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NEW MFW-15 amps (May 2010) *pics* - Page 15

post #421 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Mark Seaton... I guess my biggest question is why you can say the MFW-15 is not a performer when you were the one who designed it? Are you saying that AV1234 used a driver you didn't pick? changed the design from what you started with? used different specs? I'm confused here...so maybe you can clear that up.

I'm not saying it's your fault that the amps were faulty, but....as I understand it the cheap driver that is in the mfw was your choice as a "matched" driver to the amp...and IMHO there is NO WAY that those cheap asss drivers match or can handle the amounts of power that the mfw15 amp (when working properly) can put out.

Maybe you can clear that up a bit?

I'm thinking i'll order a more beefy driver to try in my working MFW-15 just for fun.

Any idea which driver? I'm interested in seeing what you come up with, thanks
post #422 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Any idea which driver? I'm interested in seeing what you come up with, thanks

i'm thinking about the same driver they are offering in their upgrade kit but still using the stock amp in my mfw-15's. they are v1 and have never had any problems, other than being way too powerful for the current driver that it is the stock sub
post #423 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

i'm thinking about the same driver they are offering in their upgrade kit but still using the stock amp in my mfw-15's. they are v1 and have never had any problems, other than being way too powerful for the current driver that it is the stock sub

What about the 1 driver that I mentioned in your thread you started the other day?
post #424 of 2590
Mike

Let me know when you have some time to bring it over, I would love to do a side by side demo and measure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

well i have 2 original v1 amps working perfectly and i could easily either bring it over to Kevin's house or he could bring his modded ones over here to do a side by side test. i'd be willing to do it.
post #425 of 2590
For the 79th time, the driver I am using in the turbo kit is a CUSTOM driver, yes it uses the same frame and cone as the AV15 series, but that is about where the commonality stops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

i'm thinking about the same driver they are offering in their upgrade kit but still using the stock amp in my mfw-15's. they are v1 and have never had any problems, other than being way too powerful for the current driver that it is the stock sub
post #426 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandbagger View Post

For the 79th time, the driver I am using in the turbo kit is a CUSTOM driver, yes it uses the same frame and cone as the AV15 series, but that is about where the commonality stops.

LOL. ok ok
post #427 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

What about the 1 driver that I mentioned in your thread you started the other day?

i must have missed it. which driver is that?
post #428 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

What about the 1 driver that I mentioned in your thread you started the other day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

i must have missed it. which driver is that?


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1263479

You don't follow up on the threads that you start?
post #429 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandbagger View Post

For the 79th time, the driver I am using in the turbo kit is a CUSTOM driver, yes it uses the same frame and cone as the AV15 series, but that is about where the commonality stops.

Do I hear 80?
post #430 of 2590
any suggestions of where i could find a Tempest-X 15" driver? and how much are they?

I can tell you that the 15" driver in the MFW-15 IS VERY CHEAP..i know this
post #431 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

any suggestions of where i could find a Tempest-X 15" driver? and how much are they?

I can tell you that the 15" driver in the MFW-15 IS VERY CHEAP..i know this

http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=652
post #432 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Mark Seaton... I guess my biggest question is why you can say the MFW-15 is not a performer when you were the one who designed it? Are you saying that AV1234 used a driver you didn't pick? changed the design from what you started with? used different specs? I'm confused here...so maybe you can clear that up.

You probably hadn't had time to read or maybe forget all the discussion around the time the Turbo kit was announced. I posted quite a bit about our choice to offer a full kit. I didn't feel there was enough of a performance improvement vs. the cost required in upgrading only the driver or only the amp. You do get an improvement with a better amp on the stock driver, but again, it's not a huge gain given the price of an entirely new amplifier. The requirement of a custom fit amplifier further limited options as I couldn't justify ordering and investing in a minimum of 300-500 customized amplifiers for upgrade kits when for a bit more we had a higher performance option readily available. It basically came down to a choice of a lot of money out of pocket for a ~$500 kit which would make a moderate, but nice improvement, or offer nearly twice the perceived performance for $750 with much more flexibility.

Without testing many parts separately it is very difficult to know by simple observation if a limit you are hearing is the amp or the driver, at least not with any certainty. Even with much more robust drivers the amplifier's capabilities sets a limit. If we put the same exact driver design as the stock Eminence driver in a sexy cast frame with pretty metalwork I'm sure you would be pointing to the amp, even when the performance would be the same. Many of the qualities many like about the MFW-15 come from the characteristics of the driver that other OEM's couldn't deliver at the time, or not for less than a multiple the cost. The driver & amplifier overload at similar points, and there wasn't budget nor desire for a whole lot more as it was already worlds beyond the performance of any other subwoofer previously offered by AV321.

You're after what might have been possible a $799-1099 subwoofer. While it took forever to finally ship, glancing at my early drawings, the MFW-15 was conceived ~4 years ago. It was a highly capable performer in the light of what was available on the market at the time. With many other companies rolling out 15" vented and sealed subs after the MFW-15's first showing at a GTG, I'm more surprised that it's still as attractive to buyers after all this time. It most certainly is a very strong performer in a few important aspects where there were not many comparable options at the time, and many such points of comparison were physically larger or very industrial looking, where size and aesthetics took some priority in the design. When not driven significantly past it's limits, it is a great performer for the money and size.

If cabinet finish isn't an issue, I have posted here in the past that the Epik Empire is worth serious consideration/recommendation for options under $1000 at this scale/size range.

Quote:


I'm not saying it's your fault that the amps were faulty, but....as I understand it the cheap driver that is in the mfw was your choice as a "matched" driver to the amp...and IMHO there is NO WAY that those cheap asss drivers match or can handle the amounts of power that the mfw15 amp (when working properly) can put out.

Maybe you can clear that up a bit?

As you state, that's your opinion. A less efficient driver could "handle" more power and allow you to hear more of the amp hard clipping while producing even less SPL. There are many factors to be weighed in the selection of a component for a product and the OEM who supplies it. Simple dollar price and performance are part of it, but so are many other factors. If the other suppliers for the MFW-15 were as experienced, reliable and responsive as Eminence, this thread probably wouldn't exist. In retrospect I very much regret selecting Eminence to supply this driver as the experience was rather taxing on them and an embarrassment to my otherwise great relations with them.

"cheap ass drivers" are again a personal opinion. Parts Express sells a lesser driver with a 2" VC (2.5" on the MFW') for >$150. In my opinion you are overstating the value and capability of the amplifier. Yes, a more capable driver can offer improvement in performance or behave differently in overload. With AV321 still operating I'm not likely to offer up suggestions unless they are proprietary to me.
post #433 of 2590
Maybe someday someone will take the time to measure the thiel/small parameters of the stock driver. That might help pick a replacement.

For those really curious, PE has a woofer measuring kit(I think would work). I have entertained using it for some of my DIY adventures.
post #434 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

I can tell you that the 15" driver in the MFW-15 IS VERY CHEAP..i know this

Judge a book by it's cover much?

BTW, if it's so cheap, why did you buy 3 of them?
post #435 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Mark Seaton... I guess my biggest question is why you can say the MFW-15 is not a performer when you were the one who designed it? Are you saying that AV1234 used a driver you didn't pick? changed the design from what you started with? used different specs? I'm confused here...so maybe you can clear that up.

If there is ever an example of a product in which the designer's intent and the production hardware were likely to differ, it would seem to be the MFW-15. (Unless we include the UFW-10/ULW-10 with their PE amps, I suppose.) Did Mark Seaton's design documents include a request that internal wiring be run as close as possible to transformers to produce a hum? Did they include instructions to strip or omit screws when installing the driver? Did his specs call for lower-quality or black market components on the amp that would maximize the potential for premature amp failure? It's important to recognize that Seaton produced a design, much the way I might design the air conditioning system for a building, but he had little or no control over the actual materials used (what would be considered "submittal review" in the construction industry) and even less control over the assembly process. I am speculating only here, but I would guess that the only way Seaton could know how closely any MFW-15 produced in the last eighteen months or so matched up with his original design would be to put it on the bench, disassemble it, re-assemble it, and test it.

Also, it's worth noting that the original design of the MFW-15 was for a relatively simple-to-fabricate slot-loaded 15" sub. Keeping costs down was always a priority, even before AV123 started routinely selling them for roughly half of the original MSRP. As the designer, Mark could easily pinpoint the areas in which his original design could be refined and improved by upgrading certain components to a higher price range than he had available originally.
post #436 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Judge a book by it's cover much?

BTW, if it's so cheap, why did you buy 3 of them?

i KNOW what they cost because MLS told me. As for buying 3 of them...i got a good deal on them..sold one, and still have the other 2. The MAIN reason i am hanging onto the 2 i have is because of the beautiful cabinets....but that may change soon.
post #437 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

If there is ever an example of a product in which the designer's intent and the production hardware were likely to differ, it would seem to be the MFW-15. (Unless we include the UFW-10/ULW-10 with their PE amps, I suppose.) Did Mark Seaton's design documents include a request that internal wiring be run as close as possible to transformers to produce a hum? Did they include instructions to strip or omit screws when installing the driver? Did his specs call for lower-quality or black market components on the amp that would maximize the potential for premature amp failure? It's important to recognize that Seaton produced a design, much the way I might design the air conditioning system for a building, but he had little or no control over the actual materials used (what would be considered "submittal review" in the construction industry) and even less control over the assembly process. I am speculating only here, but I would guess that the only way Seaton could know how closely any MFW-15 produced in the last eighteen months or so matched up with his original design would be to put it on the bench, disassemble it, re-assemble it, and test it.

Also, it's worth noting that the original design of the MFW-15 was for a relatively simple-to-fabricate slot-loaded 15" sub. Keeping costs down was always a priority, even before AV123 started routinely selling them for roughly half of the original MSRP. As the designer, Mark could easily pinpoint the areas in which his original design could be refined and improved by upgrading certain components to a higher price range than he had available originally.

That is exactly what i'm asking for. For Seaton to point out a driver that would work with all things being equal to his original design that would boost the benefits of an MFW-15 that he designed. I'm sure there are drivers out there that would work better than what is currently in my subs with the stock amps that he also designed.

in the last 18 months i'd agree with you..but since i have 2 of the original subs...with Seatons design, his driver choice, and amps which i'm assuming were not cut corners on since they are still working perfectly...i would say he should have 100% knowledge of the specs of my subs...what they can do, can't do, should do, and shouldn't do.

What i'm asking for is for Mark Seaton to specify the driver he used, and then suggest a replacement that would work with the spec amps he designed originally. Why is this so difficult? is it just cause he wants to sell more "turbo" upgrades....??? seems like it to me.
post #438 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

What i'm asking for is for Mark Seaton to specify the driver he used, and then suggest a replacement that would work with the spec amps he designed originally. Why is this so difficult? is it just cause he wants to sell more "turbo" upgrades....??? seems like it to me.

So you are asking for design services from Seaton? I guess I overlooked that; I thought you were perhaps asking for an explanation of how he helped develop Sandbagger's upgrade kit and the associated improvements that kit provides.

Some food for thought based on this: The research to identify a driver that would mate up with the original sub amp effectively and provide improvements in overall performance takes some time. Seaton could spend that time developing new products that he can make money from (his own company's products or consulting for other companies that consistently pay their consultants), or he could spend his time helping someone like Sandbagger develop an upgrade kit (work for which Seaton gets paid for his design services), or he could spend his time doing research for you for free. When weighing those options, also consider the possibility that Mark Seaton never got paid all that he was owed for his AV123 design work (such as the X-Plosive subwoofer) and what influence that may have on his decision-making process when asking him to give away free design services now to refine one of his AV123 designs. As a designer who has had owners decide not to pay for the design work I've already done and delivered to them, I know which one I'd choose.
post #439 of 2590
Pure-Evil,

Mark has already answered your question in his last paragraph of his post:

"With AV321 still operating I'm not likely to offer up suggestions unless they are proprietary to me."

That answer makes perfect sense and is clear as day.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=433
post #440 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

That is exactly what i'm asking for. For Seaton to point out a driver that would work with all things being equal to his original design that would boost the benefits of an MFW-15 that he designed. I'm sure there are drivers out there that would work better than what is currently in my subs with the stock amps that he also designed.

in the last 18 months i'd agree with you..but since i have 2 of the original subs...with Seatons design, his driver choice, and amps which i'm assuming were not cut corners on since they are still working perfectly...i would say he should have 100% knowledge of the specs of my subs...what they can do, can't do, should do, and shouldn't do.

What i'm asking for is for Mark Seaton to specify the driver he used, and then suggest a replacement that would work with the spec amps he designed originally. Why is this so difficult? is it just cause he wants to sell more "turbo" upgrades....??? seems like it to me.

Pure-Evil, no dis-respect, but you want Mark Seaton, who is in the subwoofer business, and spends all kinds of money and time in research and development to give you that type of info???
This is not some DIY'er immersed in a hobby. It is analogous to asking AMG for research and development info on thier Mercedes Benz customization. Mark might be one hell of a nice guy and goes out of his way to help but this is his businesss.
post #441 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshKo View Post

Pure-Evil,

Mark has already answered your question in his last paragraph of his post:

"With AV321 still operating I'm not likely to offer up suggestions unless they are proprietary to me."

That answer makes perfect sense and is clear as day.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=433


right...so basically he's not willing to help anyone out unless he's making money on it. gotcha. even though the driver that was spec for the mfw is substandard for the amp matched with it.

i'm not asking for any free work, i'm just asking for him to let us know what one of the other, more expensive drivers they were considering that would be better quality were. just name one or two so we know where to look. but whatever i guess.

i'm thinking of building a DIY 21" Maelstrom w/ Behring EP4000 amp soon anyways
post #442 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

Pure-Evil, no dis-respect, but you want Mark Seaton, who is in the subwoofer business, and spends all kinds of money and time in research and development to give you that type of info???
This is not some DIY'er immersed in a hobby. It is analogous to asking AMG for research and development info on thier Mercedes Benz customization. Mark might be one hell of a nice guy and goes out of his way to help but this is his businesss.

i guess i'm more of a "audio/home theater community" type guy who helps out whenever/where ever i can.... i guess it really is just all about the money for these other guys. that's just sad....honestly. it's not like he'd have to do any research at all...as they had specs on many different drivers that would work with that amp/box....but were more expensive. all i'm asking for is to know which better drivers those were so some of us would have a cheaper upgrade option.

you don't have to agree, and Seaton doesn't have to help any of us out (unless we pay him of course) that's fine and it is what it is..but I don't see any harm in helping those of us who have mfw15's and are not 100% satisfied with his chosen driver.
post #443 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

If there is ever an example of a product in which the designer's intent and the production hardware were likely to differ, it would seem to be the MFW-15. (Unless we include the UFW-10/ULW-10 with their PE amps, I suppose.) Did Mark Seaton's design documents include a request that internal wiring be run as close as possible to transformers to produce a hum? Did they include instructions to strip or omit screws when installing the driver? Did his specs call for lower-quality or black market components on the amp that would maximize the potential for premature amp failure? It's important to recognize that Seaton produced a design, much the way I might design the air conditioning system for a building, but he had little or no control over the actual materials used (what would be considered "submittal review" in the construction industry) and even less control over the assembly process. I am speculating only here, but I would guess that the only way Seaton could know how closely any MFW-15 produced in the last eighteen months or so matched up with his original design would be to put it on the bench, disassemble it, re-assemble it, and test it.

Also, it's worth noting that the original design of the MFW-15 was for a relatively simple-to-fabricate slot-loaded 15" sub. Keeping costs down was always a priority, even before AV123 started routinely selling them for roughly half of the original MSRP. As the designer, Mark could easily pinpoint the areas in which his original design could be refined and improved by upgrading certain components to a higher price range than he had available originally.

Pretty well on the mark gonk. Also remember the price of the cabinets from Cali ended up being much higher than originally quoted and pushed the selling point higher than was considered in the original design. From all of what owners have reported, the current drivers are still the same part number from Eminence. That means at least the intent is the same. It is pretty clear from the QC results that AV321 never set up any test and measurement process for documentation of the function or performance of what was being shipped. Who knows if there were any changes in assembly or in part suppliers over the 3+ years. I know I have caught changes from every supplier which should have been equivalent but some detail caused changes. Sometimes they are just changes to adjust for, and sometimes they are problematic. As any product and it's production process matures there are changes and adjustments which can be made to insure better consistency and throughput. Without such adjustments, it's just as easy for things to get more difficult. Good relationships with suppliers are just as important as the quality and capabilities of the supplier. In this case that relationship was mostly lip-service.
post #444 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

i guess i'm more of a "audio/home theater community" type guy who helps out whenever/where ever i can.... i guess it really is just all about the money for these other guys. that's just sad....honestly. it's not like he'd have to do any research at all...as they had specs on many different drivers that would work with that amp/box....but were more expensive. all i'm asking for is to know which better drivers those were so some of us would have a cheaper upgrade option.

I understand why you feel this way and I am not trying to "pile on" but there is nothing wrong with trying to make a living in the CE business. I also do not think the current situation with the MFW-15 is Mark Seaton's problem. I actually applaud him for offering a simple solution to MFW-15 owners. This solution may seem expensive to you but others can see the value it provides.

I am considering the upgrade but I am also one of those that has a V2 power supply working to my satisfaction. Now I also know that it could blow at any time. I am actually hoping this upgrade will be available for some time to come and look at it more as an option I can turn to if and when that day arrives.

I really think you should continue to work with the DIY community and build your ultimate sub. To me this would provide you with the satisfaction you are looking for. I do not think the MFW-15 will ever meet that bar for you even if Mark were to provide you with free advice for an off-the-shelf driver option.

Best Regards,

JD
post #445 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

I understand why you feel this way and I am not trying to "pile on" but there is nothing wrong with trying to make a living in the CE business. I also do not think the current situation with the MFW-15 is Mark Seaton's problem. I actually applaud him for offering a simple solution to MFW-15 owners. This solution may seem expensive to you but others can see the value it provides.

I am considering the upgrade but I am also one of those that has a V2 power supply working to my satisfaction. Now I also know that it could blow at any time. I am actually hoping this upgrade will be available for some time to come and look at it more as an option I can turn to if and when that day arrives.

I really think you should continue to work with the DIY community and build your ultimate sub. To me this would provide you with the satisfaction you are looking for. I do not think the MFW-15 will ever meet that bar for you even if Mark were to provide you with free advice for an off-the-shelf driver option.

Best Regards,

JD


i hear ya. i'm giving serious thoughts to a maelstrom 21" build with an EP2500 or EP4000 just not sure yet. I have time, and i like to do woodworking...so it might be a fun project. the drivers are only $550.00 or so...and i can get the amp for around 200.00 then i just have to build the box.
post #446 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

i guess i'm more of a "audio/home theater community" type guy who helps out whenever/where ever i can.... i guess it really is just all about the money for these other guys. that's just sad....honestly. it's not like he'd have to do any research at all...as they had specs on many different drivers that would work with that amp/box....but were more expensive. all i'm asking for is to know which better drivers those were so some of us would have a cheaper upgrade option.

*sigh* Mark didn't use a standard off the shelf driver in the MFW-15. He didn't hand Kevin a standard off the shelf driver in the Turbo Kit. They're both custom. You want him to tell you what standard off the shelf driver will work better than the custom Eminence driver because you seem to be operating from the viewpoint that Mark considered a variety of "better" off the shelf drivers prior to having to downgrade to a custom "cheap" driver from Eminence due to extreme price pressure.

That just isn't what transpired, which is precisely why Mark can't tell you what off the shelf drivers will work "better" in place of the Eminence unit.

Further, your posts are abrasive and condescending. If you asked me for help I wouldn't offer it either, and I'm not in it for the money. Maybe if you were polite you'd get somewhere, but attacking people while demanding they help you doesn't seem work too well does it?
post #447 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

*sigh* Mark didn't use a standard off the shelf driver in the MFW-15. He didn't hand Kevin a standard off the shelf driver in the Turbo Kit. They're both custom. You want him to tell you what standard off the shelf driver will work better than the custom Eminence driver because you seem to be operating from the viewpoint that Mark considered a variety of "better" off the shelf drivers prior to having to downgrade to a custom "cheap" driver from Eminence due to extreme price pressure.

That just isn't what transpired, which is precisely why Mark can't tell you what off the shelf drivers will work "better" in place of the Eminence unit.

well i'm sorry but i gotta tell ya i'm having a VERY hard time believing the driver in the mfw15 is anything other than an off the shelf cheap asssed driver. i do not believe for 1 second that it is a "custom" driver designed specifically for av321. just no way. especially since i know what they are paying for these drivers...and let me assure you it is less than dinner for 3 at McDonalds.
post #448 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

well i'm sorry but i gotta tell ya i'm having a VERY hard time believing the driver in the mfw15 is anything other than an off the shelf cheap asssed driver. i do not believe for 1 second that it is a "custom" driver designed specifically for av321. just no way. especially since i know what they are paying for these drivers...and let me assure you it is less than dinner for 3 at McDonalds.

Do you believe everything MLS tells you?

Besides, if it's a off the shelf cheap ass driver you should be able to find someone selling it. Be sure to let us know when you find it.
post #449 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

i guess i'm more of a "audio/home theater community" type guy who helps out whenever/where ever i can.... i guess it really is just all about the money for these other guys. that's just sad....honestly. it's not like he'd have to do any research at all...as they had specs on many different drivers that would work with that amp/box....but were more expensive. all i'm asking for is to know which better drivers those were so some of us would have a cheaper upgrade option.

you don't have to agree, and Seaton doesn't have to help any of us out (unless we pay him of course) that's fine and it is what it is..but I don't see any harm in helping those of us who have mfw15's and are not 100% satisfied with his chosen driver.

You're confused or have a very different idea about how a product like the MFW-15 gets developed. None of the drivers considered for the MFW-15 had retail equivalents sold to the DIY community. They were all custom built to spec. There are a few drivers on the DIY market which might work comparably to the original driver. I haven't personally tested or used those drivers in this sort of application, and can't tell you if they will have overload problems or how accurate the T/S & Le parameters are to measured reality (they always require some tweaking for accuracy). If I even suggest a candidate or two there will posts stating that I "recommend" this driver in the MFW-15. Better yet, any disappointment in the result will come back as my fault when it doesn't sufficiently impress.

Since I have use the driver and a few derivatives plenty, I can tell you that when they are shipping the drivers again, either stock AV15 driver is capable enough to let you hear the MFW's own amp clipping, which is at the same level or less than 2dB beyond what the stock driver allows. In terms of upper bass impact most options to the DIY market will be less efficient and won't provide the same kick. As I have posted many times the improvement is a bit modest for the $250-300 cost if you have a functional original driver beyond feeding the ego in having a beefier/prettier driver. With the 1000W amplifier of the Turbo kit adjusted as we have you can take advantage of the more capable driver to get both improved sound quality and output across the band, especially down low.
post #450 of 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Do you believe everything MLS tells you?

Besides, if it's a off the shelf cheap ass driver you should be able to find someone selling it. Be sure to let us know when you find it.

if they WERE expensive i'm sure they would be a lot less willing to just ship out driver after driver after driver to me and others when they blow up..which they do fairly often btw. and think about it...they sell the MFW15 for $300.00 at times...so you really think there is a $100+ driver in that sub? gimme a break.
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