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Looking to upgrade some cables (ICs or Speaker wire) - Page 24

post #691 of 709
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I was going to post (jokingly) to Penn that obviously his system isn't good enough, or he's deaf. The usual audiophile weasel words.

But I see I didn't need to.

Its BOTH

Maybe I shouldn't try to listen after routing 4 18" holes for a new speaker
post #692 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Perhaps hi-fi systems are somewhat (?) unique in being weakest-link systems?

Perhaps you'd be willing to comment on that??


Cheers

Might comment if you explain what you mean. What is the weak part of Penn's system?
post #693 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Perhaps hi-fi systems are somewhat (?) unique in being weakest-link systems?

Perhaps you'd be willing to comment on that??


Cheers

The performance of all systems are limited to that of the least performing part, and I'm not just talking audio here. Audio systems are not mystical beings that live outside of the physics that control the universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Might comment if you explain what you mean. What is the weak part of Penn's system?

I'd be interested to know too.
post #694 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Perhaps hi-fi systems are somewhat (?) unique in being weakest-link systems?

Perhaps you'd be willing to comment on that??


Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Might comment if you explain what you mean. What is the weak part of Penn's system?


Only God knows (if there is a God); clearly Penn does not know; nor do I know.

And that is not a slam on Penn; only that he has at least one weak point in his audio system.


Cheers
post #695 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

The performance of all systems are limited to that of the least performing part, and I'm not just talking audio here. Audio systems are not mystical beings that live outside of the physics that control the universe.


I'm a systems person, and I've very good hearing.

Your above statement looks suspect to me. Especially "all systems"...


Cheers
post #696 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Only God knows (if there is a God); clearly Penn does not know; nor do I know.

And that is not a slam on Penn; only that he has at least one weak point in his audio system.


Cheers

Well I guess it can never be fixed then.

Doubt it's an issue with hearing differences between cables. I've seen those with entry level recievers and speakers claim to hear differences in cables too. After all, everyone has some imagination. Some just have more than others.
post #697 of 709
Did you try putting the cables on blocks, Penn?
post #698 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

I'm a systems person, and I've very good hearing.
Cheers

that is penns weak link, natch.

else he'd be able to hear cables.

natch.
post #699 of 709
Although I do not share your opinion, I wish to thank you for seeing this through, Penn, and giving us your impressions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

like Pink Floyd and Rush.

I just attended a Rush concert last month and will be attending a Roger Waters concert this month.

Quote:


Cables holds nothing in differences compared to even a slight alteration of an XO, a change in a delay of a driver in an active XO. A Change in my overall speaker response slope. IF people think there are differences in cables alone they simply do not understand what REAL changes can do to a setup. They have no real control over their setup either and all they have is subjective belief that maybe cable X will help them out. People searching for change should instead get full control of their setup and then tweak as needed. The differences are real.

Agreed, this is the largest percentage, along with lessening room interaction, of available improvements to sound reproduction. Cables can and do affect the sound, but not to this degree.

Quote:


Thanks Joe for all your help!!

Joe has been freaking awesome through all of this.
post #700 of 709
To the original poster,
Thanks for your time and effort to put your test on these forums.
Second how long are your speaker cables?Would 14 gauge be within usable resistance?Perhaps Swap out the generic 12 gauge for 14 if the length allows it and pit the 14 against the expensive 12 gauge.I bet if the runs were in spec you would have similar sonic but not measurable results.
That's my bet though.

Thanks again!
post #701 of 709
Thread Starter 
Thanks but I believe I failed at this task. Im not a technical writer and I admit to sucking at posting reviews.

I would show the measurements but when they are identical I have a hard time posting them without all the questions surrounding them afterwards. I had a hard time with the conclusion because I wanted to report back something, Joe deserved better (IMO). Obviously these cables do it for others.

After spending time trying to figure it all out with measurements and listening, I ended up feeling that this was work and I try to avoid work daly so I thought I could be building new speakers instead.

Im okay with people thinking it was a failed tested and Im also okay with any "Thank You" for trying.
post #702 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Thanks but I believe I failed at this task. Im not a technical writer and I admit to sucking at posting reviews.

People post their opinion on cables all the time whether it's halfhearted or halfa$$ comparison job. Unless they are all considered failures, I don't think it should be labeled as "failed" especially when you set out to do what you end up posting.
post #703 of 709
At least you were willing to give it a go Penn. Whether or not it wound up being your thing is only human.

I've followed some of your posts in building the head unit of your new loudspeaker cabinet. Honestly I could not fathom doing all of that work, I'd rather go out and buy a pair of 802's, no doubt about it (in fact I've been eying a pair with the new diamond tweeters ever since I heard them-. To me, doing that part of it is not worth my time, and I'm sure you look at listening to cables or any ancillaries the same way. But to take a design and make it better, I'm all about that. We each have different priorities with similar end goals- And that's cool.

Failure is not possible. Many of us will have taken away from this experience more than we currently realize; and in combination with many other experiences will provide input going forward. I'd call that growth.

When you're ready to try this again I would be happy to work with you. Thanks again!
post #704 of 709
I, too, think the endeavor was worthwhile, despite the results and what any would have to say (pro or con) about them. Because penn admits to not being neutral, that leaves the door open for suggestions that the listening portion of the tests are compromised. I don't think it helps to go there. Neither does it help to ignore science in an attempt to get at what's going on in the complex interactions that take place between components and the cables that connect them.

I have no axe to grind either way really, but my general thought has been that differences are possible in theory due simply to the number of variables involved. And yes, I have heard some differences in my system upon changing an IC cable. But this was in one particular spot in the chain (preamp to power amp), it wasn't a listening test (just regular listening, plus the change was out of necessity and guided by my wallet rather than hype), and while the difference was noticeable but subtle (to me), I know one person's "subtle" is another person's "dramatic."

Anyway, the debate will continue, and my hope is that it does so without the all-too-frequent negatively-charged talk that renders rational discussion difficult or impossible.

For what it's worth, I saw this on Wireworld's website. While they are a vendor with a product to sell, I like their general approach:

EVALUATING CABLES OBJECTIVELY
The superior fidelity of WireWorld audio cables can be demonstrated in objective listening tests, which show that they sound more like a direct connection than other cables. They also preserve square wave test signals better than other cables. However, laboratory testing and specifications can be easily misused in cable marketing and are often misleading. Test instruments are useful tools for product development and quality control, but the most important cable parameter of all is value, which can only be measured with human perception.

Some people still doubt that there are any real benefits to upgrade cables. A few double-blind ABX cable tests, which failed to prove that any cable differences were audible, would appear to support that position. However, ABX style listening tests were proven to be ineffective in the development of the compressed audio formats, such as MP3, and are therefore of questionable validity in cable testing. The listening tests performed by the Motion Picture Experts Group (MPEG) and WireWorld are ABC-hidden reference' tests, which utilize a control' such as a bypass (i.e., a direct connection). WireWorld has promoted double-blind cable tests for over a decade, because they provide valuable answers when they are done correctly.

In the fifteen years since we developed and patented The Interconnect Comparator, our ongoing double-blind cable bypass tests have revealed that the most consistently audible cable effects are the tonal and spatial colorations caused by electromagnetic (inductive) interaction. Material upgrades can provide worthwhile improvements in fidelity, but sonic neutrality and transparency can only be achieved by thoroughly optimizing the inductive properties of a cable until it preserves the natural harmonic structure of a direct connection.
post #705 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

Anyway, the debate will continue,

The debate has been over for quite some time. What you are calling "debate" isn't really debate. It's a continued attempt by some (with a reason) to marginalize the science behind audio cables or blow it out of proportion and plant misconceptions in the minds of consumers as evidenced. vvv
Quote:


For what it's worth, I saw this on Wireworld's website. While they are a vendor with a product to sell, I like their general approach:
post #706 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

The debate has been over for quite some time. What you are calling "debate" isn't really debate. It's a continued attempt by some (with a reason) to marginalize the science behind audio cables or blow it out of proportion and plant misconceptions in the minds of consumers as evidenced. vvv

I used "debate" because it has seemed (to me) that whenever the topic comes up, whether on AVS or elsewhere, that is what often ensued. For the most part I've avoided those threads at the first sign of civility going out the window. In a technical sense, "debate" refers to contention in words or arguments, where people with different opinions each attempt to prove themselves right. Those often turned ugly.

I respectfully disagree that it's over, or over completely, though we may use a word other than "debate" in its formal sense. On this or any thread where both sides visit, a strong assertion by either side will be likely met with comment from the other.
post #707 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Thanks but I believe I failed at this task. Im not a technical writer and I admit to sucking at posting reviews.

I would show the measurements but when they are identical I have a hard time posting them without all the questions surrounding them afterwards. I had a hard time with the conclusion because I wanted to report back something, Joe deserved better (IMO). Obviously these cables do it for others.

After spending time trying to figure it all out with measurements and listening, I ended up feeling that this was work and I try to avoid work daly so I thought I could be building new speakers instead.

Im okay with people thinking it was a failed tested and Im also okay with any "Thank You" for trying.

I want to say thank you also. This was a lot of work, and perhaps it's been useful for you personally to do it. Many, such as myself, don't have time, funds, equipment, or inclination to do something like this. Appreciate the endeavor. Enjoy!
post #708 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I used "debate" because it has seemed (to me) that whenever the topic comes up, whether on AVS or elsewhere, that is what often ensued. For the most part I've avoided those threads at the first sign of civility going out the window. In a technical sense, "debate" refers to contention in words or arguments, where people with different opinions each attempt to prove themselves right. Those often turned ugly.

I respectfully disagree that it's over, or over completely, though we may use a word other than "debate" in its formal sense. On this or any thread where both sides visit, a strong assertion by either side will be likely met with comment from the other.

What I meant by "over" on cable debate is, these online posts sound like a broken record. Someone posts claims, then someone else asks for evidence but it doesn't get presented. Instead, those with claims usually resort to name calling, cheap shots or dismissal thus there is no debate. This hasn't changed since people started posting on internet forums about audio cables. What you want to call "debate" is just a replay of what's been done already, as if some don't look up precedents.
post #709 of 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

I'm a systems person,

I don't know what you mean by this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

and I've very good hearing.

Funny, but quite a few people have siad thsi to me over the years, yet have been completely unable to identify various audio components when they were not able to see what they were whilst listening. So your statement is extremely suspect to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Your above statement looks suspect to me. Especially "all systems"...

It's common sense. But cables, unless they are pathologically bad or faulty will never be the limitation on an audio system performance. Keep trying to count the angels dancing on the head of a pin.
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