the raw clips that I have been able to download, at least the ones with medium to low surrounding noise levels, ALL had fan noise in them (including the ones that the owners say there is no fan noise). It is less audible when you playback the footage through a TV or home theater system but it's there if you know what to look for (and I also used Adobe Soundbooth to "see" the noise spectrum at which the fan buzzes at (800Hz to 1000Khz). Remove that range and the fan noise and the videos sound fantastic. I am still shocked at how Panasonic can release this product with such a fan noise issue and then publicly saying, at least where I live, that they will not replace a product due to fan noise.

Having said that, if you do not know what fan noise is or if you have a camera that normally produces loud white noise anyway, you probably won't notice or care about the fan noise.

Others have suggested using an external mic. I have not tested this yet but if you shoot fun / family stuff, it is kind of neat to have 5 channel surround sound from the on-board mic. External mic on this camera = stereo only. Plus, for spontaneous fun shots, who wants to lug around / plug in an external mic?

True we're not talking workstation class (dual socket) computing needs, but it really does seem that Core-i7 is needed, would you not agree? I have read through 2/3 of the 2500 posts in the other thread trying to look for tips on how to smoothly playback 1080p60, what formats to convert it into, or how to smoothly edit in Premiere Pro. And although I've tried coversion to MP4 and H.264 and plenty of other options, I still can't get smooth playback of high motion 1080p60 in anything other than HD Writer AE, and that's a poor editing option.

I would love to be corrected on this, or even more so, would love to know how to get my Core 2 Quad at 3.6GHz to edit and playback smoothy in Windows Media Center and Premiere, but at this point all indication I've seen points to the need of a Core i7.

Roland.

I'm not familiar with that Canon model, but I can't say my past Canons have had better OIS. The closed cam I have to the 700 in terms of OIS was my Sony XR500. They were very close.

It sounds like your fan might be noisier than most. You can see the majority of owners are not complaining about it, but we know there are varying degrees of noise these units are producing. Have you explored a replacement from your retailer?

Bowmah, in all fairness, Charles had taken some tips from us and has gained more experience with his unit. This was his last post on the subject:

"There have been several side by side comparisons regarding the Panasonic against the Sony 550 OIS.
Having taken up the various tips regarding holding the camcorder on this and similar forums I can honestly say that in all normal filming situations that the OIS on the Panasonic is all that one could wish for.If you want to film when walking when there is no possibilty of keeping the camcorder in the correct position then perhaps the Sony may be the better option,but I for one would only want to video in those circumstances if there was no alternative."

Roland, based on my initial experience I would have been with you 100%. Keep in mind my 2 computers are a dual core 2.4gig (Sony All-In-One computer) and an I7. My initial results were very stuttery on my dual core and buttery smooth on my HP I7.

But then I began reading how people were getting great playback on quad cores and even some dual cores. Then someone mentioned "Splash Lite" and it helped my dual core 100%. I still don't get buttery playback, but it's really not bad at all.

So I think there's more going on than just processing power, but I can't say I know what that is. We're also getting to the stage where I7 prices have come down quite a bit and I think if someone is replacing their computer anyway, they'd be wise going with an I7. Of course I can tell you first-hand that the I7 will not just benefit you for 60p playback, but will also be a tremendous advantage in reducing file conversion time. The thing is lightning fast.

I am comparing apples to apples, ie. the way I hold the camcorders at the max zoom. 12x / 18x and 15x. With the mid level Canon, I can max zoom, take a deep breathe and hold, turn on active OIS or whatever Canon calls the max setting, the the image is pretty darn still. With the Panny, no matter how I hold the camcorder and with max OIS on, the recorded image is still a bit "wobbly". To me, and again, at the telezoom end, Canon OIS wins here.

Hey Roland, I can feel your frustration on this. I have a feeling it may be a codec that is preventing you from playing 60p files smoothly. Have you tried installing K-Lite Pack?

Also, on my Quad 6600, I do have FSB up to 1333MHz and 800-MHz DDR2 SDRAM. Those are the last 2 things that I can think of that may be letting me play the 60p files smoothly on a 1920x1200 screen. (In addition the 64-bit Windows 7 Pro).

Hi guys, have you figured out if the hs700 has some kind of system that do not stop the recording session when the camera get shook too much ?

My hs350, stop the recording session when the G icon appears too many times on the LCD.

What about the hs700 ?

Thank you

Does anyone here know if iMovie supports the 700 at 1080p60 yet? I heard there were issues with importing video into iMovie/Final Cut but wasnt sure if it had been adressed yet thru an update or something.
(27" I7 iMac)

Granted that I am not doing a lot of editing, my 3 year old Intel MacBook can play the video with no problem under the WinXP boot. I can also do some basic editing, although it can take some time. I can also convert video to AVCHD with ease and then use iMovie on the OSX boot. I use my PS3 to play the videos on my Sony Bravia TV.

You cannot copy from a computer backup directly back to the built-in camcorder memory. I found this out AFTER I had made a backup of the memory to my computer using the archive function of iMovie, or make a disk image. My resulting folder was 28GB, and I did not have a 32GB SDHC card. So I researched another method since I had 16GB and 8GB cards.

A workaround, limited only be the size of your SDHC memory card: you can move video files between the internal memory and an SDHC memory card - both directions. So, move video clips from the internal memory to a card;archive the entire memory using iMovie on the Mac, or file manager on Windows to make your backups. If you want to move from the backup back into the camcorder, you can copy the files from the backup to an SDHC memory card, remove card from PC, insert into camcorder, then use the camcorder function to move the video clips back into the internal memory. You can move some or all your clips using this method, and the TM700 will create the right file structure.

Just be sure to backup the entire contents. The complete file/folder structure.

Roland, you are completely correct. It appears the TM700 is really two separate cameras that don't know about each other! It is either a 1080p60 camera, or an 1080i camera. Files of the "other" format are not visible or delete-able in playback mode, and you can only switch formats when in record mode. (It had nothing to do with whether I had downloaded the file, as I first assumed.) I wish I had realized that earlier!

"non-intuitive" seems the least one might say... can we have a show of hands... who would have expected the camera to behave this way?

Believe it or not, that about the same way the HVX200A works. You can see the thumbnails but you have to switch to the exact recording mode in order to play the files. I wish it wasn't that way.

Well, I'm planning a whole complicated order.. I've got few friends that have family in USA, and I'm planning to make an order (and payment) in their name on Panasonic website using that corporate perks code.. Than when it's shipped to their US address, they will either bring it or send it to me in Europe.. I've got 2 people that can send it to me, but that means probably 30%+ in taxes and customs duties, which is a lot, so I'm still looking for someone that will be coming personally, so that they can bring it in as personal luggage.. A whole lot of complication.. But I can't afford almost exact double price that is being offered in Croatia


Like I've said several times in the other thread, I could play and convert raw TM700 files (that I got from Vimeo and similar places) on Intel Core 2 Duo E4400 CPU, which is easily trumped by new 50-60$ CPUs.

Actually, I've built a new low-end computer for a relative of mine, with current specs:
AMD Athlon II X2 240 2.8GHz - around 55$ at newegg
DDR2 800 - 2x 1GB
Gigabyte GA-MA785GM-US2H motherboard - around 80$ at newegg

As can be clearly seen, very low end. Dual core CPU, only 2GB of RAM, and microATX motherboard with integrated graphics. Windows XP SP3 were on it, and it played 60p video using ATI AVIVO decoder (integrated graphics) with ~15% CPU, smooth as it gets.. Actually, it was much smoother playback than anything I could get on my own computer that has HD4890 graphics, at least at that time.

Now, if that computer played back 60p video just fine, than any computer can do it. If you've got problems it's probably due to operating system, drivers, or something similar.

On the other hand, like I've said, my computer had problems with playback. I got it to play silky-smooth using PowerDVD trial, but I was hoping for a free solution. Than I've heard about that Splash Lite player, and it plays back 60p just fine even on my computer. Unfortunately, there are obviously issues with my ATI card and/or drivers, so I have to use CPU-only to do playback, which means ~80-90% CPU being used when doing playback.. But it plays, and is smooth. I've also found out (with all players) that hitting play, than pause, and than play from start produces stutter-less video, while just playing it can cause few stutters at start. Must be a problem of buffering, or slow disc system or something like that.

Anyway, point of all this is - hardware is not a problem. Low end hardware can do the job. Software on the other hand can be a problem for some people.

As for editing, I did editing in everything from PowerDirector and Premiere CS5, to free Windows Live Movie Maker and PowerPoint 2010. It works just fine, though I have to mention that this is on Windows 7 which supports MTS files natively, so maybe that helps a bit.


I'll correct you. Just read what I wrote above. If a 2.8GHz Athlon X2 (dual core, low end, no cache) can do it, than your quad can do it as well. Try Splash Lite for a start, or if you want a more advanced player, try with PowerDVD. First is free, second can be downloaded as trial, so no problems there.
As for editing, unless you've already bought Premiere, I'd tell you to try PowerDirector or Edius before buying Premiere. I've tried PowerDirector and it worked great, and it's simple to use, yet powerful enough (for me at least). Many people suggest Edius Neo 2, Ken included, and it seems as most effective editor for higher-end segment. Premiere CS5 works, but it's not as fast as I'd expect from such a powerful (and expensive) product.


You've just said it yourself:
- depends on your hearing abilities
- and the environment to be low-noise
- and you have to concentrate to hear it
- and you still have to "know what to look for"

I did hear noise on several samples, but I just had to listen to it, and look for it. There is one video in particular, where I could hear a person breathing, yet I never noticed the fan noise until I specifically knew what to look for, and until I was listening just to hear that noise. And that's on speakers put on way too loud for comfortable listening of normal video, as just 10 seconds later in the video wind blows over the mic, and it's huge noise compared to anything else in the video. And certainly when watching that video with family, I'd never put speakers that loud or everyone would start yelling at me after wind would start blowing.
Except that video, there was only one other where I could hear it, and again, I was hearing leaves and small branches cracking under the feet of a person recording the video, so I'd say I've put speakers to quite loud setting, just to hear the fan.

IMHO - at those settings, I don't find fan disturbing at all. If I put speakers to normal loudness, where human speach is heard clearly, I doubt I'd hear fan even in the quietest environments.