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Black level measurements of recent LCDs and Plasmas....ENJOY! - Page 5

post #121 of 209
5/30/10 at 3:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domcorleone View Post

are these readings post calibration? Or are they out the box readings?

flatpanelshd.com includes both out of the box numbers and post calibration numbers....I only use calibrated numbers from that website...

All the other numbers are post calibration...
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post #122 of 209
5/30/10 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

flatpanelshd.com includes both out of the box numbers and post calibration numbers....I only use calibrated numbers from that website...

All the other numbers are post calibration...

thank you for the info!
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post #123 of 209
5/31/10 at 1:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

So I have been trying to find info on the black level rise measurements of both the Panasonic G20/25s and the VT20/25s to no avail.....can someone help me out here since it was noted I should add the black level rise numbers to the Panasonic listings?

I don't think anyone had a problem with black levels rising on a 2010 model yet,maybe no one has used one long enough yet for an increase to show?Panasonic changed the voltage increases and maybe they got it right this time.Some people already assume the black levels will rise because last years models did and include this as an issue for Panasonic when recommending a different brand. I hope if someone has seen or measured a BL rise in a 2010 model they would post the information.If someone already did then I missed it.
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post #124 of 209
5/31/10 at 3:45pm
Thread Starter 
I am starting to think that the whole "you should post the post rise numbers" was an attempt to stir up something in this thread, because I STILL cannot find any significant post-rise measurements on either the G20/25 or the VT20/25s, and believe me, I've looked.....

I have seen the "3X rise" number quoted often and I guess that is based on the worse-case-scenario 2009 V10 numbers.....I also guess these people are talking our of their arses too because there is no evidence to back it up

Do I believe the 2010 Panasonic will experience a black level rise?

YES


Until we get actual figures, how much of a rise it will end up to be is speculation at this point...


I think its pretty telling that, even though the G20/25 has been available for several months now, we still don't see any figures on its rise
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post #125 of 209
5/31/10 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

I STILL cannot find any significant post-rise measurements on either the G20/25 or the VT20/25s, and believe me, I've looked.....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18388330
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post #126 of 209
5/31/10 at 6:02pm
If we're including figures from AVS members, the figure for the PNxxC7000 should be updated to reflect the decrease in black level post firmware change, as mentioned in in the settings thread. Mantisboxer reports 0.021 ftL with firmware 1019. Mantisboxer's previous value for firmware 1017 (0.027) meshes with what was reported in ChadB's review (0.026). (mentioned here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post18540559)

A detailed review of the EU PSxxC7000 (equivalent of US PNxxC8000) by SuperCurro reports a calibrated black level of 0.019 ftL (uncalibrated was reported as 0.017-0.018 ftL). (mentioned here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18667527)

He links to his review (post #600) in the translated thread below...

http://translate.google.com/translat...&sl=auto&tl=en
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post #127 of 209
5/31/10 at 7:11pm
Problem with some of the LCD black level measurements, that they only achieve it with a black screen. (LED's turned off entirely)
The useful black level with an Average Picture Level pattern, so in practice with image content is much higher.


Example Samsung UE46C8000


"Black Level

The most obvious thing to mention regarding the Samsung UE46C8000’s black level is the fact that this HD TV, like Samsung’s previous LED LCDs, has quite aggressive auto-dimming, meaning that the intensity of the LEDs is varied according to the average picture level of the programme content. This is a little distracting, and basically means that the picture visibly dims and brightens at times.

This auto-dimming does mean that the Samsung UE46C8000’s black level can be as deep as 0 cd/m2, because the light output from the television can be turned off entirely. Of course, the only thing that would be good for would be watching a black screen! To measure the Samsung UE46C8000’s useful black level, we used an Average Picture Level pattern which let us better assess the black level quality that will be seen with actual video material. Blacks here measured at 0.06 cd/m2, which is a good result."


In practice the black level of the UE C8000 is not 0.001fl, like you listed, it is 0.0175fL (measured by hdtvtest with a APL pattern).


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsu...0100529695.htm



As long as you do not take into account this factor, the list is worthless.
User oriented to the list thinks, black level of the C8000 Edge LED is 5 times better than with a KRP-500M.
In practice, with video material the black level of the C8000 Edge LED is many times worse.
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post #128 of 209
5/31/10 at 8:24pm
Thread Starter 
A new review of the European VT20 arrived on the scene and the black level numbers are

http://translate.google.com/translat...-cm/9/&prev=_t
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post #129 of 209
5/31/10 at 9:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

A new review of the European VT20 arrived on the scene and the black level numbers are

http://translate.google.com/translat...-cm/9/&prev=_t

.0001 fL?! Yeah, that can't be right.
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post #130 of 209
5/31/10 at 10:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

.0001 fL?! Yeah, that can't be right.

After firmware updates some samsung users claim a reduction in black levels from .026 to .016,the firmware on the european vt was v2.103,also someone stated that `` If history repeats itself the 58 and 65 panels will have slightly lower black levels than the 50 and 54.``,I hope we get that vt firmware,and maybe they implemented some kuro tech into it?
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post #131 of 209
5/31/10 at 11:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

I am starting to think that the whole "you should post the post rise numbers" was an attempt to stir up something in this thread, because I STILL cannot find any significant post-rise measurements on either the G20/25 or the VT20/25s, and believe me, I've looked.....

I have seen the "3X rise" number quoted often and I guess that is based on the worse-case-scenario 2009 V10 numbers.....I also guess these people are talking our of their arses too because there is no evidence to back it up

Do I believe the 2010 Panasonic will experience a black level rise?

YES


Until we get actual figures, how much of a rise it will end up to be is speculation at this point...


I think its pretty telling that, even though the G20/25 has been available for several months now, we still don't see any figures on its rise

I don't think there are any "worst case scenarios" with the 2009's--they all seem to experience a pretty clear 3x rise. This is evidenced in Cnet's findings as well as several users here--not just one guy with a really bad panel. The 3x figure concerning the 2010's is courtesy of D-Nice, relayed to him from within Panasonic. These discussions took place in the "Panasonic 2010 Plasma Models" thread. Despite the fact the '09's launched in Feb/March (like the 2010's), the problem didn't come to light until the end of July and didn't really gain traction until several months later. With Panasonic (by their own admission) attempting to "gradual-ize", drag out, or mask the issue on the 2010's, it could be a while before there is any hard evidence of a big change, should there ever prove to be one.
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post #132 of 209
6/1/10 at 5:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I don't think there are any "worst case scenarios" with the 2009's--they all seem to experience a pretty clear 3x rise. This is evidenced in Cnet's findings as well as several users here--not just one guy with a really bad panel. The 3x figure concerning the 2010's is courtesy of D-Nice, relayed to him from within Panasonic. These discussions took place in the "Panasonic 2010 Plasma Models" thread. Despite the fact the '09's launched in Feb/March (like the 2010's), the problem didn't come to light until the end of July and didn't really gain traction until several months later. With Panasonic (by their own admission) attempting to "gradual-ize", drag out, or mask the issue on the 2010's, it could be a while before there is any hard evidence of a big change, should there ever prove to be one.

I thought all Plasma TVs have gradual voltage increases at specified times and when done right the black levels will not change,some models even end up with lower black levels in time.I thought Panasonic said the voltage increases will be more gradual.If they got it right the black levels would not degrade.I would hope Panasonic's engineers are smart enough and had enough time to figure this out.
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post #133 of 209
6/1/10 at 6:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

I am starting to think that the whole "you should post the post rise numbers" was an attempt to stir up something in this thread, because I STILL cannot find any significant post-rise measurements on either the G20/25 or the VT20/25s, and believe me, I've looked.....

I have seen the "3X rise" number quoted often and I guess that is based on the worse-case-scenario 2009 V10 numbers.....I also guess these people are talking our of their arses too because there is no evidence to back it up

Do I believe the 2010 Panasonic will experience a black level rise?

YES


Until we get actual figures, how much of a rise it will end up to be is speculation at this point...


I think its pretty telling that, even though the G20/25 has been available for several months now, we still don't see any figures on its rise

Save yourself some trouble and limit the data to reputable review sites and WELL KNOWN calibrators (D-Nice, Chad B), not weekend warriors. Leave out anything that is hearsay regardless of what meter they say they have and what method they used. If you're going to include all of the noise, then I'd like to report that after applying the firmware update for Pandora to my 65V10, I was able to lose 12 pounds in 1 week.
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post #134 of 209
6/1/10 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I thought all Plasma TVs have gradual voltage increases at specified times and when done right the black levels will not change,some models even end up with lower black levels in time.I thought Panasonic said the voltage increases will be more gradual.If they got it right the black levels would not degrade.I would hope Panasonic's engineers are smart enough and had enough time to figure this out.

If Panasonic eventually get zero emission blacks, then it will be even more important to fix this voltage "issue". Who wants absolute blacks if it rises after a few thousand hours? I certainly wont that.
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post #135 of 209
6/1/10 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I thought all Plasma TVs have gradual voltage increases at specified times and when done right the black levels will not change,some models even end up with lower black levels in time.I thought Panasonic said the voltage increases will be more gradual.If they got it right the black levels would not degrade.I would hope Panasonic's engineers are smart enough and had enough time to figure this out.

I think the hang up is that the 2010's were already finalized and well into production when the issue really blew up. There is the possibility they could do a mid-life fix on later manufactured units (a la THX last year), perhaps they already have. On the other hand, that could prove too costly coupled with pressure to drop MSRP's as the months go by--depending on what it would entail.
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post #136 of 209
6/1/10 at 11:17am
Coming from a PR and marketing standpoint, there are certain things that Panasonic cannot say. If they simply came out and stated that 2010 models would be fixed, that would imply that 2009 models are broken, which would result in a huge loss of money in court and warranty situations. Hopefully they figured out how to implement voltage increases like every other plasma manufacturer. Maybe thats what they are trying to convey when they claim that their 2010 models will have more gradual voltage increases. I'm not buying one until some kind of verdict is reached.
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post #137 of 209
6/1/10 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony6225 View Post

Coming from a PR and marketing standpoint, there are certain things that Panasonic cannot say. If they simply came out and stated that 2010 models would be fixed, that would imply that 2009 models are broken, which would result in a huge loss of money in court and warranty situations. Hopefully they figured out how to implement voltage increases like every other plasma manufacturer.


Thing is, they knew how to do this in the past, it's only the 2008/2009/2010 models that have this problem.

Am I being cynical in thinking they found a technology that allows great out of the box performance and thus great reviews, but at the expense of longterm performance? This way when the blacks go grey the sets are mostly out of warranty, and most people won't notice anyway.
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post #138 of 209
6/1/10 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

A new review of the European VT20 arrived on the scene and the black level numbers are

http://translate.google.com/translat...-cm/9/&prev=_t

I'm just trying to figure out how reliable this site's black level readings are, because .0004 cd/m2 would be the lowest black level measurement of any plasma or LCD ever made. I looked at their review of the G20 and they got .02 cd/m2, which is basically what other calibrators are getting. On the 9G Kuro, they say they got .0031 cd/m2, which is also exactly what hdtvtest and other reliable calibrators measured. So it looks like they know how to measure black level. But it still doesn't make sense for some VT models to be around .0026 - .0048 fL, while others are .0001 fL. Is Panasonic making some changes at the factory?

From the review:

Pioneer Kuro goes hunting ground. Panasonic 50VT20 realized the depth of black from 0.0004 cd/m2 (almost absolute zero) with illumination from 138.6783 cd/m2 calibrated to THX mode.
The result is a contrast 346,695.75 ANSI-a! Pioneer Kuro is, for comparison, hit 0.0031 cd/m2.
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post #139 of 209
6/1/10 at 12:54pm
Somebody screwed up the measurement recording. No VT20 is blacker than the last Kuro, even if only for the first few hundred hours.
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post #140 of 209
6/1/10 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Somebody screwed up the measurement recording. No VT20 is blacker than the last Kuro, even if only for the first few hundred hours.

.
Just curious,how do you know???? How did they get the other tv`s right but only screw up this one? This also says model TX-P50VT20E,what is different on the european models besides newer firmware?
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post #141 of 209
6/1/10 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LORDLICH View Post

.
Just curious,how do you know???? How did they get the other tv`s right but only screw up this one? This also says model TX-P50VT20E,what is different on the european models besides newer firmware?

Its quite easy forthem to mess it up. If they measured the MLL using Vivid mode, they would get a measument like that as the only thing they would be measuring is the afterglow from the phosphors.

The VT20/25s measure 0.004fL (+/- 0.001fL from what I've seen). 2nd Gen Kuros average 0.001fL but can go as low as 0.0004fL (KRP-500/101FD).
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post #142 of 209
6/1/10 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Its quite easy forthem to mess it up. If they measured the MLL using Vivid mode, they would get a measument like that as the only thing they would be measuring is the afterglow from the phosphors.

The VT20/25s measure 0.004fL (+/- 0.001fL from what I've seen). 2nd Gen Kuros average 0.001fL but can go as low as 0.0004fL (KRP-500/101FD).

I thought maybe european models were different,and how does firmware updates make the panel`s darker,some samsung users claim a reduction from
.026 to .016 with updated firmware,I thought firmware could not make your panel darker? Also are the bigger 58 and 65 models lower in black levels???
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post #143 of 209
6/1/10 at 2:03pm
If you used anti-matter could you ever get NEGATIVE black level measurements?
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post #144 of 209
6/1/10 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by surap View Post

If Panasonic eventually get zero emission blacks, then it will be even more important to fix this voltage "issue". Who wants absolute blacks if it rises after a few thousand hours? I certainly wont that.

Sorry for slightly off-topic:

Actually, if the Panasonic 2011 models have zero emission blacks, the voltage increase should not be a problem at all!

The Pioneer technology for zero black level is based on eliminating the initialization step for cells that aren't supposed to show anything (in other words be black). It is the initialization step that creates the unwanted glow from the cells. Therefore, an increase in initialization voltage shouldn't affect the black level.

Here is a link to a post by xrox on this subject.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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post #145 of 209
6/1/10 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Its quite easy forthem to mess it up. If they measured the MLL using Vivid mode, they would get a measument like that as the only thing they would be measuring is the afterglow from the phosphors.

The VT20/25s measure 0.004fL (+/- 0.001fL from what I've seen). 2nd Gen Kuros average 0.001fL but can go as low as 0.0004fL (KRP-500/101FD).

The review says the black level was measured in THX and Professional 1/2 modes.
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post #146 of 209
6/1/10 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

From the review:

Pioneer Kuro goes hunting ground. Panasonic 50VT20 realized the depth of black from 0.0004 cd/m2 (almost absolute zero) with illumination from 138.6783 cd/m2 calibrated to THX mode.
The result is a contrast 346,695.75 ANSI-a! Pioneer Kuro is, for comparison, hit 0.0031 cd/m2.

HDTelevizija.com used a X-Rite Hubble for their measurements, which is an excellent instrument for calibration, but not for black level measurement. According to the specs, the lowest luminance it can measure is 0.0099 fL.

When it comes to black level measurements, there are only a few instruments out there that are capable of measuring very low luminance levels. Here are two examples:

Klein K-10: 0.00006 fL and up. Used by for example HDTVtest.co.uk

Konica Minolta LS-100: 0.001 fL and up. Used by for example D-Nice (I think?)

Flatpanelshd.com have stated that their equipment can only measure from 0.0058 fL and up. Their black level measurements for Pioneer LX5090H and Panasonic VT20 are therefore quite useless (the other measurements, like color accuracy, may be good though).

IMO, this list should only contain results from serious and competent reviewers, who also have access to equipment that can measure very low luminance levels. At least for high-end plasmas and LCDs with local dimming. However, cheaper plasmas and LCDs with higher MLLs may not need super-high-end equipment for reasonably correct black level measurements.

Edit: corrected value for X-Rite Hubble
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post #147 of 209
6/1/10 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordin View Post

HDTelevizija.com used a X-Rite Hubble for their measurements, which is an excellent instrument for calibration, but not for black level measurement. According to the specs, the lowest luminance it can measure is 0.099 fL.

[snip]


Huh? 0.034cd/m^2

Larry
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post #148 of 209
6/1/10 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

The review says the black level was measured in THX and Professional 1/2 modes.

If thats the case, the numbers are either fabricated or they used something that incapable of accurately measuring the VT20/25 MLL.
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post #149 of 209
6/1/10 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Huh? 0.034cd/m^2

Larry

Sorry, missed a decimal. Its supposed to be 0.0099 fL, I've updated the post.
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post #150 of 209
6/1/10 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordin View Post

HDTelevizija.com used a X-Rite Hubble for their measurements, which is an excellent instrument for calibration, but not for black level measurement. According to the specs, the lowest luminance it can measure is 0.0099 fL.

When it comes to black level measurements, there are only a few instruments out there that are capable of measuring very low luminance levels. Here are two examples:

Klein K-10: 0.00006 fL and up. Used by for example HDTVtest.co.uk

Konica Minolta LS-100: 0.001 fL and up. Used by for example D-Nice (I think?)

Flatpanelshd.com have stated that their equipment can only measure from 0.0058 fL and up. Their black level measurements for Pioneer LX5090H and Panasonic VT20 are therefore quite useless (the other measurements, like color accuracy, may be good though).

IMO, this list should only contain results from serious and competent reviewers, who also have access to equipment that can measure very low luminance levels. At least for high-end plasmas and LCDs with local dimming. However, cheaper plasmas and LCDs with higher MLLs may not need super-high-end equipment for reasonably correct black level measurements.

Edit: corrected value for X-Rite Hubble

I also use the K-10
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