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Black level measurements of recent LCDs and Plasmas....ENJOY! - Page 3

post #61 of 209
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Samsung B650 plasma = .012. KLee, you need to add this to post #1. Calibrator Tom Huffman is known here on AVS. I have also measured the same. Here is the link:

http://www.displaycalibrationonline....lasma_2009.asp

Noted and updated
post #62 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffs386 View Post

regarding the Sony XBR8

For what it's worth, we measured the black levels on a completely dark screen after calibration and found the Sony a hair darker: 0.001 cd/m2 versus the Pioneer's 0.002. Nobody watches a black screen, however. With regular program content, the two TVs came as close as we've seen to reproducing the ideal black.

Those comments were made prior to CNET reviewing the 8500's from Samsung and LG. They are both darker than the XBR8, so first of all those comments are outdated, and more importantly they only hold relevance for full-black screens.
post #63 of 209
Thread Starter 
Tom Huffman's measurements have been added
post #64 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

While I know that Pioneer black levels are superb, I also routinely see Pio panels on display which look no better and even sometimes inferior to the competition in overall PQ, again uncalibrated.

Anyone who has ever seen a Samsung plasma next to a Pioneer 9G Kuro (calibrated or not) in a dark room would have no trouble appreciating the much deeper black levels on the Pio. If your comparisons were made in a bright environment--well, what can I say except that a Samsung or Toshiba LED will look better than both the Kuro and the Sammy plaz! LG (Lotsa Glare/Light Grays) is an exception, since they do not know how to make a decent filter.

Quote:


So while deep black level is extremely nice to have, in practice it is less important than many make it out to be.

I disagree. Deep blacks are probably the single most important facet of PQ. What a number of plasma fanboys on AVS seem to be in a bit of denial about, is that for most people, the black levels of a display matter in BOTH ambient light and in a completely dark room. I hardly doubt everyone watches their plasmas only in the dark or only with a small bias light behind their plasma most of the time. Certainly there are plenty of people on AVS who have their plasmas in rooms with multiple windows, or who watch with the lights on in the evening. Black level measurements are all well and good, but they do not tell the whole story. They ONLY reveal which displays will have the deepest blacks in the DARK, so they are skewed favorably toward plasmas, which excel in the dark. LCD's and LED's with dark black filters will easily have deeper blacks in bright rooms, but how CONVENIENT for plasma, that no one takes MLL measurements in a bright room, but they throw a thick dark blanket over the TV to block out the light. That's ALL WELL AND GOOD if you also throw a blanket over your TV while you WATCH it during the daylight hours, but what if you don't? Then the tables are turned, and the plasmas have the weak black levels compared to the LCD's.

In my mind, if a dark-coated LCD/LED has similar or even slightly greater black levels as a PDP in the dark, then by default the LCD easily wins when it comes to depth of black levels (albeit not necessarily quality of blacks), precisely because the LCD display will be much more VERSATILE, giving you deep inky blacks on a sunny saturday afternoon when you are watching a ball game, as well as in the evening after dark when you are watching a flick. Of course there is an asterisk here, because the LCD gets docked (especially in lower-light conditions) if you cannot watch it close to front and center.

So black levels are extremely important--but you must take into account much more than just a 0 IRE signal, where LCD's and LED's can cheat by shutting completely off, and you must ALSO take into account what the blacks will look like during your typical viewing conditions. Even one lamp in front of a plasma and the black levels go up quite a bit, and then what good are your 0.00000001 blacks, eh? If you sit a ways off-axis from your XBR8 or Sammy 8500, what good is the 0.00000001 black level, which was measured straight on?

In a bright room with windows anywhere in front of your plasma, a Kuro will not have any deeper looking blacks than an 8 series Samsung. I don't care what anyone's meter says. I had two B860's next to the vaunted 500M in my living room, and when daylight was pouring in there was no difference. They looked essentially identical. As the sun set, and darkness fell, the Samsung looked like a cheap Sylvania LCD next to the Kuro, as long as there was any significant amount of black on the screen, like letterbox or pillarbox bars. When there was not a lot of black on the screen, the Sammy held its own next to the Kuro.
post #65 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony6225 View Post

I've actually read that in a few places. It seems that once the black levels drop to around .003 cd/m2 or lower it really doesnt make much of a difference anymore.

Not true! This is a myth. On fades to black, even the deepest 9G Kuros look a very dark gray--they do not look totally black. And a 500M could be possibly half your quoted figure. So if it doesn't make any difference below 0.001 ftL, then why do people who see a 500M/101FD next to other 9G Kuros say they can observe deeper blacks on the 50 in. monitors? (obviously in a dark room, on low APL scenes).

When I had my B8500 right next to my 500M in the dark and there was a fade to black the difference was quite striking. The 500M looked much lighter when I had an LED that totally shut-off as a reference right next to it. Likewise for scenes with white credits centered on a black background, and other content where there were large swaths of black concentrated in one area. The LED's could shut off in that portion of the screen, giving deeper blacks, albeit sometimes with added blooming.

If you set an OLED next to a Kuro in a dark room and watched both of them, you would NOT be saying that anything below 0.003 cd/m² doesn't make a difference. Human eyesight can discern to a mere fraction of that figure. Add several zeros.

I would say the 500M only gets a B+ when it comes to blacks in a dark room. Perhaps Pioneer's ECC would have gotten an A-.

An A or A+ grade is reserved for OLED.
post #66 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

Yes. the un46c8000 Samsung I have has "black hole" blacks and stunning contrast, particularly in a bright room, which blows away CRT in a bright room. You'll also find shadow detail is far better on the Samsung if the CRT is set to deliver dark blacks. Dark room viewing, also better for the Samsung. The only drawback is one needs to sit head on.

BTW, the test done on blacks said it fluctuated between 0.001 and 0. Believe me, in a bright room when the picture goes to black it looks like 0 to me. That is a monumental breakthrough AFAIC. One no longer has to watch TV in a dimly lit room. It maintains dark blacks even when it is running very bright, far brighter than any CRT. This is accomplished by the light absorbing tint on the screen. It is the darkest thing in the room because it seems to absorb room light without hurting shadow detail.

I share your enthusiasm, because my B8500 had inky deep blacks all the day long, no matter how bright it got in the room. No longer any need to scramble to close the shades like when I had my plasmas--I could enjoy the sunshine coming into the room and I didn't have to hunker down in the dark. Even with the blinds closed, they would glow when the sun bore down on them, and I have a couple windows without blinds, and so I could not get deep inky blacks even with the blinds drawn on any of my plasmas with the darkest filters (Hitachi X902, Sammy B860, Pioneer 500M).

But let's be honest. The B8500 and the C8000 are not "black hole" black when the sun sets. They have excellent blacks, but not "black hole" blacks, except on an all-black screen. In a dark room the 500M has better blacks than both the B8500 and the C8000 on most content, and this includes black bars. There are some scenes which are well-suited to LED, where entire portions of LED zones can be shut completely off. An LED can look darker on those occasional scenes, which is nice. But it is more the exception than the rule.

I've come to the conclusion that the only way I am truly going to be satisfied is to mount my 500M and a high-end Sammy LED back to back. I need to buy two inexpensive flat wall mounts and bolt/weld them together, back to back. I will get the kind that adjusts to 65 inches for future upgradability. Perhaps I will put a couple spacer plates in between them and run a pole down through the stand. Then I will mount the PDP and the LED together back to back and the pole will swivel 360°. Then I can enjoy these "black hole" blacks that you are all jazzed up about during the day, and also appreciate the better Samsung processing for TV content, as well as the excellent AMP motion processing, but then when I need to watch film content and other stuff in the dark I can just whip that pole around 180° and watch the Kuro. I could run the cords up through the pole. I would have to make sure they were long enough to account for the twisting.

Do you think this sounds feasible?
post #67 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

I've come to the conclusion that the only way I am truly going to be satisfied is to mount my 500M and a high-end Sammy LED back to back. I need to buy two inexpensive flat wall mounts and bolt/weld them together, back to back. I will get the kind that adjusts to 65 inches for future upgradability. Perhaps I will put a couple spacer plates in between them and run a pole down through the stand. Then I will mount the PDP and the LED together back to back and the pole will swivel 360°. Then I can enjoy these "black hole" blacks that you are all jazzed up about during the day, and also appreciate the better Samsung processing for TV content, as well as the excellent AMP motion processing, but then when I need to watch film content and other stuff in the dark I can just whip that pole around 180° and watch the Kuro. I could run the cords up through the pole. I would have to make sure they were long enough to account for the twisting.

Do you think this sounds feasible?

lol, That would be an awesome setup
post #68 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

What a number of plasma fanboys on AVS seem to be in a bit of denial about, is that for most people, the black levels of a display matter in BOTH ambient light and in a completely dark room. I hardly doubt everyone watches their plasmas only in the dark or only with a small bias light behind their plasma most of the time. Certainly there are plenty of people on AVS who have their plasmas in rooms with multiple windows, or who watch with the lights on in the evening.

You're certainly right about this. What I find facinating about this forum is that it's thinking is based on the market 5 years ago when plasmas were very expensive and were almost universally being installed in cold, dark basements as a "Home Theater". Not at all the case today. They are cheap and most are setup in well lit family rooms like mine is. So my Panny plasma has to perform in both bright daylight and the dark. That makes the dim THX mode useless so mine is setup in the custom mode where you can get it bright enough to use in the daytime. All in all, I feel it performs very well given the range of conditions in the room.

I cannot, however, get past the motion issues of the current generation of LED LCDs though. While setting up my friends Samsung LED, the "smoothing" feature made the movie on HBO look like a computer generated cartoon. The perfecty smooth even movements look completely unrealistic, especially in close head shots of several women blabbing incoherently in one scene. It was really bizarre to watch their heads turning in such a way. I don't know how anybody can watch those things.
post #69 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

I share your enthusiasm, because my B8500 had inky deep blacks all the day long, no matter how bright it got in the room. No longer any need to scramble to close the shades like when I had my plasmas--I could enjoy the sunshine coming into the room and I didn't have to hunker down in the dark. Even with the blinds closed, they would glow when the sun bore down on them, and I have a couple windows without blinds, and so I could not get deep inky blacks even with the blinds drawn on any of my plasmas with the darkest filters (Hitachi X902, Sammy B860, Pioneer 500M).

But let's be honest. The B8500 and the C8000 are not "black hole" black when the sun sets. They have excellent blacks, but not "black hole" blacks, except on an all-black screen. In a dark room the 500M has better blacks than both the B8500 and the C8000 on most content, and this includes black bars. There are some scenes which are well-suited to LED, where entire portions of LED zones can be shut completely off. An LED can look darker on those occasional scenes, which is nice. But it is more the exception than the rule.

I've come to the conclusion that the only way I am truly going to be satisfied is to mount my 500M and a high-end Sammy LED back to back. I need to buy two inexpensive flat wall mounts and bolt/weld them together, back to back. I will get the kind that adjusts to 65 inches for future upgradability. Perhaps I will put a couple spacer plates in between them and run a pole down through the stand. Then I will mount the PDP and the LED together back to back and the pole will swivel 360°. Then I can enjoy these "black hole" blacks that you are all jazzed up about during the day, and also appreciate the better Samsung processing for TV content, as well as the excellent AMP motion processing, but then when I need to watch film content and other stuff in the dark I can just whip that pole around 180° and watch the Kuro. I could run the cords up through the pole. I would have to make sure they were long enough to account for the twisting.

Do you think this sounds feasible?

Wouldn't it be easier (and less expensive) to just put blinds/drapes or shades on the windows that don't have them, and keep the Kuro?
post #70 of 209
Why does CNET say that the blacks on the Samsung C590/550 are just average or even less than average when compared to the new sets?

ChadB's measurement of the black level on the C550 was very contradictory and showed it was among the best.

Don't understand.
post #71 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Wouldn't it be easier (and less expensive) to just put blinds/drapes or shades on the windows that don't have them, and keep the Kuro?

LOL! Exactly. This makes me think of the NASA Russia space joke:

Nasa spent milions of dollars developing a pen to work in zero gravity and the Russians just used a pencil

CD
post #72 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnelight06 View Post

Why does CNET say that the blacks on the Samsung C590/550 are just average or even less than average when compared to the new sets?

ChadB's measurement of the black level on the C550 was very contradictory and showed it was among the best.

Don't understand.

I thought they just reviewed the 590
post #73 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddix View Post

I thought they just reviewed the 590

I believe you're right but I'm assuming the picture quality is very similar.
post #74 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA_DaveB View Post

I cannot, however, get past the motion issues of the current generation of LED LCDs though. While setting up my friends Samsung LED, the "smoothing" feature made the movie on HBO look like a computer generated cartoon. The perfecty smooth even movements look completely unrealistic, especially in close head shots of several women blabbing incoherently in one scene. It was really bizarre to watch their heads turning in such a way. I don't know how anybody can watch those things.

I didn't have this problem at all on my B8500. I can't speak to the 2010 models as maybe Samsung has screwed them up. But for the 2009 models, all one has to do is go into the AMP settings and choose 'Custom'. Then turn the (de)judder setting down to zero. Problem solved! No smoothing, no soap opera effect, no 3:2 pull down on 24p. The motion cadence looks very similar to a plasma, and you get blurry pans. Those IDIOTS at Samsung ship their TV's with terrible motion settings as default out of the box, and then they bury the motion settings deep inside the menu. Those IDIOTS at Samsung, if they had even half a brain, should offer a FILM preset, that turns the blur up to 8-10, but the judder down to zero. Are you listening, you IDIOTS at Samsung? Would it be so hard to add a FILM preset to your motion settings, so people that don't like the soap-opera effect could easily figure out a way to have no smoothing? I suppose that is too much to ask from a multi-billion dollar electronics company that can't even get their specs on their TV's right each year. Every year people are left confused and guessing as to what features are included on which models. Samsung should ship their TV's with judder no higher than 2 out of the box, and preferably zero. Then if people want to turn up the smoothing they can learn how to do it. But they should first see the TV without excessive smoothing. How hard would it be for Samsung and other manufacturers to include a built-in video explaining this stuff about their TV? Samsung has all kinds of stupid kid cartoons and sing-alongs, recipes, exercise clips, and other junk they include with their TV; how hard would it be for them to include a built-in brief video tutorial explaining how to adjust things like contrast, brightness, backlight, motion (AMP), etc. on their TV? What a concept!

Plasmas still hold the advantage in the set it and forget it area. LCD's/LED's are more finicky. You have to fiddle with the motion settings to get the best results. You have to crank the backlight in a bright room, but then have enough sense to dial it back down when the room gets dark. Many people buy LED's and keep the backlight cranked up high as it comes out of the box, for a bright room, and then when it gets dark they don't realize that they need to reduce the backlight, to get deeper blacks and less flashlighting/clouding. So then they come on AVS and complain that edge-lit LED's suck because of all the flashlighting, clouding, etc. I'm not saying that reducing the backlighting will totally eliminate the mura, but taking it down to reasonable levels in a dark room can certainly minimize the issues that people complain about.

Plenty of other people who buy these Sammy LED's don't realize that YOU MUST GO INTO CUSTOM AND TURN THE JUDDER DOWN TO ZERO. They simply leave the motion settings at default, or they try some of the garbage presets that Samsung offers, and then they say their LED's suck for motion and give all kinds of strange artifacts and a soap opera effect.

I actually preferred the motion (when setup correctly) on the Sammy 8500 to the Kuro. I compared them right next to each other, running the same content. I didn't see any issues with motion blur on the 8500, but I do see motion blur issues on the Kuro. What? Motion blur issues on a plasma? Well, what else is phosphor lag but greenish-yellow blur? That's what it looks like to me when there is fast motion on certain content.

When I ran the Sammy at a blur setting of 10, for maximum motion resolution, I would occasionally see artifacting, but not too often, and I didn't regard it as any more annoying than the occasional phosphor trails that I see on plasmas, which are also artifacts. If one is particularly sensitive to any artifacts whatsoever, then they should turn the blur down to 7 or 8, and even those rare artifacts would all but disappear.

I simply don't accept this propaganda about plasmas not having motion issues. As long as annoying phosphor trails remain, I regard plasmas to be not much better than the best LCD/LED panels when it comes to motion.

The advantage with Samsung's excellent AMP is that it is fully customizable, and there actually is some content that looks a lot better with some "smoothing" added. Some content doesn't. I don't know why the folks over at Sony haven't caught on to this fact, and still don't offer their users the choice to customize the frame interpolation. They better get their act together.

Frame interpolation can be a good thing. Simply try watch something like Planet Earth: Mountains with some (de)judder dialed in, and I'm sure you would agree. 24fps is not enough to render many pans smooth. Planet Earth looks much better with some frame interpolation.

Lately Panasonic has been offering frame interpolation on not only their plasmas, but also their projectors. Ditto for Epson and Sanyo. Even my Kuro has a "smooth" setting, but it doesn't work very well at all. Samsung now offers MJC (motion judder canceller) on their high-end plasmas this year. The only problem is that it is not yet fully customizable like on the LED's. There is only the rudimentary 'standard' and 'smooth' presets. They need to get their act together and offer a fully customizable de-judder like on their LED's.

I'm really pleased that frame interpolation is finally starting to catch on. It really helps smooth out the blurry, jittery pans on video content, which looks like crap unless it is 60 fps.

Samsung's frame interpolation works great (bugs in the 2010 implementation not withstanding). You just have to know when to use it and when not to, and the television manufacturers need to get it through their thick skulls, that consumers need more CHOICE. If they would just get it through their thick skulls that some people love the soap effect, and some hate it, and some (like me) love it for some content,. and hate it for other content, and want a little smoothing for some content, and no smoothing for other, then everyone would be happy.

It's only when these idiot manufacturers take away the consumer's choice, and force us to accept smoothing to get better motion resolution, or make it too complicated for consumers to learn how to adjust it they want it, that LCD's get a bad rap for motion.
post #75 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Wouldn't it be easier (and less expensive) to just put blinds/drapes or shades on the windows that don't have them, and keep the Kuro?

1) The two windows that don't have any blinds are directly above the front door. They have that bumpy kind of glass that allows for privacy, but still allows some light to enter the room. How many people do you know that install curtains/blinds above their front door in the entryway to their home?

2) I simply do not want to have to close the curtains/blinds everytime it's daylight and I want to watch TV. That makes the place look dark and dreary. Who wants it dark and dreary in their living room all the time? I suppose if I lived in some ugly industrial area and had a horrible view out the window then I would want to shut everything out with some curtains. But I live in the Pacific Nothwest, and we have beautiful green trees in our neighborhood, mountains, birds and flowers and squirrels, and just the other day a bald-headed eagle swooped real low through our neighborhood, probably looking for a little happy meal. We have many wild rabbits that come up to the neighborhood from the forest nearby, and munch on the grass in people's lawns. I'm sure one of the eagles that hang out at the nearby lake spotted one and wanted some tasty bunny meat.

Those dark-coated Samsungs afford one the opportunity to have excellent deep blacks and great pop in a bright room. The processing on the Kuro is not as good as the Samsung either, which comes in handy when watching a lot of television programs. I also love Samsung's AMP since 2009 when they first made it customizable. It works well for a lot of the documentaries, nature shows, travel shows, and video content in general that I like to watch.

I don't watch much in the way of dramas or films. I've never seen Avatar. It doesn't interest me. Never seen The Dark Knight. It looks demented, and not uplifting for the soul. Most of the films that come out of Hollywood are pure trash, and are dark and demonic and demented. So I need something that works well as an HDTV with daylight, and not just a movie screen after dark.

The Kuro is better than the LED after dark, and of course has the lovely viewing angles, so I don't exactly want to get rid of it either.

I guess I am spoiled, and want the best of both worlds. I love the look of the 8500 during the bright daylight, and I love the look of the Kuro after the sun sets.

In the wintertime I give more deference to the Kuro, because it gets dark after 4 PM. The 8500 holds less appeal that time of year.
post #76 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

I disagree. Deep blacks are probably the single most important facet of PQ. What a number of plasma fanboys on AVS seem to be in a bit of denial about,

Doc... No ofense but you frequently show up in unrelated threads waxing nostalgic about the Samsung 8's with this same rhetoric about viewing in ambient light. Then when someone agrees but says they had other issues with their Samsung you have the answer for that as well. Is it so hard to accept that the Samsung is not the best for everyone even if it is brighter and blacker in ambient light and with adjustments made for motion?

Look at all the dialogue you've provided on this last page alone... The fanboy comment is a bit hypocritial.
post #77 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlh1005 View Post

Doc... No ofense but you frequently show up in unrelated threads waxing nostalgic about the Samsung 8's with this same rhetoric about viewing in ambient light. Then when someone agrees but says they had other issues with their Samsung you have the answer for that as well. Is it so hard to accept that the Samsung is not the best for everyone even if it is brighter and blacker in ambient light and with adjustments made for motion?

Look at all the dialogue you've provided on this last page alone... The fanboy comment is a bit hypocritial.

I don't think Doc means any harm. Maybe it's the way he perceives what he reads. Maybe he got out of the bed on the wrong side. Who knows?

For instance, I don't know why personal observations and comments like mine about my experience with Pioneer panels through the years got his juices going. As if one person can tell another person what they should be seeing rather than simply accepting it as one person's observation, based on whatever. He can disagree with me, but doing so in the manner he did completely ignores the context of the comment I made. I have seen Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, LG, etc, sets next to Pioneer panels through the years in various lighting and have generally been unimpressed with the obvious importance of black level superiority when on comparative display. I didn't say Pioneer isn't blacker. I said the overall PQ on some of the competition was better. For most folks that would be the end of story...except for Doc. As if every personal opinion needs to be stamped "may not be applicable to your experience."

To his great credit though, I know of few people who would do as he did and have in his house at one time several competitive sets with differing technologies, so he could compare them directly on his own, officially removing the normal limitation of in-store evaluation. This also served his need for finding something compatible with his specific viewing needs and preferences, which have been discussed and critiqued at great length on various threads.
post #78 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Not true! This is a myth. On fades to black, even the deepest 9G Kuros look a very dark gray--they do not look totally black. And a 500M could be possibly half your quoted figure. So if it doesn't make any difference below 0.001 ftL, then why do people who see a 500M/101FD next to other 9G Kuros say they can observe deeper blacks on the 50 in. monitors? (obviously in a dark room, on low APL scenes).

When I had my B8500 right next to my 500M in the dark and there was a fade to black the difference was quite striking. The 500M looked much lighter when I had an LED that totally shut-off as a reference right next to it. Likewise for scenes with white credits centered on a black background, and other content where there were large swaths of black concentrated in one area. The LED's could shut off in that portion of the screen, giving deeper blacks, albeit sometimes with added blooming.

If you set an OLED next to a Kuro in a dark room and watched both of them, you would NOT be saying that anything below 0.003 cd/m² doesn't make a difference. Human eyesight can discern to a mere fraction of that figure. Add several zeros.

I would say the 500M only gets a B+ when it comes to blacks in a dark room. Perhaps Pioneer's ECC would have gotten an A-.

An A or A+ grade is reserved for OLED.

Nobody really cares what a set looks like on a blank input or during credit screens except you I guess. Considering the fact that the B8500 and the Kuro arent available anymore, it just makes you come off as another one of those people who is debating why their set is the best. You seem to imply that your opinions matter more because you've had the chance to view a bunch of different panels side by side in your own house.

When the LG LE8500 was found to have incredibly low black levels like the B8500, except with much better viewing angles, you came out and attacked the credibility of the reviewer (Chad B) because it was described as being very close in quality to the B8500, all despite the fact that you've never actually had one in your house. You also spend a lot of time in the LCD forum telling the C8000 owners why your B8500 is better. You seem to be in as much denial about certain issues as any of the people you run around and call fanboys for seeing things differently than you. I would wager that most people who are willing to buy high end home theater equipment are also willing to dedicate a section of their house to it. So not everyone has to make sure its 8pm before they turn on their plasma set to get the best pq out of it. What I dont think you realize, probably since your room is much brighter than average, is that it takes an awful lot of direct light to wash out a plasma with a decent filter. I find that during the day time in my house, that my plasmas actually have blacker blacks than they do at night time.
post #79 of 209
Wow DocuMaker, give it a rest already. All you ever do is post huge walls of text ranting about the same thing. Not everyone's living room is the same as your's. My plasma, for instance, will look the best when there is a small amount of ambient light in the room, not in total darkness. And it's filter is nothing special either. I'd much rather have a slightly washed out Kuro than a 8500 LED with its poor viewing angles and poor motion handling No I don't like AMP. What are you going to do, tell me I'm wrong?

And lol at Pioneer ECC getting a A- in blacks. You do realize ECC is zero black right?
post #80 of 209
I understand that there's still room for improvement in AR filters and coatings, and that my Panasonic G2x is still not up to par with the 9G Kuros and a whack of the LED sets in this regard, but honestly in a lot of typical lighting situations I'm in when the set is at MLL I can't tell whether it's on or not except for the power LED. In practical terms, I'm not sure how much blacker would be useful without a blacker appearing filter.

There is always some ambient light in my viewing room, but it's down to as little as a single 15W incandescent in the 12'x18' space. In those conditions I *can* tell the difference between MLL and off, but that's the only time. If I have both 15W and 60W table lamps on - I can't tell. The room window is off to the side and facing northeast so there's usually no direct sunlight. If the sun is up - I can't tell the difference.

So, for me, a pre-rise G25 is as black as it needs to be. This statement, of course, assumes that the G25 is going to have some kind of objectionable MLL rise like all of all of the people with "insider" information claim. Once I add bias lighting I expect the situation to only improve.
post #81 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlh1005 View Post

Doc... No ofense but you frequently show up in unrelated threads waxing nostalgic about the Samsung 8's with this same rhetoric about viewing in ambient light.

Heh. You're right. I am on a crusade. But what's wrong with that? People all over AVS go on, and on, and on, about the Kuros in all sorts of unrelated threads as well. For good reason, because they are the nicest flat-panel displays available (within reason, 50+ inches) if you can keep the light off them. I believe the 8500 is the nicest display available (within reason, 50+ inches) for those who have viewing environments where they have a difficult time controlling the lighting. My dilemma is that I am not totally satisfied with the 8500 in a dark room, and I am not totally satisfied with the 500M in a bright room, and I have to deal with both conditions.

Quote:
Then when someone agrees but says they had other issues with their Samsung you have the answer for that as well.

What's so bad about that? If you are referring to the fellow who said he couldn't get past the motion issues, I was simply trying to help him out. I wasn't criticizing him or anything. Anyone who complains about weird motion problems on their Samsung LCD/LED would benefit from the understanding that the solution to their issues is to TURN THE JUDDER DOWN TO ZERO. Is that so hard? Now, if someone turns the blur up to 7 or 8, and the judder down to zero, and still has issues with the Samsung motion, then I can't help them. But everyone ought to try turning down the judder to zero in custom before criticizing the motion on their Samsung, saying it is all whacked out. There was a time when I didn't know how the 2009's worked and I thought the motion was whacked out on them myself. It was only after I was properly educated on how to tinker with the settings that I came to appreciate the customizable motion processing.

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Is it so hard to accept that the Samsung is not the best for everyone even if it is brighter and blacker in ambient light and with adjustments made for motion?

Of course it is. The viewing angles are extremely poor on the Samsung LED's, and that makes them unsuitable for many applications. Samsung's reliability and build quality is poor as well, so I can understand why people are wary of the brand. I have no respect for Samsung as a company, and so I can appreciate why someone like D-Nice says he will not have a Samsung display in his home. I can respect that. I have no stake in Samsung. I was kind of hoping that the LE8500 from Lotsa Glare (LG) would outdo the Samsung 8500, but alas, they have yet to learn how to make a decent glossy filter over there at Light Grays (LG).

There's always hope for Toshiba. They make nice dark glossy filters that preserve blacks in a bright room just as well as the Samsungs. They make the ugliest and fattest bezels I've ever seen though. And silly looking curvy stands. I think they spent a little more effort making the Cell Regza look a bit classier, however. I think the bezel is thinner and brushed metal rather than glossy black and double-wide. So I'm confident that the Cell will look great in a bright room. I expect it to still suffer from off-axis issues and I expect there will still be some blooming.

I have no problem if people take the time to learn how to set up their Samsung LED correctly, and it still doesn't work for them. But if they expect to just take it out of the box and use the default settings, and then complain on AVS about all the issues with Samsung LED's, well then that's partly their own fault. They should have read the owner's threads and asked questions before giving up on a display so easily.

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Look at all the dialogue you've provided on this last page alone... The fanboy comment is a bit hypocritial.

I am a fanboy of both the best plasma (500M) and the best LED (8500). One works better in the dark, and the other works better in the daylight. In my living room I have to deal with both viewing environments.

The reason I make comments about plasma fanboys is because many Kuro owners have nothing but negative things to say about the Samsung LED's and they can never concede that the Samsung could be better than their Kuro in a number of aspects. It's all or nothing with them. They insist that they never see phosphor lag on THEIR Kuro, but they always see motion blur even on the best LCD's. THEIR Kuro never buzzes at all. They have never witnessed even the slightest hint of image retention on THEIR Kuro. They have the most pristine viewing environment and no light ever washes out the picture on THEIR Kuro. Well that's really nice for them.

MY Kuro buzzes.
I see phosphor trails on MY Kuro.
I have seen image retention on MY Kuro as well, but I must admit it is not anything like the IR that you get with LG, Sammy or Panny plasmas. The Pioneer is simply the best in this regard.
I do not have the most pristine environment for MY Kuro, and yes it washes out (to a greater or lesser extent) with ANY light shining in the direction of the front of the screen.

No phosphor trails on the 8500...
No image retention on the 8500...
No buzzing problems on the 8500... (actually the LED's will hum a bit with the backlight at 8-10)
The 8500 would not wash out under any kind of bright light at all, but always looked fantastic no matter how bright the room got.
I had no problems with the motion on the 8500. I preferred it to the motion on the Kuro.
post #82 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

It's only when these idiot manufacturers take away the consumer's choice, and force us to accept smoothing to get better motion resolution, or make it too complicated for consumers to learn how to adjust it they want it, that LCD's get a bad rap for motion.

You're missing an important issue for LCDs, which is that they display a static panes of video while CRTs and Plasma produce frames with variable intensity across the entire screen. This is just like the sun's variable light, which is therefore what our eyes and brain are programmed to deal with, not the static panes of video produced by LCDs. So you'll always need some artificially interpolated frames to help the brain process the video to appear natural. The interpolation schemes implemented for plasmas are completely unnecessary, only offered so that they can match the "smoothing" hyped by the LCD manufacturers. While it is inevitible that a proper algorithm will be developed for this, possibly in concert with a variable intensity for individual LEDs, it isn't there yet.
post #83 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

I don't think Doc means any harm. Maybe it's the way he perceives what he reads. Maybe he got out of the bed on the wrong side. Who knows?

ClarkeBar, I think I perceived your words exactly as you spoke them. This is what you wrote:


I also routinely see Pio panels on display which look no better and even sometimes inferior to the competition in overall PQ, again uncalibrated. So while deep black level is extremely nice to have, in practice it is less important than many make it out to be.


This is speaking in the present tense. Now you want to change your tune a bit, when you say...


For instance, I don't know why personal observations and comments like mine about my experience with Pioneer panels through the years got his juices going. As if one person can tell another person what they should be seeing rather than simply accepting it as one person's observation, based on whatever. He can disagree with me, but doing so in the manner he did completely ignores the context of the comment I made. I have seen Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, LG, etc, sets next to Pioneer panels through the years in various lighting and have generally been unimpressed with the obvious importance of black level superiority when on comparative display. I didn't say Pioneer isn't blacker. I said the overall PQ on some of the competition was better. For most folks that would be the end of story...except for Doc. As if every personal opinion needs to be stamped "may not be applicable to your experience."



Notice how twice you added "through the years...". This was not how you came across in your previous post which I responded to. In that post you said "I routinely see..." which is present tense! You said nothing of "through the years..." in your original post.

The point I am trying to make ClarkeBar is very simple. Let's not try to make too much of this.

The filter on the 8 series Samsung is not all that much different than the filter on the Elites and monitors. I think the photo I snapped of both demonstrate this.

The Samsung plasmas do not appear any sharper than the Pioneer. They look about the same to me.

The colors on the high-end Samsung plasmas are very nice, but are they noticeably better than the Pioneer Elites and monitors? Not really. They are so close that most people would hardly be able to tell the difference.

Gamma, grayscale etc? Is the Samsung superior to the Pioneers in these areas? No. Do the Samsungs buzz less than the Pioneers??? Are they more reliable? Do they have better build quality? Do you want to talk about image retention? Horizontal line bleed? 24p? So just how exactly would the Samsungs be better than the Pioneer Kuros?

I'll tell you how. They have better processing and a little bit less noisy picture. That plus a swivel stand and a sleek thin profile is about it.

So I'm curious as to just which panels exactly you find that look better than the Kuros, and what was the setting in which you observed them?
post #84 of 209
Tense? It threw you off...it led you astray? My bad.

As to the rest I will leave it alone, having no desire to engage in endless back and forth about what I like and why, what I have seen and not seen, what light environment, calibration settings, etc. etc. from now until the end of time...or at least 1:00AM, whichever comes first. You like/liked Pioneer and presumably find it worth it for the price paid (don't know if you still have it). I am very happy for you. As I have said many times, if Pioneer had made a 6020 with a slimmer bezel design, I would likely be viewing one right now. It was the first plasma brand I ever coveted and along with Fujitsu represented the objet du desir for me. Alas, true love it proved not to be. I was unfaithful. But at least am very happy with the one I 'married'. That is all I need.

It's been awhile since our paths have crossed. If you don't mind my asking, which panel did you decide to go with? From some of the comments directed toward you it would appear it was the Sammy 8500 after all. Or did you keep the Pioneer as well? One for one environment and one for another? Last I read (shows how out of touch I am) that seemed to be the plan.
post #85 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony6225 View Post

Nobody really cares what a set looks like on a blank input or during credit screens except you I guess.

Speak for yourself! I have encountered other Kuro owners who lament that their Kuros cannot do a total fade to black. That was just one example. There is plenty of content out there with very low-APL scenes where an OLED would look visibly better than a 500M. There are some scenes which are so dim that you no longer get black bars that blend in with the bezel on the 500M. It is just the opposite. The black bars are not even black, but a dark gray, that blends in with the rest of the scene, which is also a dark gray. The black bars on a Kuro tend to blend in with the bezel when there is also something brighter on the screen. If the APL is not high enough, it is similar to looking at a full-black screen. Make no mistake, the Kuro blacks can certainly be improved upon.

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Considering the fact that the B8500 and the Kuro arent available anymore,

Nonsense. I could go pick up a 55 inch B8500 or a 101FD/141FD/151FD right down the street less than two miles away if I wanted one. I also could order an 8500 online. I don't have any sympathy for whiners in the U.S. who complain that they can't find a Kuro or an 8500. They can be had if you want one bad enough. Those people are just lazy and have some other reason why they are unable to track one down. Oh, and for those who complain that a 55 inch XBR8 cannot be had anymore? Baloney. I could order one in 30 seconds if I wanted to, and have it here by the end of the week.

Quote:


it just makes you come off as another one of those people who is debating why their set is the best. You seem to imply that your opinions matter more because you've had the chance to view a bunch of different panels side by side in your own house.

Matter more compared to what? No, they do not matter more than the opinions of other Kuro owners who regularly view their displays in the dark. No, they do not matter more than the opinions of others who have seen the Sony XEL-1 OLED like I have.

However, compared to someone like yourself who just speculates in his mind that there is no real difference to be seen below 0.001 ftL? Where is your evidence? Where is your proof? Have you ever seen the blacks on an OLED such as the Sony XEL-1 or the new LG? You are the one who is merely offering opinion. I am offering facts. The facts are simple. Go view a Sony OLED in the dark and then come back and tell us that there is no difference below 0.001 ftL. Go watch a Kuro which is below 0.001 ftL in the dark and tell us no one would notice if it got any darker. Go refute the scientific data out there which says that human eyesight can discern differences at a mere fraction of 0.001 ftL. When you present evidence to the contrary, we can talk about your opinions and how much they matter. Otherwise you are just conjuring up ideas in your head, not backed up with any evidence or even observation for that matter!

Quote:


When the LG LE8500 was found to have incredibly low black levels like the B8500, except with much better viewing angles, you came out and attacked the credibility of the reviewer (Chad B) because it was described as being very close in quality to the B8500, all despite the fact that you've never actually had one in your house.

I did not attack his credibility, but I did challenge the overall conclusion that he made, and felt it was a result of the hastiness with which he conducts his reviews. And come to find out, after others chimed in, he did what I consider to be the wise thing and modified his findings. That actually boosts his credibility, by showing that he is flexible enough to alter his opinion when new information is brought to his attention.

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You also spend a lot of time in the LCD forum telling the C8000 owners why your B8500 is better.

False! You obviously must have me mixed up with someone else. By the way, I don't even have my 8500 anymore, and I am not hounding C8000 LED owners at all. I challenge you to produce all these posts where I am constantly telling the C8000 owners that MY 8500 is better (don't own one any more).

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You seem to be in as much denial about certain issues as any of the people you run around and call fanboys for seeing things differently than you.

Examples? Provide examples, please.

Quote:


I would wager that most people who are willing to buy high end home theater equipment are also willing to dedicate a section of their house to it.

Good for them. I don't begrudge them anything. But Kuros and Sammy 8500's can be had for under $3k, so I don't know where you get the idea that people that can afford $2-3K for a display can also afford to build a dedicated HT room. Furthermore, not everyone wants to go into the HT room just to watch a TV program. Many people just want one TV that works well in their living room or family room.

Quote:


So not everyone has to make sure its 8pm before they turn on their plasma set to get the best pq out of it.

Never said that was the case. In fact, I could produce for you multiple posts of mine on AVS where I have said exactly as much. For people that have rooms where they can keep the lights away from their screen, or who don't mind darkening the room with curtains during the day, the Kuro would likely be ideally suited for them. But this is not the case for a large percentage of people.

Quote:


What I dont think you realize, probably since your room is much brighter than average, is that it takes an awful lot of direct light to wash out a plasma with a decent filter.

False! You are merely conjuring up more speculation in your mind, and have obviously not conducted any real tests, like I have. I have had three different plasma brands with the darkest filters available, and they all washed out quite easily with just a modest amount of light. If you don't believe me, take this challenge. Wait until your room is totally dark and then turn on your plasma and put on a black screen. Then take a lamp at a reasonable distance away, say 12-14 feet, and turn it on. You can move it off to the side a bit so the lamp is not directly reflecting on the screen. Did your blacks not just lighten up? Of course they did. I have tested this on my Kuro myself. Even one lamp anywhere in front of a plasma is enough to lighten up the blacks in a dark room. If your plasma does not visibly lighten up, you must have black levels so high that your plasma is gray to start out with. I challenge all the plasma owners (especially those with Kuros) to do this test. Unless everyone lies, if they conduct the test properly, I think they will agree. I am not alone by the way. Other Kuro owners have stated the same thing on AVS.

Why do you think that many people claimed that they never even noticed that their Panny had rising blacks until all the fuss was made on the forums? Because they obviously watch TV with the lights on or have windows that washout their plasma's blacks during the day. So they were never seeing the true capability of the Panasonic to begin with. Hence the rising blacks were not an issue for them. Others know that their blacks are not as good as before, but they willingly admit that they can never tell the difference during the day. Why is this? Becase too much light is hitting the front of their plasma screen, and they are not enjoying these deep blacks that plasmas are supposed to have in the first place! There are some people on AVS forum (I won't mention any names ) who own a Samsung and willingly admit that they use Cinema Smooth to eliminate 3:2 pulldown judder, with the full knowledge that the blacks are rising when they do this. Their justification? The elevated blacks they get when using Cinema Smooth are not really noticeable during the day when they watch a movie anyhow! Doh! Another case of plasma washout. I think you see why I make such a fuss about this.

It's a dirty little secret that many plasma owners are completely oblivious to, or are in denial about.

Quote:


I find that during the day time in my house, that my plasmas actually have blacker blacks than they do at night time.

Oh yeah? Why don't you do us a favor and post some pictures of your setup then? I have not been shy about posting pictures of my setup, to justify my contentions, so perhaps now you could do the same.
post #86 of 209
Jeez, give it a rest already Doc. One would think this is Documaker forum instead of AVS forum.
post #87 of 209
Thread Starter 
What are you guys doing to my thread!!!

Please calm down with the back and forth banter because it is sure to cause the mods to lock this thread

I simply intended for this to be an informational thread.....I never included any caveats concerning under which conditions the blacks were measured. They are simply objective measurements....

This is the avsforum.....it is a very knowledgeable community by design.....

It is no secret the B and C series Sammy LEDs can turn off their backlights and therefore provide a deceptively dark reading..

It is no secret a locally dimmed XBR8 or Sammy 8500 will only provide that super dark measurement while sitting in the sweet spot...

It is no secret a Pioneer 500m or any other 9G Kuro is NOT the last word in black level and can be very much improved upon....

It is no secret an OLED display will run rings around any Kuro in terms of black levels....ANYONE WITH EYES CAN TELL YOU THIS!!

Go debate that stuff in an opinion thread this is an

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post #88 of 209
Aside from DocuMaker's apparent caffeine addition, this is a great and useful thread Thanks for gathering up all this info.
post #89 of 209
I am not sure if you were aware of this, but HDTVTest revised their measurements for the UK Panasonic TX-P50VT20 that they had previously tested. Quoted from their site,
"Update 23 May 2010: When we first published this review, the initial black level measurements from our Klein Instruments K-10 meter read 0.006 cd/m2. Unfortunately, despite us using a brand new and freshly calibrated meter under the instructions provided by the manufacturer, it turns out that the unit was in need of an extra initialisation step in order to bring its measurements in line with the exacting demands of such a capable Plasma display. The corrected black level measurement is 0.009 cd/m2, meaning that, just like before, the Panasonic TX-P50VT20 produces an incredibly dark shade of black which is second only to the Pioneer KURO displays. Although the inaccuracy was not even half of a single nit of brightness, we apologise for this mistake which will not be repeated in the future. Only the Panasonic TX-P50VT20 review was affected, because no other recently tested display can produce such a deep shade of black."
Even though that translates to 0.002626772 fL and is very close to the original measurement, I just thought that you would want the most recent measurement for your post. Thank you.
post #90 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA_DaveB View Post

You're missing an important issue for LCDs, which is that they display a static panes of video while CRTs and Plasma produce frames with variable intensity across the entire screen. This is just like the sun's variable light, which is therefore what our eyes and brain are programmed to deal with, not the static panes of video produced by LCDs. So you'll always need some artificially interpolated frames to help the brain process the video to appear natural. The interpolation schemes implemented for plasmas are completely unnecessary, only offered so that they can match the "smoothing" hyped by the LCD manufacturers. While it is inevitible that a proper algorithm will be developed for this, possibly in concert with a variable intensity for individual LEDs, it isn't there yet.


That's where black frame insertion comes in handy. Many of the top LCD's/LED's are offering it now, including last year's B8500. It's called LED motion plus on the Samsung.

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong when you claim that frame interpolation is unnecessary for plasma, and that it's only for hype. I think you just have not experienced the benefits of good FI or you would have a different perspective.

Have you ever had the opportunity to watch your plasma and a good 240hz Samsung LED using dejudder side by side at the same time running the same content? In your home? Not at the store. Well I have, and others have too, and some of us recognize the value of good FI, and we want it on plasmas too. Slowly but surely we are getting our way, because they are finally starting to catch on with plasmas. And they are putting it on projectors too, so soon everyone will be using it.

I think you need to do more research, because it is absolutely useful--when implemented properly. You can deny it if you wish, but my eyes say otherwise.

24 fps is simply not enough frames to render motion smoothly. Who will deny it?

The Big Judder Problem and the Overhyping of 24p
http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

As I said before, watch Planet Earth: Mountains on your plasma and watch all those horribly blurry and jittery pans. Then watch it on a Sammy 240hz with the judder dialed up, and everything looks so much smoother and better. Until you compare them side by side, how would you know?

You don't have to believe me if you don't want to, but you should try it before you knock it.
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