The Official Panasonic HDC-HS/SD/TM700 Owners thread - Page 10

I feel your pain rpwooste. Here are a few things to note, hope it may help.

1. When you use CS5, are there yellow or red lines in the timeline? Normally, when in yellow, playback is quite smooth most of the time; especially on newer machines.

2. In CS5, do you drag the 60p files into the new sequence icon so that CS5 will load these in the timeline in 59.95 fps? Doing this, I see all clips in yellow so no need to render before playback.

3. Having said that, do you absolutely need editing playback to be 100% smooth? Have you tried 1/2 or 1/4 resolution in either the preview window and output window? Try 1/2 output if you have not already.

4. Here is one way to make sure it's not an OS / software issue. If you have an extra physical hard drive / partition, format it and install only Windows 7 64-bit. Then install only CS5 on these. CS5 64-bit in Windows 64 bit runs pretty smoothly. Probably smoother than any other previous versions in any OS. This way, you remove any other software issues, antivirus, antispyware and anything that may be hindering the playback process. The biggest thing I found was to import all media files to a local harddrive instead of a network (even if it's gigabit). By running just CS5 in this partition, it gives the best chance for success at editing without crashing. You can easily dual boot in Windows 7 so no worries there. Kind of a pain but I am sure you are dieing to find out why your new machine is not playing things smoothly. I am using a lower end than the previous user Quad 6600 = 2.4 GHz I think with 4 Gigs of RAM and editing and exporting works well. Video card is only 128 MB but it is a true HD card meant for home theater.

Hope these may help.

Yup I get the green, yellow, red lines in CS5. I have 8GB RAM, and my and applications drive is a separate drive, my data drive is a 4 disk RAID-10 with over 200MB/s read/write performance, and with 8GB ram, there's no swap drive issues. I'm running the previews and resolution at 1/2. My video card is a GTX275 with 896MB, so I really shouldn't be seeing hardware problems, and it's a clean build of Win7-64.

When I first put the clips in, they are yellow, I can edit them at 1/2 resolution reasonably smoothly, after having done the Cineform Neoscene conversion on them, this has improved matters considerably.

My struggle now is figuring out what output format to use in CS5, as CineForm seems to be missing as an output option. I tried WMV, but it ran out of memory on creating the file on my first attempt (with 8GB RAM, I've turned off the swap file).

Roland.

So you convert to AVI before editing? Yikes! In CS5, try h.264 (MP4) and pick 1080 29.97p. Then scroll down in the details and choose 59.97 fps. These yielded very high quality files at about twice the size of the original raw files. Windows Media Player and Media Center should play MP4 easily.

What should I export as in Premiere CS5 to yield the best quality?

Well, except "smooth preview", Premiere CS5 should handle everything fine. On my own computer (dual core E4400) I didn't even expect smooth preview, as it's quite underpowered computer for 60p editing. If you absolutely need smooth 60p playback in preview, I think your only option might be Edius, but I'm not familiar with other stuff you need and if Edius supports it. For sound editing, you can always use external app to edit sound, should be cheaper than buying a new computer


Open Splash Lite, press CTRL+S for settings dialog, switch to Video section, un-check (turn off) hardware video acceleration.
Unfortunately, on my HD4890 card, when using ATI Avivo all 60p videos stutter. If I go to software decoding, playback is smooth (I just have to pause video at first for a moment, than play it, I think it's some kind of buffering issue with the app and high bandwidth of 60p clips). On my Core 2 Duo, E4400 CPU, clocked to 3.2GHz, CPU is on 80-90% in soft mode.

But I do have to caution EVERYONE in this thread. More expensive hardware DOES NOT MEAN better playback! Like I've said before, I have tried playback on a 50$ CPU with integrated ATI graphics (785G chipset, Radeon HD 4200 integrated graphics), and ATI Avivo worked perfectly on it. So my HD4890 couldn't playback 60p smoothly, but an integrated HD4200 graphics chip could! I'm just sorry that this wasn't mine computer, so I can't try Premiere and other tools on it anymore, as I had to send it back :/ I'm not sure if it was OS, drivers, some other hardware component, or whatever, but my own computer is much better than that low-end PC I've built (except maybe CPU, mine is slower on stock clocks, but since it's overclocked I think it beats it as well). Yet still - that cheap PC played everything smoothly, and mine couldn't. It had 2 GB RAM, I have 4GB, it had 32bit XP, I've got 65bit Win 7 Enterprise, it had much slower disc, I've got several faster discs, and no matter where files lie - it's wasn't as smooth.

Splash Lite saved me, although 90% CPU ain't that great, but at least there are no stutters once it starts playing.


H.264, 60p, 1920x1080, 5.1 sound, and high bitrate (as original video which is ~25-28Mbps average, with peaks up to 35Mbps, depending on scene)

You want great smooth playback at 1080p/60p? Get a PS3.

Actually playback is not always completely smooth on my PS3, and I don't have any of the video options on that take extra CPU. It appears smooth if you don't watch carefully, but it does sometimes skip frames on some 1080p60 video. Others have reported the same thing- one person said it was smooth before, but with the latest firmware update (which is what I have- the one that removed the "Other OS" option) it got less smooth. Still watchable, but not "perfect".

I have a Slim PS3 updated to the latest firmware and I have no issues playing any of my videos. Initially I had issues and realized that I had to turn all the picture enhancements off (Mosquito, Block and frame). Maybe there is a skip frame here and there but I don't see many of them. Better play my videos on my 42" Sony HDTV on a $299.99 machine than spending $1200.00+ on a bulky i7 next to my TV.

I've done loads of tests trying to figure out what external mic to get (separate thread on external mics), but in doing so, I've found a way to empirically measure the Signal to Noise (SN) ratio of the audio circuits within the camera, and I'm quite proud of myself :-) so I wanted to share.

By testing the sound levels of the built in mic, compared to an external mic (actually a cheap desktop PC mic for Skype), and a simple unconnected cable with a 3.5mm plug on it. Using these three options I was able to determine the noise levels of the camera's audio circuits, because even when you plug in a 3.5mm plug into the camera, with nothing attached to the plug, it must mechanically (rather than electrically) detect that an external mic exists. This is great news for testing purposes.

So, with Windscreen off, AGC off, SET level (see below), and Stereo mode, I used three combinations Built in Mic (BIM), Desktop Mic (DTM), and Cable (CAB) here's the sound pressure levels as displayed in Soundbooth:

SET Level BIM DTM CAB
0 -4db >+6db* -53db *DTM was distorting
-15 -15db -6db -63db
-30 -26db -20db -78db

Please note, in the context of the sound pressure levels above, there is some slight variability as the source sound was me talking, so I would imagine they are accurate to +/- 2db. The numbers for the cable are accurate as there's no sound source involved.

The first thing I notice is that by reducing the Audio Set Level from 0 to -15, and from -15 to -30, does not attenuate the audio by 15 db, but closer to 11db each time. As is clearly shown by the 11db drop in audio levels recorded by the BIM each time. Also the 23db drop in cable noise versus the -30db setting is consistent.

Irrespective of that anomaly, it very clearly shows that the Signal to Noise ratio of the BIM is at best ~50db (and that's assuming no additional noise contributed by the built in mic itself, which given the fan noise, we know is not true) thus concluding that the BIM has a SN substantially worse than 50db.

Alternatively, using an external mic, WITH HIGH SENSITIVITY, it would appear that you could set the audio level well below the 0 point, thus gaining SN ratio out of the built in audio circuits from -53db to a maximum of -78 db if you drop as far as -30db in the SET Audio level. Using a super sensitive mic you could then bring back the desirable audio as close as possible to the 0db level, and in theory achieve a SN level as high as 78db. Given my cheapo desktop mic, it appears a SN level of at least 60db is possible by shouting as loud as I can at it and using the -30db recording level. More normal talking levels yield only a 40db SN which is clearly indicative of it being a $10 mic.

I think my next step is to pay more attention to the sensitivity level of some external mics, along with getting one that is highly directional, and I might just yet be able to get audio out of this camera that matches the picture quality!

Roland.

Hi, I would like to get live video out of the HDC-TM700K HDMI port, with a mini to standard HDMI cable, at 1080i. Anyone know if the port supports live video out?
Thanking in advance for feedback.

Saw this older post and thought I'd share something that works for me. I have 2 of these players and a brand new Panasonic TM-700. The Briteview players will play the 1080p60 content perfectly! . . . and they are $87 each

Hmm... I had no troubles playing on computer built from:
AMD Athlon II X2 240 2.8GHz - 57$
DDR2 SDRAM,1x1024MB,800MHz(PC2-6400) x2 - 2x 22$
HITACHI 500GB 7200rpm,16MB cache - 54$
GIGABYTE GA-MA785GM-US2H (AMD 785G chipset) - 80$
Any case with PSU - ~20$
--
Total: 255$

For OS, maybe it would even work with some Linux distro, but for 100$ you get Win 7 Home Premium, that's 50$ more in total than PS3. I'd sure appreciate PC over PS3 anytime.. bulky or not. You've got 500GB drive to store whatever you want on it for playback, easily upgradeable with larger drive or multiple drives for a handy HTPC, will support more formats than any "standalone" player (including PS3), and long term I always think it's a better investment as you've got way more flexibility with PC. Oh, and that played 60p with MPC HC at ~15% CPU load, and I'm sure Splash Lite would do even better. You save a lot on burning BluRay discs, as all you need is to transfer files through network, and you can fit 30+ hours of raw 60p video on 500GB drive. And if you invest just 26$ more you can get a 1.5TB drive instead of 500GB, that's ~100 hours of raw 60p video, you'll need a year to fill that.. And than next year all you need is another ~50$ investment in another hard drive.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.. It's not a solution for everybody..

This thingie? (link) If it plays 1080/60p raw files without stuttering, than this is by far the cheapest standalone player for the task..

EDIT: How do you playback files on those players? Through LAN connection from your PC, or from USB drive? Because they mention that 33Mbps H.264 video produces "serious lag" over LAN, while it's ok for playback up to 40Mbps (I'm assuming from external USB drive). I know TM700 isn't 33Mbps, so maybe those ~5Mbps less allows for smooth playback, but just wanted to check. And it seems no shipping outside US, but that's less of a problem, there are other such players, they just need testing

Wow Roland, that is some great deducing work and testing. Well done. So you are well on your way to getting even better sound out of your TM700. Do share when you have a final setup that you are happy with!

Since you are such a detailed oriented producer, can I ask for you to test something on your end? I am seeing quite a bit of "jittering" if I can call it that when slow unzoom is happening. I have been doing extensive shooting and have discovered that in my raw footages, when I go tom 12x to 1x in a slow zoom handheld with normal OIS, I am getting quite a bit of jittering. It is not noticeable in the native resolution but at 1900x1200 and even on a large HDTV, it is apparent (and bugs the heck out of me). I find that it happens more on normal OIS and less on power OIS. Jittering rarely happens on brightly lit objects on a sunny day. It occurs much more often in mid light conditions, say cloudy when shooting building or mountains in iA mode. In fact, I am surprised no one else have mentioned this yet. When panning and no unzooming is involved, picture quality is great. This jittering of certain objects only appear when I am unzooming in the slowest mode. Can I ask you or anyone else to test the unzooming on your TM700. Originally, I was in talks with jbeale and I thought this would only happen in digital mode but after more testing, looks like it's happening in the optical range as well. For some reason, I don't believe I have seen it in this extent on a new Canon (mid level) or even on an older 3CCC Panny (miniDV). Can you shed some light and do a comparison?

Hi, LuxZg!

I have tried this option (Hardware Video Acceleration) in Windows XP SP3 32-bit and in Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise on the same PC: core 2 duo 2,13 GHz, 4 GB RAM, NVidia 8600GT 521Mb, 2 separate HDDs 7000 rpm.

It's interesting, that:

1. In Windows XP 32-bit : video stutters without checked option, and plays smoothly when Hardware video acceleration option is ON.
2. In Windows 7 64-bit I have : video stutters when option is ON and when option is OFF. But with option "ON" the interruptions much longer. I have noticed that in Windows 7 64-bit the Windows media player plays more smoothly then Splash.

What do you think?

Hi, Purcellt!

Good info. Have you compared quality of 1080p video that played from
TM700 directly connected to TV and the same video that played from Brite-View?
Have you noticed a difference?

I have 2 of these players on my 10/100 network. I've got a 10TB WHS server that holds the digital files. Both players are harwired in the network. Not sure why they play so well (buffering perhaps?) but they do. These players will list the current network speed BEFORE the file plays and it has been anywhere between 30Mbps to 45Mbps as a connection speed. But result is always the same - they just play! Happy to answer any other questions or even shoot a short video of the interface as the file is played if that helps!

I have not - great idea that I will try this week

I am not saying that I don't have a computer that I use for video editing. I just have a PS3 hooked to my tv which serves as my hub for entertainment, including 1080p/60p. I do have.a 2tb hdd hooked to the ps3.

Very interesting measurements, thanks for posting! Makes me want to do some measurements of my own. For now can I just point out, most mic preamps want to see some kind of resistive termination to a cable to get the minimum noise. If you just present them with an open circuit (cable with nothing on the other end) you often get more noise than if it had, say 200 ohms across it. So the camera may actually be able to do better than the -78 dB your data shows so far.

...and that value is already decent for a consumer camcorder. My old Sony VX2000 only had 64 dB dynamic range on the line input: http://www.bealecorner.org/best/meas...X2k-TRV720.htm

1080i I'm guessing, not 1080p. Either that, or you've figured out the codec problem for 1080p playback. What software are you using for playback.

Hey jbeale, I think I started a conversation with you somewhere in the admin area. Not sure why it's different from message so not sure if that message even got through. Thought I would pick your brain on this one? I posted this previously but thought to address to you specifically since you also see the jittering and sound like a knowledgable user. Would you mind?

Bear in mind the impressive -78db noise level is only when setting the record level to -30db, so not indicative of typical output or dynamic range. Unless we can find a microphone that even at the -30 level can peak at the 0db when recording, then it's not going to be that good.

I'm going to try the Sennheiser MKE-400 and see how that goes.

Roland.

My videos play fine with the HD writter software but when using Premiere/after exporting the quality isn't as good. Would more ram fix this? (currently have 2GB)

The videos are not 1080/60p

Edit: Solved it

Right, if the "0 dB" setting is a typical mic level, then -30 dB from that is moving towards line level input (I guess "consumer audio" line level is usually about 40 dB away from mic level). So that would mean using a mic with an external preamp. I hope to get a chance to make some tests of my own sometime soon.

PS Bowmah: I will try to have a look for pixel jitter when I get some free time.

I think that video drivers for windows 7 are probably not as good as for XP for your card. Same problem is probably with my PC as well. That's why your video stutters with hardware acceleration in Win 7.
And you stutter in software mode o win7 because CPU alone can't process everything fast enough, it's just 2.13GHz CPU after all. I've got mine overclocked to 3.2GHz and it's still nearing 90% load when playing back some clips.
Have you tried starting playback, than pausing after a second or two, and waiting a few seconds, than starting playback again? That helped me with earlier players a bit to lessen the stuttering.


This sounds perfect! I just wanted to check I'm sure others (specially those from US) will be glad to have this info.


No, what you said was implicating that nothing except "bulky & expensive i7" can do 60p playback, which isn't true. I'm not against PS3, specially if you already own one. But buying one just for 60p playback isn't solution either. There are alternatives, including cheap PC setup that costs less or same as your PS3 + 2TB external drive.


No, these were 60p clips. And as written, I was playing it back with Media Player Classic - Home Cinema, with hardware acceleration turned on. Most decoding is done with integrated graphics chip from motherboard, so CPU didn't matter much as was loaded at just around 15%. OS was Windows XP SP3, 32bit. As much as I remember I've had K-Lite codec pack installed as well, but I believe that MPC HC uses it's own codecs for playback anyway. ATI drivers were installed of course, complete Catalyst with Avivo and everything.

I have to say that I was as puzzled as you are, but it worked just fine. There was a slight stutter on start of some clips, but if I played/paused and than played clip, I could have it playing and looping without stuttering. That was full screen on 1920x1080 LCD as well. I don't own big screen TV, so these were all tested on 22" & 23" FullHD monitors, but stuttering should be obvious even at that screen size.

Greetings LuxZg.

I'm facing the same problem getting smooth playback using DXVA with 5670 running W7. Below is a screen shot of MPC.

Can you kindly post a MPC screen shot and indicate the video decoder in use?

Many thanks and best regards.

As I've said, this was on a computer that isn't any longer in my possession, I was just building it and preparing it for a relative of mine. And on my own computer, I had problems with DXVA playback in MPC HC so I've uninstalled it.

But I do remember that I've browsed around the web, and used few advices from pages like these:
http://mpc-hc.sourceforge.net/DXVASupport.html
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.ph...1&limitstart=3

I'm not 100% sure these are exact same links, but those are the instructions that most websites replicate. I remember I've just set the basics on that other computer, and it worked right away, without any problems.

Hi!

I'm in the market for a camcorder, and the XX700 seems like a good piece of equipment.

A few questions!

When recording in cinema mode (24/25p), how big a difference is there to the 60p-mode? Does it get more cinematic in the feel?
Do the files become easier to manage when shot in 24/25p?

I've heard that the files are a bit difficult to edit, that not many programs manage the Panasonic format. How true is this today? Which software/programs are recommended?

Last question.. Will my computer die?
Dual core 2,6 ghz, 2 gig ram (will have to upgrade ram I guess), Geforce 8800GT.

Thanks for any feedback!

Hello All,

New owner of the TM700 and to this forum, thanks :-)

Question: I need to be able to view the TIME STAMP while watching the video on my TV. (I need to review race results on a cycling event and need to see what time the racers pass by the camera)

I've read the manual, done searches and I cannot find where to get it to show.

I've got what I think are all the time and display features turned "on" but to no avail...

Any help would be appreciated.