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3D Television - Fad or Here To Stay? - Page 25

post #721 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

What about Circuit City and their DVIX players from about ten years ago?

What about it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

It just about put them out of business.

Did you read the message you replied to? Don't try to defend your criticisms of the technology on such flimsy basis as the fact that sometimes risks don't pay off. That's inane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

So just because the industry has spent lots on developing, manufacturing and advertising 3D, they've been wrong before. Only time will tell.

Of course, but you've been insinuating that they're wrong, or more likely to be wrong, this time; that's what I'm objecting to. I'm not saying that this risk is going to pay off. Not even the mighty Karnak could foresee things like that perfectly. However, what we can be sure of is that CE manufacturers have done the market research necessary to know that there is roughly as good of a chance of acceptance of this new technology as there ever is for a new technology. We know this because actions speak loud.

If you're not saying that they're wrong, or more likely to be wrong, this time, then say clearly, without equivocating, what you are trying to say, so you can be best understood.
post #722 of 2615
"Did you read the message you replied to? Don't try to defend your criticisms of the technology on such flimsy basis as the fact that sometimes risks don't pay off. That's inane."

Bicker,

Do not appreciate your sarcasism.

Did you read your OWN message? I was responding to your exact quote "Do you really believe that manufacturers ramp-up production for a consumer product without having market research in-hand?". The examples I provided were products that were indeed researched and based on that analysis were then produced and marketed in masse only to bomb.

And please read ALL that I write before stating "Of course, but you've been insinuating that they're wrong, or more likely to be wrong, this time; that's what I'm objecting to." - wasn't my last sentence "Only time will tell"?

"then say clearly, without equivocating, what you are trying to say, so you can be best understood."

My past posts have been referring to socio-economic factors that in my opinion are obstacles that could very well work against 3D monitors - NEVER did I infere they were written in stone, just what my projection (which is different from a prediction) happened to be. Again, how often have I stated something like above that only "time would tell"? I'm not so inane to think I have a crystal ball.

One time I made a typo mistake on your name and posted an apology. I was concerned about having hurt your feelings. Can't the same be mutual?
post #723 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Hi Rex,
If the technology is there, no doubt upon the conclusion of either the explosion or implosion of 3D television sales , the industry will then unveil this newer technology that doesn't need any glasses at all. Then will those who invested in earlier-type 3D monitors again discard those ones, after earlier discarding their regular 2D units?

I think it all boils down to where you at right now. For example, i have an existing HDTV and fully invested already on HD components already, do i get in the 3D and upgrade all my stuff? (new 3DTV, new AVR that accepts HDMI 1.4) or I am new to the ballgame about HDTV/3D and upgrading from old tube/CRT TV/older HDTV, do i buy a new HDTV with 3D capability or just regular HDTV?

To me personally, i let all the hype go down and decide to buy when all smoke clears. There is still too much going on, so i will sit down and see how 3D develops. I 'm in the first scenario as i stated above and i think i'm in a good spot, no need to upgrade yet. To those due for upgrade now, i would think they need some weighing out of options if they'd jump on 3D now or not.
post #724 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexb610 View Post

I think it all boils down to where you at right now. For example, i have an existing HDTV and fully invested already on HD components already, do i get in the 3D and upgrade all my stuff? (new 3DTV, new AVR that accepts HDMI 1.4) or I am new to the ballgame about HDTV/3D and upgrading from old tube/CRT TV/older HDTV, do i buy a new HDTV with 3D capability or just regular HDTV?

To me personally, i let all the hype go down and decide to buy when all smoke clears. There is still too much going on, so i will sit down and see how 3D develops. I 'm in the first scenario as i stated above and i think i'm in a good spot, no need to upgrade yet. To those due for upgrade now, i would think they need some weighing out of options if they'd jump on 3D now or not.

Basicly my situation as well. We have two HT systems and one of them includes the Sony KD34XBR960, which is still considered reference quality despite being a crt and not having been manufactured since 2006. I love it and do now want to replace it with a larger set (the Sony is only 34 inches)and one with 3D at the loss of picture quality. And it also cost me $2,500 (with the custom stand) which is not small change.

The other set was purchased in February for our secondary HT system. Finances being what they are, I did not want to spend all that much and settled on a 32 inch LCD from Samsung for $399 (which received good professional and owner reviews for entry-level sets).

Who knows how either of us will feel a few years down the road if 3D does take off and the temptation becomes to hard to resist.
post #725 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

The examples I provided were products that were indeed researched and based on that analysis were then produced and marketed in masse only to bomb.

Are you suggesting that market research generally leads to a product "bombing"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

wasn't my last sentence "Only time will tell"?

Yes, but that could be interpreted to mean it's a even-money thing. Are you suggesting that market research leads to a product "bombing" even only half the time?

The point is that you're raising fear, uncertainty and doubt out-of-proportion to that which is appropriate under the circumstances.
post #726 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

What about Circuit City and their DVIX players from about ten years ago? It just about put them out of business.

In the early eighties RCA came out with it's own video disc system during a time when laser discs had yet to build up any consumer momentum. They spent a huge amount of money advertising it on TV and in newspapers (w/Gene Kelly). The player was less expensive than it's laser counterpart and used a lightweight needle instead. They produced a large library of available titles which were also sold for less than laser discs or pre-recorded VHS (which were still selling for $69.99 each). It bombed.

At the same time, Poloraid came out with instant movie cameras (Danny Kaye doing the TV commericals). This was when camcorders were a heavy investment (both financially and physically). This bombed as well.

Mini-disc never made it, although it was a far superior digital recording system than any CD recorder (I have both).

So just because the industry has spent lots on developing, manufacturing and advertising 3D, they've been wrong before. Only time will tell.

But you see all the things you pointed out were formats made by one company. 3d is supported by many company's,the industry as awhole.except for the glasses everybody seems to be on the same page.

Granted this is the first format with no movies except the bundled movie ,but there coming.I wouldn't write off 3d yet.By the poll it seems to me a lot of people want this format to fail. During the format war some wanted hd dvd or blu-ray to win or both.This is a first to me where it sounds like people want 3d to fail for what ever reason,i don't get it.
post #727 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

Are you suggesting that market research generally leads to a product "bombing"?

Yes, but that could be interpreted to mean it's a even-money thing. Are you suggesting that market research leads to a product "bombing" even only half the time?

The point is that you're raising fear, uncertainty and doubt out-of-proportion to that which is appropriate under the circumstances.

Bicker,

Those questions and statements aren't even worth comment.
post #728 of 2615
[quote=Joseph Dubin;18806456]Basicly my situation as well. We have two HT systems and one of them includes the Sony KD34XBR960, which is still considered reference quality despite being a crt and not having been manufactured since 2006. I love it and do now want to replace it with a larger set (the Sony is only 34 inches)and one with 3D at the loss of picture quality. And it also cost me $2,500 (with the custom stand) which is not small change.

Strongly recommend the Pixel Protector's Screen Washes for your Sony! You won't believe the difference! One of our other Forum Members had an old Sony that was getting long in the tooth, so he purchased a New LG 55LH90 and relegated the Sony to the bedroom. After trying the Pixel Protector Screen Washes, he couldn't believe the change. He thought it looked even better than when he first bought it! `If I could have seen how good this old Sony could be, I wouldn't have bought the New LG!' Then used it on his New LG - same thing - far better PQ! Check it out! Also useful for stuck Pixels. Usually run it at night on my bedroom set, awaking every couple hours to move to the next Washing Screen. (3 Washes - Black and White , Colour , Pure White).
post #729 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Quote:
The point is that you're raising fear, uncertainty and doubt out-of-proportion to that which is appropriate under the circumstances.

Those questions and statements aren't even worth comment.

You don't have to reply to things you agree with. And we don't actually have to agree, either.
post #730 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post


Strongly recommend the Pixel Protector's Screen Washes for your Sony! You won't believe the difference! One of our other Forum Members had an old Sony that was getting long in the tooth, so he purchased a New LG 55LH90 and relegated the Sony to the bedroom. After trying the Pixel Protector Screen Washes, he couldn't believe the change. He thought it looked even better than when he first bought it! `If I could have seen how good this old Sony could be, I wouldn't have bought the New LG!' Then used it on his New LG - same thing - far better PQ! Check it out! Also useful for stuck Pixels. Usually run it at night on my bedroom set, awaking every couple hours to move to the next Washing Screen. (3 Washes - Black and White , Colour , Pure White).

Thanks for the suggestion, however, there is a forum in AVS which has the service code settings from Sony for that model along with spreadsheets of suggested changes made by certain users who are also technically inclined (settings that differ from the factory ones are usually agreed upon by the consensus and indeed are better). Also made some suttle, individual changes on my own for as we know, every set has it's own idiocyrancies unique from the others. Also have HD test patterns stored on our DVR from the old INHD station which was used to make these callibrations along with the standard user adjustments.

Your friend was right. Many of the settings made by technicians in the factory were way, way off (including geometry and overscan). This is the only piece of consumer electronic equipment I own that is called "reference grade" and after completing callibration it was it was like owning a completely new and better set.

Now, when you said Pixal Protector Screen Washer my first thought was finally, a specific liquid cleaner for the screen which has a special non-glare coating on it. Obviously, that's not what you meant.
post #731 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvine2000 View Post

But you see all the things you pointed out were formats made by one company. 3d is supported by many company's,the industry as awhole.except for the glasses everybody seems to be on the same page.

Granted this is the first format with no movies except the bundled movie ,but there coming.I wouldn't write off 3d yet.By the poll it seems to me a lot of people want this format to fail. During the format war some wanted hd dvd or blu-ray to win or both.This is a first to me where it sounds like people want 3d to fail for what ever reason,i don't get it.

IMO, we don't want 3D to fail, we just think that CE manufacturers are pushing it a little too soon. Most consumers have just recently purchase HDTV's (within the last 2 to 3 yrs) and we don't understand why the CE manufacturers aren't working on improving HD and ture 1080p broadcasting, before pushing something that doesn't even had enough media to support it.
Ghpr13
post #732 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Thanks for the suggestion, however, there is a forum in AVS which has the service code settings from Sony for that model along with spreadsheets of suggested changes made by certain users who are also technically inclined (settings that differ from the factory ones are usually agreed upon by the consensus and indeed are better). Also made some suttle, individual changes on my own for as we know, every set has it's own idiocyrancies unique from the others. Also have HD test patterns stored on our DVR from the old INHD station which was used to make these callibrations along with the standard user adjustments.

Your friend was right. Many of the settings made by technicians in the factory were way, way off (including geometry and overscan). This is the only piece of consumer electronic equipment I own that is called "reference grade" and after completing callibration it was it was like owning a completely new and better set.


Now, when you said Pixal Protector Screen Washer my first thought was finally, a specific liquid cleaner for the screen which has a special non-glare coating on it. Obviously, that's not what you meant.

Pixel Protecter has calibration screens, etc. (Never really used them) But we found the random `massaging of the individual pixels' by the 3 Washes gave them a new bolder colour and gave new vigour to your set. PM Konica Tech for his personal findings - he was leary, at first when I mentioned the product, but is now a firm believer! We now use the washes on a regular basis - we've both been poohpoohed about this as being assine, but anyone who actually tried the washes never poohpoohed us again!
post #733 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

Are you suggesting that market research generally leads to a product "bombing"?

I think he saying that even w/ market research, a new product can be a bust.
post #734 of 2615
Any of you guys seen the July/August Crutchfield magazine that just came out? Very cool. The front cover is a Samsung 3D TV with 3D effects on the cover.
post #735 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by 73shark View Post

I think he saying that even w/ market research, a new product can be a bust.

Thank you Shark,

Joe
post #736 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by trinifox View Post

Correct me if I am wrong but you could have always done 3d using polarized of shutter based lens with your DLP & CRT based TVs (and some one said even plasma too). It's just that now LCD / LED have been able to put out frame rates fast enough per eye.

I worked on a project in the late 70s using a piezo-optic lens system that was synched to the raster scan on the CRT TV. Planned to use for remote operators where good depth perception was req'd. Unfortunately the lenses cost $2,500 by themselves.
post #737 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Pixel Protecter has calibration screens, etc. (Never really used them) But we found the random `massaging of the individual pixels' by the 3 Washes gave them a new bolder colour and gave new vigour to your set. PM Konica Tech for his personal findings - he was leary, at first when I mentioned the product, but is now a firm believer! We now use the washes on a regular basis - we've both been poohpoohed about this as being assine, but anyone who actually tried the washes never poohpoohed us again!

Not at all, seems like a great device. Might consider it myself if it's meant for CRTs too.

Like all CRTs, my Sony also has a built-in degauser to protect against magnetic build up on the screen (don't think is a problem for LCD, LED and Plasma - but could be wrong). But it also seems to revitalize the color vibrancy just like the wash when the unit is left unplugged for at least five minutes. I go through that routine once a month and can swear I find a more dynamic picture every time -- either that or it's just wishful thinking on my part.
post #738 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghpr13 View Post

IMO, we don't want 3D to fail, we just think that CE manufacturers are pushing it a little too soon. Most consumers have just recently purchase HDTV's (within the last 2 to 3 yrs) and we don't understand why the CE manufacturers aren't working on improving HD and ture 1080p broadcasting, before pushing something that doesn't even had enough media to support it.
Ghpr13

Thank you also, Ghpr.

You're right, of course, nobody is really rooting against 3D -- it's just as so many are saying, they have already invested in HD monitors over the past few years.

My uneducated guess is that the industry concluded a certain percentage of consumers still in the market to buy sets were also interested enough to spend the extra money to get 3D -- along with enough current owners which would enable them to (at worst) break even with what they invested in research, manufacturing and advertising.

If so, one factor they probably could not anticpate was the worst recession since the 1930s. This suddenly turned everything into a whole new ballgame. How much the economic crisis might affect those they anticipated spending the extra money for 3D and/or new monitors, we don't know. These consumers might or might not look for less expensive alternatives.

Again, only time will tell...., this is only a guess on my part based on current socio-economic conditions which, I'm sure, was surmized by most everybody.
post #739 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by 73shark View Post

I think he saying that even w/ market research, a new product can be a bust.

In context, though, that's not saying very much. Practically anything is possible, anytime. What's the most likely scenario, though?
post #740 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

In context, though, that's not saying very much. Practically anything is possible, anytime. What's the most likely scenario, though?

Family buys a 3D TV set. If they continue to watch 3D and Enjoy it they'll tell or show their friends, co-workers, etc. If the glasses break easily, people feel headaches and nausa when watching, and what ever negative qualities they experience when watching 3D - Negative comments travel 10 times faster than Positive! Their friends, co-workers, etc will now be given a Negative review and 3D sales will lanquish due to the people now becoming hesitant about buying - like us Forum Fence Sitters who are waiting for Really Positive Reviews before investing these kind of monies! If you're already in the market, and there's not that great a difference money wise, your attitude will more than likely - `Why Not' - if we don't like it, we just won't use it!
post #741 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Family buys a 3D TV set. If they continue to watch 3D and Enjoy it they'll tell or show their friends, co-workers, etc. If the glasses break easily, people feel headaches and nausa when watching, and what ever negative qualities they experience when watching 3D - Negative comments travel 10 times faster than Positive! Their friends, co-workers, etc will now be given a Negative review and 3D sales will lanquish due to the people now becoming hesitant about buying - like us Forum Fence Sitters who are waiting for Really Positive Reviews before investing these kind of monies! If you're already in the market, and there's not that great a difference money wise, your attitude will more than likely - `Why Not' - if we don't like it, we just won't use it!

Hi p5,

In context, though, that's not saying very much. Practically anything is possible, anytime........:
post #742 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Thank you also, Ghpr.

You're right, of course, nobody is really rooting against 3D -- it's just as so many are saying, they have already invested in HD monitors over the past few years.

My uneducated guess is that the industry concluded a certain percentage of consumers still in the market to buy sets were also interested enough to spend the extra money to get 3D -- along with enough current owners which would enable them to (at worst) break even with what they invested in research, manufacturing and advertising.

If so, one factor they probably could not anticpate was the worst recession since the 1930s. This suddenly turned everything into a whole new ballgame. How much the economic crisis might affect those they anticipated spending the extra money for 3D and/or new monitors, we don't know. These consumers might or might not look for less expensive alternatives.

Again, only time will tell...., this is only a guess on my part based on current socio-economic conditions which, I'm sure, was surmized by most everybody.

Along with the recession, I think consumers still have a sour taste in their mouths when remembering things like Beta-Max, Quad, HD DVDs. Consumer got burn on those items, and as another poster said, people will tell everyone about a bad or wasted money spent on something far more often then they will tell about something good they bought.

As I said before, IMO, 3D needs to progress in a more evolutionary way. Avatar was the first "ground up" made 3D movie...and a lot of people seemed to really enjoy it (myself included), but then came out Clash of the Titans, and it's 3D was panned by everyone who seen it. Now we're waiting for the verdict on Toy Story 3.
Let 3D earn their bones in the cinemas first, along with gaming on the consumer front. Then as more & more "ground up" 3D media is available, let's see what consumers think then. Remember too, as has been noted in the thread over & over, the very mention of 3D clicks as "gimmick" with a lot of people just because of it's own history.
Let me make it clear, that I don't think of 3D as a gimmick myself, but I do feel it has a number of large hurdles to jump before it will ever be mainstream in consumer's homes.

Ghpr13
post #743 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghpr13 View Post

Along with the recession, I think consumers still have a sour taste in their mouths when remembering things like Beta-Max, Quad, HD DVDs. Consumer got burn on those items, and as another poster said, people will tell everyone about a bad or wasted money spent on something far more often then they will tell about something good they bought.

As I said before, IMO, 3D needs to progress in a more evolutionary way. Avatar was the first "ground up" made 3D movie...and a lot of people seemed to really enjoy it (myself included), but then came out Clash of the Titans, and it's 3D was panned by everyone who seen it. Now we're waiting for the verdict on Toy Story 3.
Let 3D earn their bones in the cinemas first, along with gaming on the consumer front. Then as more & more "ground up" 3D media is available, let's see what consumers think then. Remember too, as has been noted in the thread over & over, the very mention of 3D clicks as "gimmick" with a lot of people just because of it's own history.
Let me make it clear, that I don't think of 3D as a gimmick myself, but I do feel it has a number of large hurdles to jump before it will ever be mainstream in consumer's homes.

Ghpr13

It's my guess that 3D will make it, however, whether it becomes an extra feature used by consumers who purchase higher level equipment or a standard feature of the typical HT set-up, "only time will tell".

Although the focus has been on movies and sporting events, are there plans for 3D video games and equipment? If so, can see serious gamers flocking to 3D.
post #744 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

In context, though, that's not saying very much. Practically anything is possible, anytime. What's the most likely scenario, though?

Why are you still arguing? It could go either way. What he said was accurate and to the point. Marketing research doesn't guarantee success.
post #745 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post

Why are you still arguing? It could go either way. What he said was accurate and to the point. Marketing research doesn't guarantee success.

Thank you as well, Jason.
post #746 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post

Marketing research doesn't guarantee success.

That is probably the only thing said that is for sure.
post #747 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghpr13 View Post

IMO, we don't want 3D to fail, we just think that CE manufacturers are pushing it a little too soon. Most consumers have just recently purchase HDTV's (within the last 2 to 3 yrs) and we don't understand why the CE manufacturers aren't working on improving HD and ture 1080p broadcasting, before pushing something that doesn't even had enough media to support it.
Ghpr13

So what else is new. I'm one who also just bought a new hdtv [2d].I have no plans on getting into 3d right now,but never the less ..3d is here,you take it or leave it.

Btw this poll is ''3dtv fad or here to stay'' By the numbers i see its a fad and ''will fail. I voted here to stay.Wouldnt you feel a little upset if out of the blue they came out and said next year we will start seeing 2060p hdtvs?My point is i think some people here feel a little ripped off because 3d came on ,so fast.
post #748 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707 View Post

That is probably the only thing said that is for sure.

Hi Techman,

You mean more than "In context, though, that's not saying very much. Practically anything is possible, anytime......."?
post #749 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvine2000 View Post

My point is i think some people here feel a little ripped off because 3d came on ,so fast.

Hi tvine,

That depends upon what's behind the industry's marketing strategy. If they are counting mostly on those contemplating getting new sets to sustain 3D for five to ten years until others are ready to replace their current ones, then no problem. But if they were hoping to tempt people into making purchases they otherwise wouldn't, then I would take that as an insult to my intelligence.

I suspect it's a combination of both. Recall the premise behind the 1969 satire on the advertising world, "Putney Swope"? An under-appreciated classic if there ever was one.
post #750 of 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvine2000 View Post

So what else is new. I'm one who also just bought a new hdtv [2d].I have no plans on getting into 3d right now,but never the less ..3d is here,you take it or leave it.

Btw this poll is ''3dtv fad or here to stay'' By the numbers i see its a fad and ''will fail. I voted here to stay.Wouldnt you feel a little upset if out of the blue they came out and said next year we will start seeing 2060p hdtvs?My point is i think some people here feel a little ripped off because 3d came on ,so fast.

I'd be very excited personally.
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