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Black level measurements of recent LCDs and Plasmas....ENJOY! - Page 7

post #181 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoal07 View Post

Not local dimmed, it's a plasma.

well I don't know exactly how to call this is plasmas, but those kind of tv's can dim (not totally) every single pixel, black don't look so black like on turned off tv (what LCD's with "local dimming" do)

if you put black pattern or choose source without signal, and then you go down with brightness it will happen... I don't know how to call it but I think everybody know what I mean

there are sometimes quite large differences in the measurements of black in plasmas so I guess some sites measure black at calibrated tv and some of them just measure deepest black which tv can produce
post #182 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly73 View Post

Again, the obsession with black level and no other context. I guess this is the black level thread, so what do I expect?

If 2011 Panasonics were zero emission 0IRE, what would 1IRE look like? How would they jump from zero to not-quite zero? What would the gamma curve look like? Accurate? What would "not quite 0IRE" letterboxes look like? Are they going to have to induce lots of input lag to "predict" when cells could actually be turned off and not require any kind of charging? It could be far, far worse than the "floating blacks" issue. 1IRE is already sporadically firing red and green speckles on my G25 - how would you incorporate that with cells being "off"?

I don't care what a full field 0IRE test screen looks like or even how black the background is during the credits - I care what the set looks like when actual picture content is displayed. True PQ progress requires more than just local dimming parlor tricks. Smooth and natural lighting and graduations are required.

I think we already have a problem with 8 bits not being nearly sufficient to represent the contrast ratios we already have since the increase in illumination possible with the 2010 lineup.

Excellent points. However 8 bits / channel is still pretty OK for a well adjusted gamma curve, as long as you are not using the same 8 bit /ch space to do digital brightness correction, at that point you'd have easily visible artifacts. 10 bit processing on a 8 bit display space should generally be sufficient given the levels we're talking about here.

Speaking about black levels on their own being of limited use, I would love to see ANSI contrast measurements alongside the black levels, although with local dimming, even ANSI or m-ANSI is getting to be a less than complete measure of contrast in moving pictures.
post #183 of 209
how does the c650 (a mid lcd) have a lower black level than sammys top of the line plasma c8000? Is the lcd's black level measured with just a black screen or real material with other bright images? I was thinking of going plasma but if this lcd has a lower black level what's the point, blur and off angle doesn't bother me too much. Does anyone have reasons why I should stay plasma?
post #184 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay541 View Post

how does the c650 (a mid lcd) have a lower black level than sammys top of the line plasma c8000? Is the lcd's black level measured with just a black screen or real material with other bright images? I was thinking of going plasma but if this lcd has a lower black level what's the point, blur and off angle doesn't bother me too much. Does anyone have reasons why I should stay plasma?

LCD's will not hold their black level with any brightness on screen. It will get brighter with more brightness on the screen, to a point where the C8000 will be significantly better.
post #185 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

LCD's will not hold their black level with any brightness on screen. It will get brighter with more brightness on the screen, to a point where the C8000 will be significantly better.

Yup. And the black levels increase as you go further off axis. Especially so on the "better" LED models. This is why I don't care about the MLL values for LCD. They don't tell the whole story like they do with plasma.
post #186 of 209
KLee

Can you please update your Samsung PN C7000 black levels? In an email exchanged with David Katzmaier of CNET, David measured 0.013 for the black levels for the Samsung C7000 Plasma.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18911822


According to Michael Osadciw THX/ISF Certified Calibrator the meter that Chab B uses is not as reliable as the one CNET uses.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18996830
post #187 of 209
Michael Osadciw doesn't know what he is talking about as Chad does not use an i1pro to measure MLLs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by terminaldawn View Post

KLee

Can you please update your Samsung PN C7000 black levels? In an email exchanged with David Katzmaier of CNET, David measured 0.013 for the black levels for the Samsung C7000 Plasma.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18911822


According to Michael Osadciw THX/ISF Certified Calibrator the meter that Chab B uses is not as reliable as the one CNET uses.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18996830
post #188 of 209
Quote:


Measured with my trusty Trichromat-1 meter, the black level was .01 fL and the modified ANSI contrast checked in at 1522:1. There is a good chance that either using Custom mode or ControlCAL's ISF Day mode will result in a higher ANSI contrast ratio.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post18876763
post #189 of 209
The C7000/C8000 Samsung plasma MLL figures are incorrect. Note that the larger panels are meausuring lower. Initial values on f/w 1017 also had elevated MLL.

PN50C7000
0.026 fL (early firmware)
(Chad B; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18455247)
0.017 fL (v1023 fiirmware)
(CNET; http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20018722-1.html)
0.009-0.010 fL
(D-Nice; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...5&postcount=24)

PN50C8000
0.019 fL (v1026 firmware)
(CNET; http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20018722-1.html)
0.032 fL with CS engaged
(CNET; http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...4005777-2.html)
0.009-0.010 fL
(D-Nice; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...5&postcount=24)

PN58C6500
0.0065 fL
(M. Osadciw; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19044591)

PN58C7000
0.007 fL
(Thomas J. Norton; http://www.hometheatermag.com/3d-fla...dtv/index.html)

PN63C7000
0.006-0.007 fL (0.018 fL with CS engaged)
(Chad B; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18455247)

PN58C8000
0.009 fL
(HDGuru; http://hdguru.com/samsung-pn58c8000-...t-review/2384/
0.007-0.008 fL
(D-Nice/HDTV Shootout; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post19262092)
0.01 cd/m^2
(PC Mag; http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369389,00.asp)
post #190 of 209
Re: HD Guru's 58C8000, he got 0.009 fL.

Re: CNet's 50C8000 and 50C7000, where in that article (or another one?) does it state, that didn't use Cinema Smooth for one, and then did use it for the other one?

Also, I am guessing those panels were tested before the firmware update, so they should be lower now. It appears, though, that the 58" and 63" are lower than the 50", even with the FW 1019.

Since the FW made such as change, Cnet should really request these TVs again, so they could re-test them with CS turned off (and on, also, if they wanted to). They would need four TVs, though; a 50" and 58" for C8000 and C7000, respectively.

Well, they really only need a 50" and 58" from one series- since the MLL on each series is typically about the same, with the panel size being the key to MLL difference- but for verification purposes, they would want all four.

Since they kept Panasonic's plasmas such a long time, I don't see why Samsung wouldn't welcome the better press from an updated better review; well, the Samsung TVs sell so well in general, I guess they don't need it.
post #191 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

Re: HD Guru's 58C8000, he got 0.009 fL.

Re: CNet's 50C8000 and 50C7000, where in that article (or another one?) does it state, that didn't use Cinema Smooth for one, and then did use it for the other one?

Also, I am guessing those panels were tested before the firmware update, so they should be lower now. It appears, though, that the 58" and 63" are lower than the 50", even with the FW 1019.

Since the FW made such as change, Cnet should really request these TVs again, so they could re-test them with CS turned off (and on, also, if they wanted to). They would need four TVs, though; a 50" and 58" for C8000 and C7000, respectively.

Well, they really only need a 50" and 58" from one series- since the MLL on each series is typically about the same, with the panel size being the key to MLL difference- but for verification purposes, they would want all four.

Since they kept Panasonic's plasmas such a long time, I don't see why Samsung wouldn't welcome the better press from an updated better review; well, the Samsung TVs sell so well in general, I guess they don't need it.

Thanks for the catch. I updated the MLL from HDGuru.

As far as CS being engaged on CNET's PN50C8000, that's from an email exchange I had with Mr. Katzmaier. He does his testing/measurments with a 1080/24p source and he confirmed that CS was active.

CNET still has the C7000 on loan and it is up-to-date wrt firmware. The improvment in MLL was only documented in the AVS settings thread after the 1st f/w update (1017-->1019; ~25% drop in MLL). CNET's testing on the C7000 occured with the set on 1024 f/w.

Panel size is indeed the key differentiator here. I informed Katzmaier of the MLL data above and did not seem surprised, but said he could only report on the sets in CNET's lab (naturally). I, too, don't understand why his Samsung rep didn't send a larger panel. Perhaps the PR reps are oblivious to these things? It does seem that 50" is the standard size for TV's that they review.

Samsung is clearly more focused on high-margin LED sales. They got their C8000 LED reviewed first thing (despite the fact that the review was not very good... a case of any press is good press???).
post #192 of 209
I'm still not convinced there is a difference with the 50" model. CNET made their measurements with CS engaged, which is known to elevate blacks significantly. Just look at Chad's C7000 review. 0.006 fL with CS off and .019 fL with CS on.
post #193 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

I'm still not convinced there is a difference with the 50" model. CNET made their measurements with CS engaged, which is known to elevate blacks significantly. Just look at Chad's C7000 review. 0.006 fL with CS off and .019 fL with CS on.

He measured 0.006 on the 63".
post #194 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

He measured 0.006 on the 63".

Yes, and .019 with CS on. Do we have any reliable and recent measurements of 50" models with CS turned off?
post #195 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

I'm still not convinced there is a difference with the 50" model. CNET made their measurements with CS engaged, which is known to elevate blacks significantly. Just look at Chad's C7000 review. 0.006 fL with CS off and .019 fL with CS on.

CNET didn't do the C7000-->C8000 SM conversion to enable cinema smooth on their PN50C7000.

Film mode set to off on the C7000 to force 3:2 pulldown...
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_10...l?tag=mncol;1f

Film mode set to Cinema Smooth on the C8000...
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_102-500232.html

Mantisboxer also measured ~0.020 fL on his 50" C7000 on f/w 1019.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1245336
post #196 of 209
What's the measurements for the LG PX950 black level? Because the review on cnet australia says it has deep blacks.
post #197 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by koffas View Post

CNET didn't do the C7000-->C8000 SM conversion to enable cinema smooth on their PN50C7000.

Film mode set to off on the C7000 to force 3:2 pulldown...
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_10...l?tag=mncol;1f

Film mode set to Cinema Smooth on the C8000...
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_102-500232.html

Mantisboxer also measured ~0.020 fL on his 50" C7000 on f/w 1019.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1245336

So, the conclusion is that the 63N7000 with the latest firmware with CS off should produce very similar (if not better) blacks than the 58VT25 (or 65VT25) after all black reductions on the VT as predicted by CNET?

Sorry to ask this, but I'm in Brazil and my options are the 63C7000 and 58VT25 (50% higher in price) and it is very unlikely to be able to check the TVs on site, so I have to buy them "blindly". Thanks for the help.
post #198 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbernstein View Post

So, the conclusion is that the 63N7000 with the latest firmware with CS off should produce very similar (if not better) blacks than the 58VT25 (or 65VT25) after all black reductions on the VT as predicted by CNET?

Sorry to ask this, but I'm in Brazil and my options are the 63C7000 and 58VT25 (50% higher in price) and it is very unlikely to be able to check the TVs on site, so I have to buy them "blindly". Thanks for the help.

From what I have read, this appears to be true.
post #199 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbernstein View Post

So, the conclusion is that the 63N7000 with the latest firmware with CS off should produce very similar (if not better) blacks than the 58VT25 (or 65VT25) after all black reductions on the VT as predicted by CNET?

Sorry to ask this, but I'm in Brazil and my options are the 63C7000 and 58VT25 (50% higher in price) and it is very unlikely to be able to check the TVs on site, so I have to buy them "blindly". Thanks for the help.

Data indicates that the MLL varies with the refresh rate. I'm not sure what broadcast transmission standard is being used in Brazil (PAL)?

The deepest black levels have been measured on 30 / 60Hz or 24Hz (CS disabed) signals

Elevated black levels are being measured on 25Hz or 50Hz signals.

See here... http://dennisthomsen.dk/2010/08/sams...cinema-smooth/
post #200 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeDust View Post

From what I have read, this appears to be true.

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koffas View Post

Data indicates that the MLL varies with the refresh rate. I'm not sure what broadcast transmission standard is being used in Brazil (PAL)?

The deepest black levels have been measured on 30 / 60Hz or 24Hz (CS disabed) signals

Elevated black levels are being measured on 25Hz or 50Hz signals.

See here... http://dennisthomsen.dk/2010/08/sams...cinema-smooth/


I assume the following:

- My Standard cable TV is NTSC, which I guess is 30Hz.
- if I use the DVD player outputting to NTSC (even with PAL DVDs) I'll get the darkest blacks
- BDs (PS3 Region 1 and Sherwood 5004 multi-region) can output anything.

If these assumptions above are correct, per the link you posted, without Cinama Smotth, as a general rule I'll get the same black level in the Samsung 63", as the ones in the Panas VT.

Could you confirm the above? Thanks so much for the clarification.
post #201 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbernstein View Post

Thanks.

I assume the following:

- My Standard cable TV is NTSC, which I guess is 30Hz.
- if I use the DVD player outputting to NTSC (even with PAL DVDs) I'll get the darkest blacks
- BDs (PS3 Region 1 and Sherwood 5004 multi-region) can output anything.

If these assumptions above are correct, per the link you posted, without Cinama Smotth, as a general rule I'll get the same black level in the Samsung 63", as the ones in the Panas VT.

Could you confirm the above? Thanks so much for the clarification.

That is my understanding. The VT25 will have deeper blacks for the first ~1500 hrs. Black levels with then be similar up through the second adjustment, when the VT25 will stabilize around 0.009-0.010 fL, according to CNET's article.
post #202 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Victory View Post

What's the measurements for the LG PX950 black level? Because the review on cnet australia says it has deep blacks.

I would assume that it has the same black levels as the PK950...about 0.012?

Have there been any other measurements of the LG plasmas lately? Is the LG 950 the best choice for black levels in the 50" range currently? (Factoring in black-level rises in the Pannys)
post #203 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeDust View Post

From what I have read, this appears to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koffas View Post

That is my understanding. The VT25 will have deeper blacks for the first ~1500 hrs. Black levels with then be similar up through the second adjustment, when the VT25 will stabilize around 0.009-0.010 fL, according to CNET's article.

Thanks.

I took the chance and bought the Sammy PL63C7000, which people say in forums in Brazil is the equivalent of the US PN63C8000. I wanted it big! Let's see!
post #204 of 209
Great thread. Can't wait till 2011 numbers start rolling in.
post #205 of 209
Just one more day to go for the Panasonic event. Can't wait to see the 2011 Panasonic line-up in person

PS: C5XX, C6XX and C7XX (40" and above) with S-PVA panels have blacks that's comparable to G20/GT20.
post #206 of 209
I'm definitely no expert in the field of calibration or black level numbers for sets but wouldn't it be expected the results to vary by some degree from different people doing the tests and using different instruments? Maybe D-Nice can chime in on that and see what sort of variance one might expect. If so then only those sets tested by the same person using the same method can truly be compared. Another question is, at what point does the normal human eye lose the ability to perceive a difference? Is .002 more noticeable than .005?
post #207 of 209
There will some variation, but the main issues lies with the sensor and the software.

Also, the it is best to measure both ANSI and Dynamic Range and provide both the black and white level.
post #208 of 209
Does anybody have the black level measurement for either of the Samsung C680 series plasmas?
post #209 of 209
Is there a black level measurement for the LG LHX? I have one and I've had the LH90 as well and the black is much darker on the LHX.
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