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Synergistic MIGs - Page 3  

post #61 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Its funny you should post that. You sell cables!!! You know in my business (warehouse automation). I have a mountain of data to back up any claims I present to a client. No one is buying a 20 million dollar picking system without that data.

I have to ask in your business what data do you bring to the table? Bottom line is here is that your history has proven you to be only a cable sales guy and therefore you are extremely bias. Furthermore you do not indicate to all that read your post that you sell cables. Obviously you have something to hide!!

If you have some audio science behind you Im willing to think you are more then that. Until you actually add to your tag line that you sell cables I will consider you someone that is less then honest about audio.

Once again, you are wrong. Now, go out and get some networked cables, and try them. Then you can speak from experience instead of just speculating.

FWIW, I am a production team leader in the automotive field. I used to be a quality assurance technician, next week I will be moving to a robotic technician position. I am also an ISO 9001/14001 Auditor. Nothing to hide here.
post #62 of 537
My bad, we have lots of posts saying you sell cables. So you are not in the cable business?

I do apologize for misleading anyone!

I have done many tests over the years. Im not new at this, I did this back 20 years ago with many engineers. Im bored and I want to do it again with my current system only so I can once again prove guys like you wrong. Its a great joy for me to continue to prove guys like you wrong
post #63 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

My bad, we have lots of posts saying you sell cables. So you are not in the cable business?

I do apologize for misleading anyone!

I have done many tests over the years. Im not new at this, I did this back 20 years ago with many engineers. Im bored and I want to do it again with my current system only so I can once again prove guys like you wrong. Its a great joy for me to continue to prove guys like you wrong

I am not in, nor have I ever stated I am in the cable business.

We are off topic, but I do look forward to your cable testing, whatever the outcome may be.
post #64 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

FWIW, I am a production team leader in the automotive field. I used to be a quality assurance technician, next week I will be moving to a robotic technician position. I am also an ISO 9001/14001 Auditor. Nothing to hide here.

Anything else?
post #65 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Look, my internet stalker found me!

You wish.
post #66 of 537
State your point.
post #67 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Good thing we do not have subjective audiophiles protecting us

Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Anything else?

Yes, I served my country for 3 years. What else would you like to know?

Oh! I like turtles.
post #68 of 537
Originally Posted by tesseract67
FWIW, I am a production team leader in the automotive field. I used to be a quality assurance technician, next week I will be moving to a robotic technician position.

So you put the lug nuts on and next week you will be greasing the robotic spray painter.
I can rest easy now.

BTW Tess do you actually KNOW why some electronic modules are shock mounted? I will tell you. The components that are through-hole style and/or have a certain mass are prone to straining the component leads if the device subjected to extreme G forces. We use DOT spec G force detectors on our gear so we can track if something was dropped or tipped past a certain permissible angle.

There are no active G forces exerted on a static device such as an amplifier setting on a shelf. In a SS device with no motorized moving parts, what possible need is there for a shock mount? Electronics in a tank, yes. In a living room, not so much.
post #69 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

So you put the lug nuts on and next week you will be greasing the robotic spray painter.
I can rest easy now.

Are you sure this is what I do? My work involves quite a bit more than you imagine, and touches a quite a few lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

There are no active G forces exerted on a static device such as an amplifier setting on a shelf. In a SS device with no motorized moving parts, what possible need is there for a shock mount? Electronics in a tank, yes. In a living room, not so much.

The isolation mounts I spoke of are to minimize the electronics exposure to micro-vibration.
post #70 of 537
"The isolation mounts I spoke of are to minimize the electronics exposure to micro-vibration."

WTH is "micro vibration" supposed to damage?

More total unadulterated BS. Tess go look at a corporate server, your own computer, an MRI machine, X-ray, robotic anything, AV production gear, etc. This is critical function gear and isolation mounts are not used as they need a rock solid base for accuracy and safety.

Who dreams up this all the audiophool claptrap? Whoever it is should cut waaaay back on the shrooms.
post #71 of 537
What is this unequivocal blind test I hear G-Rex talking about?
post #72 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What is this unequivocal blind test I hear G-Rex talking about?

He initially called it blind test but now he calls it blind study after partially realizing what he didn't do.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post18640779

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

I recently did a blind study of high end sub cables from
post #73 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw30 View Post

G-Rex, I have seen you post this question a dozen times on this forum. Not ONE skeptic has responded to this. They talk the talk while you walk the walk. They don't do any testing because they KNOW high end cables can improve audio/video. They have a personal grudge against the high end cable industry because they are run by fellow engineers who have done well in their careers.

And on the other hand if cables make such a difference why is there not one cable manufacturer using these so obvious listening/viewing test results to sell more cable? I have posted this question many times on this forum and amazingly nobody can ever answer it. I wonder why. Wouldnt cable companies sell a ton more cable if they just showed how thier cables sounded so much better than brand X or lamp cord? Gee...Seems pretty obvious what the reason is.

Talk about talking the talk.

This has nothing to do with grudges against anyone or any kind of envy. Its pretty comical that you would even go there. This has to do with posters who do not know what they are doing and wasting everyones time and money.
post #74 of 537
There is a big difference between being bitter and using common sense based on sound concepts of physics. We just don't like to see gullible hornswoggled into believing total pseudo tech BS. Things like media types, preamps, EQs, amps speakers, room treatments etc affect the sound in all its minutiae.

Not once in 30 years since the idea of cable BS was hatched and foisted off on a totally novice and technically ignorant public has anyone demonstrated the differences they claim between appropriate sized and constructed cables.

We are still waiting for ol JS to stop hiding and actually post a pic of his 36" reel of Alumiloy and its actual specifications.

Don't worry Joe, we won't hold our breath.

BTW kids, loop resistance in an IC or speaker cable in a home scenario of very short cable runs is a totally meaningless concern. Once you step into the pro world THEN it has some merit in cable length as we may have a couple thousand feet of IC cables and several hundred of speaker cables.

We also run sync signals and delay lines for fills that are time dependent and higher resistance in smaller gauge cable does cause some issues.

Tess you continually wax poetic about "networks" on cables. Please tell us what they do and technically how they function. Otherwise you are just parroting sales hype(BS) from another ripoff company.
post #75 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Blind test vs blind study? Do you have anything better to do than play with words. it is STILL a blind test where the results were very enlightening. You guys really do need to enjoy the hobby instead of being so bitter about everything. It's not that your cup is half empty, it's that it has been bone dry for so long that you have forgotten how to drink. Who is the next manufacturer you people want to take on, does that make you all feel a sense of power, purpose and importance that you lack in the real world? Now get back to criticizing the jobs of fellow members, the Dalai Lamas speak...

And you need to learn more about the hobby. Considering you have been here since 2002 its a shame you act this way especially towards some very well respected and extremely knowledgable posters.

Also maybe some posters shouldnt come on here spouting off nonsense and then trying to make it seem more credible by listing all of their accomplishments in life. Nobody really cares and its not that impressive anyway.
post #76 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What is this unequivocal blind test I hear G-Rex talking about?

Who said it was unequivocal? Though I said it was very meaningful and enlightening.
post #77 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

And you need to learn more about the hobby. Considering you have been here since 2002 its a shame you act this way especially towards some very well respected and extremely knowledgable posters.

Also maybe some posters shouldnt come on here spouting off nonsense and then trying to make it seem more credible by listing all of their accomplishments in life. Nobody really cares and its not that impressive anyway.

My words may have been bit too strong, but I was not focusing on any particular member even though it may have appeared that way. "Well respected members" seems a bit ironic. If you read my posts over the last month or so, I have stated the problem is the lack of respect fellow board members have for each other with differing views. If there were no differing views then wouldn't the board be much less interesting? However, the consistent lack of respect on the forums is unnecessary and there is no need to demean fellow members (personally or otherwise) to get a point across and solidify an argument. You are on the other side of the fence with repect to cables, so you are focusing on our rebuttals rather than the comments that preceded them.
post #78 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Who said it was unequivocal? Though I said it was very meaningful and enlightening.

OK. So where can I read about the meaningful and enlightening blind test?
post #79 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Yes, I served my country for 3 years. What else would you like to know?

Oh! I like turtles.

I like turtles too

My comment about protecting was just a joking response. Im not as serious as you seem to think, the discussion seem to lose their sense of humor sometimes.

I still apologize for stating wrongly you being in the cable business. I mixed you up with the AZ sound member (whatever his name is). Sorry for that mix up.

I also will say thank you for your service!!!


Now lets get back to disagreeing over the all the products that make up < 1% of audio SQ differences
post #80 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Thanks, I thought it was closer to 10 to 1. Im surprised and disappointed. Do you really think it accounts for 25% of your improved SQ?

My room is large and the front speaker are about 10' or so apart, sides in speaker wire length 50', rears 57'. Rear sub 10 meters away, side subs, 15 meters... Higher end speaker wire and interconnects can add up quickly. I did include all xlrs and other cables in the mix, (such as Analysis Plus Solocrystal 7 interconnects for the Pioneer 09 analog stage.) The ratio was calculated quickly from memory. I took another look at the #s. It could be a bit higher, maybe closer to a 4 to 1 ratio or so.

If you add my entire system cost then the ratio changes to 6 or 7 to 1 or so.

These are retail prices, and wire, cables and power cords can be purchased for fairly good discounts. This did not make it into the calculations.

As far as the % of improvement? I hate the thought of putting a number on it because I will get trashed for it. Let's just say enough in the audio and visual areas to be happy with my purchases. The # is less than 25% and higher than 10%... I couldn't resist.
post #81 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

You are on the other side of the fence with repect to cables, so you are focusing on our rebuttals rather than the comments that preceded them.

I am on the science, common sense, reality, and proven side. You are on the magic fairy dust, unproven, snake oil, side. Nothing wrong with it except if you want to be taken seriously here. There are plenty of AV sites that do not have the word science in them.

I will ask again. If these cables make such a difference or were so noticeable why dont the manufactures of these cables show this in their marketing? Why havent they done blind tests to show how this cable affected this or that, as you claim? They would certainly sell a lot more cable. Wouldnt they?


Nobody can ever answer this question.

Also what about the cable inside the speaker? Do these magical cables suddenly transform the internals of the speaker into something else? The signal still has to go though whatever speaker wire that the manufacturer uses inside the speaker? If that material is not the same as your magical speakerwire then how can this same magical signal make it to the crossover or speaker itself?

Nobody can ever answer this question.

Nor can anyone ever show a legit ABX test of cable comparisons. Why is that?

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.
post #82 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

My words may have been bit too strong, but I was not focusing on any particular member even though it may have appeared that way. "Well respected members" seems a bit ironic. If you read my posts over the last month or so, I have stated the problem is the lack of respect fellow board members have for each other with differing views. If there were no differing views then wouldn't the board be much less interesting? However, the consistent lack of respect on the forums is unnecessary and there is no need to demean fellow members (personally or otherwise) to get a point across and solidify an argument. You are on the other side of the fence with repect to cables, so you are focusing on our rebuttals rather than the comments that preceded them.

Respect is something you need to earn.

May 7 is when you started posting on 2 Channel Audio section with this childish reply, then you followed up with this reply singling out Gizmologist. At that point other members started to challenge you on your additional posts which are full of unsubstantiated claims. Then when questions repeated, you ran. Now you are repeating that same nonsense all over again here and probably will run away again when the questions get serious.
Prove me wrong, G-Rex.
post #83 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

If these cables make such a difference or were so noticeable why dont the manufactures of these cables show this in their marketing? Why havent they done blind tests to show how this cable affected this or that, as you claim? ... Nobody can ever answer this question.

LOL, the answer is a very simple! As Ted Denney explains HERE, even though science can catalog DNA and land a man on the moon, it is somehow unable to measure the affect of simple wires and his magic prayer bowls:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Denney at Stereophile Forum View Post

Since my first measurements I have determined the effect of the Acoustic ART System cannot be proved by measurements taken with the REW application. Furthermore I have determined the REW program cannot “measure” any differences between power cords in a system, the difference between interconnects in a system, the difference between speaker cables in a system, the difference between digital components in a system, the difference between racks used to isolate components in a system and on.

You'd think these people would take a lesson and realize that maybe it's their hearing that varies, rather than the sound coming from the loudspeaker changing after they replaced a power cord. But no. If you think about it, this is quite an arrogant position! It's like someone believing they can wave their hand over someone's stomach and divine a hidden tumor better than an X-Ray or colonoscopy.

--Ethan
post #84 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

... The forum mod, not sure how to handle it, canned the entire room acoustic section of their forum until he can discuss it with Atkinson and decide what to do....

The room acoustic section has been restored.

Stephen Mejias wrote today: "I've talked it over with John, and the Room Acoustics forum has been restored."
post #85 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

My room is large and the front speaker are about 10' or so apart, sides in speaker wire length 50', rears 57'. Rear sub 10 meters away, side subs, 15 meters... Higher end speaker wire and interconnects can add up quickly. I did include all xlrs and other cables in the mix, (such as Analysis Plus Solocrystal 7 interconnects for the Pioneer 09 analog stage.) The ratio was calculated quickly from memory. I took another look at the #s. It could be a bit higher, maybe closer to a 4 to 1 ratio or so.

If you add my entire system cost then the ratio changes to 6 or 7 to 1 or so.

These are retail prices, and wire, cables and power cords can be purchased for fairly good discounts. This did not make it into the calculations.

As far as the % of improvement? I hate the thought of putting a number on it because I will get trashed for it. Let's just say enough in the audio and visual areas to be happy with my purchases. The # is less than 25% and higher than 10%... I couldn't resist.

thanks for the details....I still want measurements
post #86 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Respect is something you need to earn.

May 7 is when you started posting on 2 Channel Audio section with this childish reply, then you followed up with this reply singling out Gizmologist. At that point other members started to challenge you on your additional posts which are full of unsubstantiated claims. Then when questions repeated, you ran. Now you are repeating that same nonsense all over again here and probably will run away again when the questions get serious.
Prove me wrong, G-Rex.

That first link was far from a childish post, it was some light hearted humor that BOTH sides of the fence should appreciate, and I'm sure Gizmo did not get offended by the way he responded. Too bad you don't have a very good sense of humor. As far as the second link, I don't see anything insulting or in appropriate about it. You are merely flaw hunting...good luck! Running away or just getting a bit bored from the monotony of the subject matter? Call it what you will if it makes you feel better. Childish is posting links for selfish purposes ie. to rally the troops...I will not take the bait.
post #87 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

but I was not focusing on any particular member

But that's what you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

That first link was far from a childish post, it was some light hearted humor that BOTH sides of the fence should appreciate, and I'm sure Gizmo did not get offended by the way he responded. Too bad you don't have a very good sense of humor. As far as the second link, I don't see anything insulting or in appropriate about it. You are merely flaw hunting...good luck! Running away or just getting a bit bored from the monotony of the subject matter? Call it what you will if it makes you feel better. Childish is posting links for selfish purposes ie. to rally the troops...

Denial won't prove anything. You've been posting unsubstantiated claims for some time on this forum. There's no way that would just stop all of a sudden. You are no machine. There's no reason to treat your reply #86 any differently than the rest of your nonsense.
post #88 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

I am on the science, common sense, reality, and proven side. You are on the magic fairy dust, unproven, snake oil, side. Nothing wrong with it except if you want to be taken seriously here. There are plenty of AV sites that do not have the word science in them.

I will ask again. If these cables make such a difference or were so noticeable why dont the manufactures of these cables show this in their marketing? Why havent they done blind tests to show how this cable affected this or that, as you claim? They would certainly sell a lot more cable. Wouldnt they?


Nobody can ever answer this question.

Also what about the cable inside the speaker? Do these magical cables suddenly transform the internals of the speaker into something else? The signal still has to go though whatever speaker wire that the manufacturer uses inside the speaker? If that material is not the same as your magical speakerwire then how can this same magical signal make it to the crossover or speaker itself?

Nobody can ever answer this question.

Nor can anyone ever show a legit ABX test of cable comparisons. Why is that?

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.

I would love to see more blind/double blind tests set up very carefully by cable manufacturers. I agree if cables do make a difference in high resolution systems why not demonstrate it with DB tests... I can not think of better advertising. To not conduct these tests gives you guys plenty of ammo on the skeptical side of the fence. One way or the other I would be interested in the results.

I am also looking forward to reading about Gizmo's db tests and Penngrays measuring regardless how things turn out. This is all part of the hobby. I do enjoy reading about both sides of the argument, but I don't care for both sides demeaning each other every chance they get. It was Gizmo's post that "said stop wasting $" that hit home with me (and I feel his intentions were sincere) that caused me to do the xlr sub cable blind test.

As far as high end hook up speaker wire goes, EgglestonWorks uses Analysis plus I believe and before that I think it was Transparent, but I could be wrong. JPS has their hook up wire inside certain speakers. You can ask Joe which ones if he elects to disclose. I'm sure Wilson and other high end speaker manufacturers use high end internal wire.
post #89 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

But that's what you do.

Denial won't prove anything. You've been posting unsubstantiated claims for some time on this forum. There's no way that would just stop all of a sudden. You are no machine. There's no reason to treat your reply #86 any differently than the rest of your nonsense.

"Unsubstantiated claims" I am speaking "nonsense"... at least I have done blind tests and have done many auditions and comparisons of interconnects, power cords, power conditioners, in a room and components that justify such comparisons. I could write a VERY long list of products I have had in my home. Would you care to post a list of the high end products that you have bothered to listen to which makes you such an expert? Or are you a piggyback expert that has merely jumped on the bandwagon and has NO first hand experience with anything? My claims may not be objectively documented, (don't have the equipment) but I have done more than many of you. Your venom is showing in your posts, tell me what is your real source of resentment to me?... human nature...so predictable.
post #90 of 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis_Stanton View Post

...his shows how all sorts of bias comes into play among audiophiles of all persuasions. Those who consider themselves subjectivists, as well as those who consider themselves "scientific" objectivists. Everything is subjective!

Trying to parse your 3-post rant is quite a challenge, but your understanding of science indicates your educational system failed you. Your magical thinking is typical of this era, and quite unsettling.

This thread does not ask you to take on the role of moderator. Presumably if there are violations, an actual mod will intervene.
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