Synergistic MIGs - Page 9  

I am pretty sure that Caelin is aware of that, but thanks anyway. It is merely an analogy.

Did you read the article Giz? How about the guy's credentials? Impressive, no?

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatur.../caelin_3.html

However, our real success has and continues to come not from reviews but word-of-mouth. Take Crest National Studios in Hollywood, one of the largest music and film industry studio chains in the United States. They're partnered with Philips International, one of the world's top providers of DVD Audio and CD replication. Crest has recently been appointed as the exclusive US SACD replication plant for Philips.


Crest National's new state-of-the-art 5.1 control playback studio consists of Halcro amplifiers, Meitner Labs multi-channel DACs and switching controls and Eggleston Works speakers.
Doug Sax of The Masterin Lab


Based on recommendations from top studio executives and mastering engineers, Crest requested a complete Shunyata Research power and signal cable evaluation system and ended up purchasing our Hydra power distribution center, Anaconda and Taipan power cables and the Constellation Series interconnect and speaker cables.


British Astoria Studio, owned by Pink Floyd's David Gilmour, is one of the most respected recording studios in the world. Astoria too uses a complete Shunyata Research power distribution and delivery system, as do Doug Sax and James Guthrie and recording studios in Japan and Germany.


Interesting stuff, Giz. You ever talk to these guys?

As I am rather close, (60 miles) and I frequently head into Burbank and Hollywood, I will be happy to pay a visit to look into this personally. Given the studios, post production houses, and pro sound and AV system providers I work with, you would think that I would have run across at least ONE company actually using these magic cables.

I wonder why NOT ONE company to date I have worked in the last 40+ years has not seen the error of their ways.

Yes, there is an example of moving target linked below. Notice he keeps changing.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18747595
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post18751929
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post18759849

Gizmologist,

You have to look for the room labeled MAGIC. They have to be there! Somewhere! Really.

What about the man behind the curtain? Oh sorry Joe, didn't mean to wreck your gig with the citizens of Audiophoolya.

The cord was indeed very close to a standard power cord of the very heavy-duty variety with similar (grey, in this case) outer sheath, but it was larger in diameter. This was a long time ago and I do not remember the brand; newer power cables have evolved, natch. I realized I didn't have an extra power cord on hand after I got there, and he had lost (misplaced, anyway) his amp's original cord, so I had borrowed it so we could compare a "regular" cord to his "supercord". I measured the supercord and a few regular cords while we were swapping things around to see if we could hear and/or measure any differences at the amp's output. He was not handling the cables so the testing was blind to him; it was my bad for not srestoring the cord. Perhaps his for never looking behind the stand to make sure I got it back, but...

What followed was simply bad timing and poor follow-up on my part. I had borrrowed the equipment from work and had to get it back that (Sunday) night for use the next morning. It got late, and I threw all the power cords and other cables into a box when we were done and did not notice I still had his supercord. The power cords went into a "pool" box at work -- I just dumped my box into the pool. It was a couple of weeks later I noticed his supercord on my 'scope and returned it to him, a bit embarrassed. As was he when he found out he and his friends had been finding differences where none existed, at least not due to the power cable.

As I said, in addition to decades as an EE putting me firmly into the "science" camp, this episode predisposed me against power cables making a difference. This was back in the 80's when cable hype was rampant and the technical claims were really outlandish (today's claims seem couched in more scientific terms; does not mean they are more or less outlandish, just that at least some effort went into writing them down). I have not tried swapping power cords in my present system, and have no plans to, as I think there are many other and more critical factors for sound quality, plus my general skepticism about the claims.

I am a little wary of shooting down what someone hears as I have been through cases when the ears did win in the end, but there has always been a scientific reason that matched known theory. I have been through far more cases when either (a) the ears were wrong when put to the test, or (b) we could easily measure something the ears could not hear (e.g. showing a graph with a large roll-off at HF for standard cable was once done by a manufacturer; the curve showed a big difference to their cable, when in fact the vertical axis was in 0.01 dB steps or something like that, and the horizontal in MHz or similar -- no way it mattered in the real world!) Claiming I can bias a cable to eliminate sub-uV noise traps and such may be true, but you'd be unlikely to ever hear something like that (e.g. a 16-bit DAC with 1 Vpp full-scale output has a 15 uV lsb step; we can resolve a bit below an lsb for steady-state signals, but less than 1/10th? I think not...)

That noise is on the output side of the supply, and it is very effectively filtered by techniques that have been around for ages. The major design issue is preventing any leakage into the low-level audio circuits; leakage back into the a.c. line is extremely small, and whatever makes it there will be filtered by distributed line parasitics (those RLC circuits hinted at previously) and then has to make it past the input filters and power supplies of any other components. It may happen, but I doubt I could measure it.

High-grade linear supplies (using full-wave or half-wave bridges) generate almost no noise, and local decoupling reduces it even further. Switching supplies generate broadband noise spikes, but again broadband filtering reduces that to very low levels (inaudible). The latter typically require extra shielding (a Faraday cage) to eliminate radiated noise. Neither type of supply has any direct connection back to the supply line; you'd have to look at leakage back through a transformer. Yeah it happens, but I have a lot of trouble believing whatever tiny amount makes it out will survive the supply chain to be audible anywhere else. We are talking orders of magnitude differences here.

In modern AVRs, the processor is undoubtedly the noisiest thing in the box, and ends up in its own little compartment with extensive decoupling. Fortunately, the high clock rates make it not terribly difficult to reduce the noise in the analog signals, which of course are on their own separate supply rails with their own local decoupling. Nevertheless, the greatest noise coupling happens within the box, not to the power line coming in.

This is not an argument anyone can win, as those who claim to hear a difference will always say my ears or measurements are not good enough, or claim there's some mechanism science has not yet explained.

Don,

Thanks. The after-market cables nowadays are usually do not look like stock cords. It must have been a while back.

Hmmm...I'll bet your scope worked a LOT better...

Yeah, the display was much sharper and more focused, rising edges were a little faster, but I think the color balance was shifted a bit more toward green... That is, of course, how I figured out it had a new power cord. - Don

I have always found Caelin's posts and interviews very informative. He has great credentials and he certainly shares much info in interviews and in threads. He makes a lot of sense and what do you know, there is some science in there as well. It is interesting how no one has challenged his interview line by line despite the "invitation" to do so.

He has some interesting posts at cable asylum.

Giz I am looking forward to your visit to the studio, but if you don't like what you see there, fight the urge and report back to us anyway.

Here is one example: "thousands of people that use our power cords started out as sceptics" I HOPE he meant skeptics.

Unfortunately his diatribe is rife with repetitive statements that are either completely nondescript in their factual support and are just sales BS. The rest is simply non factual sales BS.

In sales, if you repeat a completely non supported statement enough, eventually you will find people who will begin to accept it as proven fact.
This is the basis for most all snake oil pushers.

He talks about being involved in the pro world of computers and dealing with networks. Anyone here have a DSL hub or switch on your system? Amazing, isn't it? Handling all the bidirectional megabytes of several computers simultaneously without error and guess what. Powered by a $2.50 wallwart transformer and a single TO-220 12 volt regulator and about 5 electrolytic caps.

He also states that a component using his PCs is at the beginning of the AC power circuit from the generator to the transformer to your home. He is 100% dead wrong. Anything you connect to the AC power is dead center in the MIDDLE of the circuit from the generator to the substation, to the transformer, then your home and all the way back.

There are numerous factual errors and omissions but they have been pointed out by myself and others many times.

Needless to say I do not consider this individual in any way technically or factually trustworthy.

BTW when I contact the folks at Crest I promise to relay all the information regardless of which way it goes.

What are Caelin Gabriel's credentials?

10th degree BSer and hawker of fine audiophoolery?

Ah I see. I won't write a term paper for you, so you decide that years of experience in the field with real consumer-level gear is rendered moot.

Internet authoritarians FTMFL.

Here's a summary. Most devices interfere with each other. Mainly digital. Since typically the only common denominator between components on the same circuit are the power cords, do the math.

Why I need to debate something you probably already know is just an example of you trying to push buttons and waste time.


Looks pretty consistent. Not flattering to your position perhaps, but consistent nonetheless.

Try and be as nice to them as you have been to others in here.

C,mon guys. Read the damn articles posted, it doesn't hurt (too much).

That post appears to be the same as the ad copy Tess linked to. I did find this part interesting:




So where are his tests? By his own statement, it seems quite silly to discuss the "theories of operation", when he hasn't been able to show that there is any audible difference. If he could, then I assume the debate would be over.

If you connect a power cord to an electrical device and the little lights come on, it works!!!!!

Have I not thanked you and Joe and a couple others ad nauseum for the comic relief? It is not easy to make folks laugh but y'all are trying real hard.

Seriously Tess, it should be obvious that I DO appreciate when someone makes a statement presented as fact and can actually back it it up. Unfortunately in the audiophile world there is a dearth of factual information, zero repeatable test results under controlled circumstances and just a massive amount of colorful assurances about the product or theory they are pushing.

There does not seem to be this attack on known circuit design concepts used in the AVR etc components. Various folks will claim to use "audiophile grade" capacitors etc BUT I have not seen anyone talking about changing semiconductors or ICs (integrated circuits, not interconnect cables)en masse. They do not seem concerned with the copper trace thickness and width, the PCB substrate material or coatings, the component layout or on-board circuit paths.

There really ARE quality differences in potentiometers and that is why I frequently change out stock parts for ALPS or Bournes.

If I scope a power supply and the DC rails are flat with no ripple, the voltages are within tolerance and there is no overt heat issue, I am a happy camper and the PS passes muster.

The specs of these components are available and evidently trusted so why then are these audiophile types unable to apply the same level of engineering trust to the wires? Simple answer. Wires are simple and EE training in actual circuit theory, design, and construction are NOT the forte of the average snake oil salesman.

They DO have a wonderful lexicon of colorful adjectives and can create nice word pictures of what you should expect from your investment of 1,000.00 for a 6 ft piece of wire. Once you are suckered into the sale, there is usually no way you will admit to yourself or anyone else that your resultant experience was not exactly the earth shattering climax you were primed for.

I have no personal issue with someone spending their own money on these silly wires and other accessories. Where I get really annoyed and willing to go head to head, is when they publish statements presented as technical fact and cannot EVER provide any actual independent lab results using industry accepted procedures and controls.

I have intervened many times in consumer electronics stores from Rad Shack to CC to BB and others when the customer is being lied to. Sales promotions are one thing. Lying is quite another. I once handed my biz card to a sales guy at BB when we were picking up a flat screen for my folks after he kept up the sales BS about cables, etc. I then told his manager that some retraining is in order. When a customer who obviously knows what he needs/wants and tells the salesman to basically go away, then that is what they should do. Also to avoid PROVING the salesman is not just blowing smoke, some actual factual basic electronic training might be a good idea.

If you want to lose a sale to me, just keep talking techtrash. I have had many folks thank me profusely for saving them money and helping them get what they actually needed, not what the salesman was told to push.

Actually, it hurts an awful lot, in fact.
What are his credentials? BS artist?

Absolutely the same silly trash that is always published.

ZERO Factual information. here is a hint: Facts about the physical properties and operation of manufactured items and devices should be available sans the anecdotal claptrap.

I would suggest you read the links posted pertaining to the subject.

Is there an echo in here?


Could you be more vague? Give me three examples of issues you take with the Gabriel's position. Should be easy, the way you roll off adjectives.

Breathe deeply.......Begin!

Since you are calling me out, care to give me an example of myself doing this?




Wrong. Now you are going to ask me for examples why you are wrong. I will give you people doing these things, you may call them, email them, visit them....




My passive pre uses ALPS. I bought it that way.




Sale? As in singular? I have bought many, I have actual experience with the topic at hand.





This big box store experience doesn't point to ignorance on the part of the participants in this thread. I would suggest that it is you that is lacking experience with the theme of this thread. Name the exotic cables you have tried, Gizmologist.

Gizmologist,

I don't quite understand your claim of 'suckered into the sale.' Do you mean when some bad saleperson lures you to the part of the store where they keep all those nasty $1000.00 cables, keeps telling of the wonderful things they will do for your system, and uses rosy words to create illusions of great sound in your head? Where in the do you get this from, The Happy Hour Cartoon Saturday Show? Real world - a person visits an audio store, selects a cable or cord that he would like to evaluate on his own system. He spends many hours listening, yes 'listening' to the system. He then decides if he likes the resulting sound. If not, he returns the cable to the audio store and calls it a day.

Anyway, any word from Crest?

I am wrapping up a major construction project here righ now. I DO need to head into Burbank then West Hollywood this week to pick up some parts and (oh no...) CABLE. About 30,000ft of Canare L4E6S and a few hundred Neutrik XLR connectors. Sorry nothing from Shunyata or JPS. I like to buy components with quality specs based in the physics of THIS world.

I will call ahead to see when I can schedule a FTF meeting with some of the resident engineers at Crest. I have a buddy that works at Paramount as as that is fairly close by, I might have lunch with him at the Formosa on Santa Monica Blvd. and then we can discuss their cabling as well.

A perfect sales trick. You definitely have been through "vendor training"

The more time anyone spends with any purchase the more they will like that purchase...its on the 2nd page of "How to be a great salesman" hand book.
The goal is too just get the sale and get the product in the customers hands....nothing is more powerful!!!

Penngray,

You always seem to avoid the part that says,'...then he returns the cables to the store...' I've auditioned a few dozen assorted power cables, speaker cables, and interconnects, almost all of which went back to the store. I decided which I considered the best sounding, consistently best sounding. I then waited for great deals on Audiogon, most of which were obtained new in the box, or got them by factory order through company reps who cut out the middleman and sliced off over half the retail price. How can that be? How can a person be duped by some cables and not by others? Maybe they sound different, consistently? Perhaps there are those who are taken by local RS shops and the like (even though they all sell @#$), but I think most who are in this hobby at this level know exactly what they are looking for and know how to get good deals. You seem to refer to fifteen year olds who are dazzled by all the bright lights, a big smile, and some crappy subwoofer turned up to ridiculous levels somewhere in the store (just to give it that 'disco' feel...oh wow, doesn't that sound cool..I think I'll buy something here, like, eh.).

Looking forward to the visit to the studios. CABLE! OMG. Let's see...30,000 feet at, say, $300.00 per foot...hmm...should only cost about 9 mil. I'd throw in the taxes and make it an even 10.

Don't you wish you were selling cable at 300.00/ft? Fortunately for the professional word sanity still reigns supreme (most of the time) so all I am paying is a paltry .37 /ft. Imagine that and the gold flashed connectors? 2.34 for the cable mount females and 1.78 for the males. Geez I sure hope all the audio magic stays in these.

If you spend so much time doing subjective listening test. Why not upgrade your audio science skills and do a little measuring to atleast validate what you might be hearing??

It doesnt cost a lot to do accurate measurements to know what cables do what to your in room response.

Im not refering to 15 year olds. I actually have many references to Doctors/Lawyers that have million dollar homes making subjective and incorrect audio decisions. Lucky they have me living amongst them to show them how silly subjective listening can be.