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The best pair of subs you would you buy (under $10K)? - Page 2

post #31 of 376
5/10/10 at 9:40pm
I would try to find a pair of BDEAP-32's.
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post #32 of 376
5/11/10 at 12:40am
I know this thread is for a pair of subs, but i wonder how a single Danley TH221 would perform in comparison to the options presented. Of course, technically you're outside the 10k budget since you'd have to find an amp capable of 3000w continuous and thats gonna add prob another 500-1000 to the ~$10k cost for the sub.

Supposedly this one sub will outperform 4x TH50's, it would probably be COMPLETE overkill for any Home Theater.
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post #33 of 376
5/11/10 at 5:01am
I've heard a pair of the TH 812's from Danley. Hahahaha, I think there is a point that you don't need to cross in the home, regardless of budget! LOL
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post #34 of 376
5/11/10 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

For the price, you can do better.......in both SPL and SQ.

I think that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I can't discuss what the Terraform XLs are capable of until Mark says I can talk about them publicly...but I can count on 1 hand the number of subs out there that can come close to them.
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post #35 of 376
5/11/10 at 6:30am
That's an easy choice--2 x Terraform XL's. Huge output at ultra-low frequencies, ultra-low distortion because of the PR/bandpass design, and a design by one of the pickiest anal SOB's around. They will do what he says, I have no doubt about that.
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post #36 of 376
5/11/10 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I would try to find a pair of BDEAP-32's.

I have another pair sitting here that could match the pair he has, but Jeff's too afraid to pull apart his screen wall.

But where's the fun and challenge in that.

Guys should also remember that above ~30-35Hz, Jeff already has more clean headroom than any of the options being discussed, and his plan is to add to those, not replace them!
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post #37 of 376
5/11/10 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

I think that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I can't discuss what the Terraform XLs are capable of until Mark says I can talk about them publicly...but I can count on 1 hand the number of subs out there that can come close to them.

GIve me the PRICE of the XL, the enclosure's specs(volume etc)and the drivers T/S parameters and Ill gladly get back to you. As it is now, the Submersive is what $3k? Using opposed 15" drivers like the Epik Empire. It cost over 3 times the money, but from talking with others the specs between the 2 are very similiar. Id like to know the Submersives volume size and T/S parameters to compare to the Epik Empire(and NO im not big on Epik's latest offering/products) to see what $2200 more really gets you........its not going to be much. 2 15" drivers, a plate amp and a "pro style" mdf enclosure for $3k is not what I call a great deal. You could literally buy yourself a decent woodworking shop and have enough money left over to make yourself 2 of those units DIY.........and to be clear, Im not bashing Seaton's product either, I just feel its really overpriced for what you get from a small 1-2 man operation. I'd expect large mfg's to charge that, but not a small ID/side business company.
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post #38 of 376
5/11/10 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

2 Choices.

A. A pair of Revel B15a's

OR:

B. A pair of Rythmik servo D15SE's

Both audiophile 15" subs that use a TRUE class A/B amplifier. None of that crap economy Class D garbage they put in 99.99% of all subs on the market today.........

if 99.9% of subs don't use class AB amps, maybe there's a good reason for that. You can't tell the difference in a sub...heck even some of the top full range Class D amps sound better than many Class AB designs. Technology has come a long way. But even when Class D THD was "only" 0.25%, that's not an issue when the woofer is the dominant source of THD at typically 2-10%+.

Class D is ~90% efficient, Class AB is ~40-50% efficient. A Class D amp with a cost equal to a Class AB will supply a lot more power.
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post #39 of 376
5/11/10 at 10:39am
Hard to argue with MK's recommendations above. Craig also presented an interesting option. I have two of the Orbit Shifters coming in early June.

Obviously, there are several nice options well within the $10K budget.
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post #40 of 376
5/11/10 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

GIve me the PRICE of the XL, the enclosure's specs(volume etc)and the drivers T/S parameters and Ill gladly get back to you. As it is now, the Submersive is what $3k? Using opposed 15" drivers like the Epik Empire. It cost over 3 times the money, but from talking with others the specs between the 2 are very similiar. Id like to know the Submersives volume size and T/S parameters to compare to the Epik Empire(and NO im not big on Epik's latest offering/products) to see what $2200 more really gets you........its not going to be much. 2 15" drivers, a plate amp and a "pro style" mdf enclosure for $3k is not what I call a great deal. You could literally buy yourself a decent woodworking shop and have enough money left over to make yourself 2 of those units DIY.........and to be clear, Im not bashing Seaton's product either, I just feel its really overpriced for what you get from a small 1-2 man operation. I'd expect large mfg's to charge that, but not a small ID/side business company.

I think there may be a bit of confusion. The SubMersive is a dual 15in subwoofer with a 1000 watt amp. It is also available in premium finishes. check out this link http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=4292198#1Retail is $1995+shipping for the submersive with the basic finish and a bit more for the premium finishes I just posted.The Terraform XL is a dual 15in driver and dual 18in passive radiator sub. That lists for $3500 and it is a completely different animal.
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post #41 of 376
5/11/10 at 11:17am
Two Terraform XL's, no question!
Mine should arrive very soon (replacing 4x Submersives).
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post #42 of 376
5/11/10 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

2 Choices.

A. A pair of Revel B15a's

I owned a pair of Revel B15a's. Utterly crushed by the Danley DTS-20 and Seaton Submersives. I would recommend otherwise.
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post #43 of 376
5/11/10 at 11:21am
Please start your own 'I can build it better thread' as your posts have nothing to do with the OP's thread. Your math is wrong as well.

Please keep this thread on track.

Thanks
Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

GIve me the PRICE of the XL, the enclosure's specs(volume etc)and the drivers T/S parameters and Ill gladly get back to you. As it is now, the Submersive is what $3k? Using opposed 15" drivers like the Epik Empire. It cost over 3 times the money, but from talking with others the specs between the 2 are very similiar. Id like to know the Submersives volume size and T/S parameters to compare to the Epik Empire(and NO im not big on Epik's latest offering/products) to see what $2200 more really gets you........its not going to be much. 2 15" drivers, a plate amp and a "pro style" mdf enclosure for $3k is not what I call a great deal. You could literally buy yourself a decent woodworking shop and have enough money left over to make yourself 2 of those units DIY.........and to be clear, Im not bashing Seaton's product either, I just feel its really overpriced for what you get from a small 1-2 man operation. I'd expect large mfg's to charge that, but not a small ID/side business company.
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post #44 of 376
5/11/10 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphinx360 View Post

if 99.9% of subs don't use class AB amps, maybe there's a good reason for that. You can't tell the difference in a sub...heck even some of the top full range Class D amps sound better than many Class AB designs. Technology has come a long way. But even when Class D THD was "only" 0.25%, that's not an issue when the woofer is the dominant source of THD at typically 2-10%+.

Class D is ~90% efficient, Class AB is ~40-50% efficient. A Class D amp with a cost equal to a Class AB will supply a lot more power.

Class D amps are a hell of alot cheaper to mfg than a good class A/B amp. That is a BIG reason why many subs come with them. Profit margins period. And your right about many times the woofer(plus the amp)in total putting out 2-10% THD or higher even. Many mfg's now bloat their rated output with the amps/driver in combo at 1-10% THD or higher. Its misleading, but higher output numbers help to sell products. Most people overdrive their subwoofers, and many can't tell(untrained ears)or differentiate(or however thats spelled)when a sub is playing cleanly or when it starts to distort. But there are some like myself who can tell and hear a difference when the sub is overdriven. People like us I find tend to be more critical of the subs capablilities, especially when blending into a high quality tower or monitor speaker.
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post #45 of 376
5/11/10 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C View Post

Please start your own 'I can build it better thread' as your posts have nothing to do with the OP's thread. Your math is wrong as well.

Please keep this thread on track.

Thanks
Mike

I found the error, still $1995 vs. $799 for 2 subs with very similiar specs and abilities.......$1200 is significant.
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post #46 of 376
5/11/10 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

I found the error, still $1995 vs. $799 for 2 subs with very similiar specs and abilities.......$1200 is significant.

The only similarity is that the Empire copies the dual 15 inch design of the Submersive (which, admittedly, isn't a unique design...but it certainly popularized it and perfected it).

Drivers are different.
Amps are different.
Enclosures are different.

In the 1 thread comparing the 2, 2 Empires ($1600) vs. 1 Submersive ($2000), the 2 Empires fell off quickly under 20hz even at 75db and the Submersive remained flat.

No comparison.
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post #47 of 376
5/11/10 at 11:43am
The Terraform XL is a dual 15 inch design with dual 18 inch PRs and a massive slot tuned to 11hz.

A pair of them will do some serious subsonics.
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post #48 of 376
5/11/10 at 11:45am
I would (and did) buy 2 x DTS-10s for ULF, that's definitely my pick. Alternatively Mal-21/LMS Ultra/XXX18, specifically for ULF SPL.
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post #49 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

I owned a pair of Revel B15a's. Utterly crushed by the Danley DTS-20 and Seaton Submersives. I would recommend otherwise.

In terms of what? Low hz output(20-25hz and below)?, Im sure it did. I could build a folded horn loaded sub using a small 10" driver and it could easily be tuned to produce more low end output as well. But its not going to have the same resolve and detail from 30-80hz and up. There is always a tradeoff. I personally would take a few db less at the lowest frequencies it can play for better detail higher up. In musical and even movie soundtracts there isn't much information being played below 15-25hz. I know some people here want to literally shake the foundations of their house, but there is definetly a point of diminishing returns. Even in my small BR HT system, with a pair of 15" compression loaded drivers I get plenty of low frequency extension down to 10-15hz at or near reference levels where the furniture and fixtures are rattling significantly,even to the point where even my PJ's image starts to shake a slight bit on certain passages and it uses an isolation mount.
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post #50 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

The only similarity is that the Empire copies the dual 15 inch design of the Submersive (which, admittedly, isn't a unique design...but it certainly popularized it and perfected it).

Drivers are different.
Amps are different.
Enclosures are different.

In the 1 thread comparing the 2, 2 Empires ($1600) vs. 1 Submersive ($2000), the 2 Empires fell off quickly under 20hz even at 75db and the Submersive remained flat.

No comparison.

Unless the EPik has some type of built in subsonic filter and the Submersive does not, thats not going to really make any difference. The question Id like to know is the volume size of the enclosures(from what I understand they are close on interal volume)and the T/S of the drivers used between em. I'm having a hard time believing that a pair of Empires(read 4 15" drivers)with 1200 watts cannot keep up with a single SUbmersive with 2 drivers and 1000 watts at around 15-20hz tuned correctly.
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post #51 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

In terms of what? Low hz output(20-25hz and below)?, Im sure it did. I could build a folded horn loaded sub using a small 10" driver and it could easily be tuned to produce more low end output as well. But its not going to have the same resolve and detail from 30-80hz and up. There is always a tradeoff. I personally would take a few db less at the lowest frequencies it can play for better detail higher up. In musical and even movie soundtracts there isn't much information being played below 15-25hz. I know some people here want to literally shake the foundations of their house, but there is definetly a point of diminishing returns. Even in my small BR HT system, with a pair of 15" compression loaded drivers I get plenty of low frequency extension down to 10-15hz at or near reference levels where the furniture and fixtures are rattling significantly,even to the point where even my PJ's image starts to shake a slight bit on certain passages and it uses an isolation mount.

I think the moral of the story is that you should open up an ID sub shop!
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post #52 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

The Terraform XL is a dual 15 inch design with dual 18 inch PRs and a massive slot tuned to 11hz.

A pair of them will do some serious subsonics.

Terraform XL? Where do I find info on that sub? Can I buy one now? When I google it, all I see are guys like you talking about how great it is in forums. Is this even a real product? My definition of real is shipping NOW, not built to order in some guys basement, total production run > 5 pcs
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post #53 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

In terms of what? Low hz output(20-25hz and below)?, Im sure it did. I could build a folded horn loaded sub using a small 10" driver and it could easily be tuned to produce more low end output as well. But its not going to have the same resolve and detail from 30-80hz and up. There is always a tradeoff. I personally would take a few db less at the lowest frequencies it can play for better detail higher up. In musical and even movie soundtracts there isn't much information being played below 15-25hz. I know some people here want to literally shake the foundations of their house, but there is definetly a point of diminishing returns. Even in my small BR HT system, with a pair of 15" compression loaded drivers I get plenty of low frequency extension down to 10-15hz at or near reference levels where the furniture and fixtures are rattling significantly,even to the point where even my PJ's image starts to shake a slight bit on certain passages and it uses an isolation mount.

So this helps the OP how? From what I've read he isn't building anything but looking for help to buy something under 10k that will do the job. Arguing about what you "could" build helps him how?
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post #54 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

In terms of what? Low hz output(20-25hz and below)?

Not just output. Sound quality and resolution are my main priorities. Having owned SVS, Revel, Aerial, and JL subs, the level of detail, clarity, and resolution in the Danley DTS-20 were a revelation. The Submersives took all of that and added huge output below 20Hz.

Don't knock them until you've heard them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

I could build a folded horn loaded sub using a small 10" driver and it could easily be tuned to produce more low end output as well.

Talk is cheap.
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post #55 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphinx360 View Post

Terraform XL? Where do I find info on that sub? Can I buy one now? When I google it, all I see are guys like you talking about how great it is in forums. Is this even a real product? My definition of real is shipping NOW, not built to order in some guys basement, total production run > 5 pcs

Here are 6 of them. I think the people who deal with him feel he is an honest guy who builds some of the best subwoofers on the planet for the money. I think these would meet the spec of the OP perfectly if he has the space for them. By the way, try and order an Epik Empire to be shipped out NOW, good luck with that, does that mean it's not real?

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post #56 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:36pm
2 sub25's hands down as of right now unless marks new dual 18inch submersive2 that he is working on or monsters.
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post #57 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlipschHead281 View Post

Here are 6 of them. I think the people who deal with him feel he is an honest guy who builds some of the best subwoofers on the planet for the money. I think these would meet the spec of the OP perfectly if he has the space for them. By the way, try and order an Epik Empire to be shipped out NOW, good luck with that, does that mean it's not real?


WOW. People actually put subs this large in their typical sized home theaters? My beer fridge is smaller

hey I count 4, the two in the back appear to be smaller models

nice basement BTW

joking aside, looks like a very capable sub
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post #58 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:50pm
Some perspective:



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post #59 of 376
5/11/10 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Some perspective:





pish, ntrain could do better.
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post #60 of 376
5/11/10 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote_5 View Post

pish, ntrain could do better.

I heard he used a 4" driver in a folded then tapped horn, and he had reference levels in his bathroom at 11.4 Hz. I heard that it even shook the mechanism in his toilet so bad that it flushed itself.
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