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WHICH ONE - Canon HF S21 - Sony HDR-CX550V - Panasonic HDC-TM700 - Page 2

post #31 of 176
5/22/10 at 4:20pm
Anyone can download native progressive 60p files and see that what you post is simply not true. As for reviews, yeah, reviews can be biased, but all of them? Give me a break.
This is internet, anyone can come and say, 'i had all three cams, and this cam is crap'. Hence, there is a rule of majority. Sorry, but by that rule your post is BS.
How do we know that you even done that comparison? May be you're sales rep yourself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajay View Post

>>You ignored what I said before when I asked if you went through the myriad of possible reasons you saw what you saw.<<

No I did not ignore this. I stated that when I found out I could not do with this camera what I had wanted to do and COULD do with either the Canon or the Sony (the editing) I gave up on it.

You are taking this way too personal Ken. Let me say once more...the OP asked for an opinon. I am SURE he knew he could go to any one of a number of review sites and gotten reviews of these camcorders. But he chose to come here and ask for opinions. He did NOT ask for people here to tell him what professional (or otherwise) reviews have said, he asked for user's opinions...and I gave him mine!

Based on what I have seen, the Panasonic is a wonderful camera (and I stated it in my original review) but with faults (and ALL of them have faults...again read my original review).

Perhaps I should have said that "I did not find the Panasonic as sharp, but oh wait there must have been something I did wrong" or something to that effect. Would that have made you happier??

You're taking this way too personally. I am happy that you are happy with this camera. But the one I tried just did not look as sharp as the Canon, period. And believe me, when I first noticed this my heart dropped. I SO wanted this one to be the winner.

Should I have gotten another and done another comparison? Well maybe if I HAD been writing a pro review it would have made sense to do so. But since I was choosing for myself, and again since the editing just was not working out for me, it wasn't worth the time and effort.

Again I am sorry that my findings found fault with your beloved camera. But a guy just came on here and asked for opinions ... OPINIONS FROM USERS OF THE THINGS! I gave him mine. That's all. Why don't you spend more time giving HIM YOUR opinions of what YOU have found with it rather than finding issue with what I say about it? Again, I DO think it would be helpful if you can get a hold of the Canon and Sony and compare them side by side...who knows, maybe you might find out something about any or all of them.

Lets give it a rest now Ken, please. For what it's worth, the OP PMed me stating that he was looking for something he could use to create DVDs from! So all this about me 'harping' on the editing issue HAS become an issue hasn't it.
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post #32 of 176
5/22/10 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenhoek27 View Post

Help me choose - Canon HF S21 Sony HDR-CX550V Panasonic HDC-TM700

Not into editing much (at all really) - looking for good quality video for kids sports, family birthdays (low/varying degrees of light), good audio capture without additional microphone, good battery /recording time (in highest resolution settings), and the main reason I'm here - your opinion on ease of use - I am tech friendly - my wife not so much.

Thanks for your opinion

It's not even close, the Panasonic HDC-TM700 is in a class by itself.

TM700:


Sony $3,499 HDR-AX2000 :
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HDR-AX200.../dp/B0031RGKZ8

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post #33 of 176
5/22/10 at 4:46pm
Thread Starter 
I appreciate and respect everyone's opinion (as each are entitled to their own)... I value the time you are all taking to talk about your experiences with these cameras.

Please remember - just like ice cream - everyone has a flavor that suites them best. All I am doing is asking what works for you - and then trying to see what might be best for me.

I have no experience editing - probably won't for awhile - but would like to learn in the future.

My main use for the camera will be for filming (and archiving - I am guessing ripping to DVD) my kids, my wife's upcoming graduation, play time outdoors, play time indoors, birthdays, holidays, etc. If i have the chance to shoot some cars at a meet or at a race that's bonus.

Quality of image, ease of use for newbie (extra easy required for my beautiful wife), good image stabilization, good low and bright light recording, and good audio are on my wish list.

These three cameras seemed to be the front runners so that's why I asked for more info.

I hope you all continue to provide information to assist me with this purchase in a kind and thought provoking manner (emphasis on kind). You can bash a product (doesn't bother me)but please don't bash a person - as that person(s) may indeed have had a bad time with a camera, it doesn't make them a bad person. It just makes their opinion their own - which is what I am asking for - your opinion and expereinces with these cameras.

And if you can recommend a camera for the usage I have described above - bonus - if not - I still appreciate everyone's opinion of these cameras as it applied to their own experience and needs.

Thanks again.
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post #34 of 176
5/22/10 at 4:55pm
I use my TM700 for shooting video of the kids with zero editing and I use my TM700 w/ remote to view the native 1080p60 video on my four 1080p HDTVs. I also use my PS3 to view 1080p60 video burned on DVD-Rs or on SDHC cards. I also have many private 1080p60 videos uploaded on youtube of the kids for family and friends to view. It is also super easy to use and your wife will love shooting videos with it.
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post #35 of 176
5/22/10 at 5:05pm
Not sure if this one is worth a response but ...
"i had all three cams, and this cam is crap.' Now that's funny, especially since I mentioned that I thought the Panasonic was a wonderful camera (with faults).
Anyone can download native progressive 60p files? Did I ever say that I (or you, or anyone else) couldn't??? I said the Panasonic 60p files could not be written to blu-ray without conversion. You think they can? Without conversion? Lets see...do it and we'll talk, ok? And while you're at it, get yourself a copy of Toast if you use a Mac. You'll need it to convert the files.
There is a rule of majority...ok, so if the majority says this is a great camera, that automatically makes me a liar and my post BS just because I saw different?

Wow, I am glad I don't live in your world!

BTW, I am done guys. It's amazing to me that I can be attacked merely by giving an opinion of a product. I admitted right from the start that I felt there COULD have been something wrong with the particular sample camera I tried, but still...it's basically implied in this quote that I am either a liar or something less than honest. WOW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lekom View Post

Anyone can download native progressive 60p files and see that what you post is simply not true. As for reviews, yeah, reviews can be biased, but all of them? Give me a break.
This is internet, anyone can come and say, 'i had all three cams, and this cam is crap'. Hence, there is a rule of majority. Sorry, but by that rule your post is BS.
How do we know that you even done that comparison? May be you're sales rep yourself.
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post #36 of 176
5/22/10 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenhoek27 View Post

You can bash a product (doesn't bother me)but please don't bash a person - as that person(s) may indeed have had a bad time with a camera, it doesn't make them a bad person. .


That person just sent me pm, where he says how my 'tone and accusations' are disgusting, and asked me to get lost... Very funny.

May be this weird guy should reread his statements towards Ken before compaining...
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post #37 of 176
5/22/10 at 6:11pm
Thread Starter 
I had no idea people were so passionate about their camcorders - guess I learn something new everyday.

anyways - back to topic at hand...

Is it safe to assume that the process would be roughly the same on all three to create copies of the footage onto a DVD? (would like to archive footage of the family - no i don't have a Blue-Ray player... )
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post #38 of 176
5/22/10 at 7:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenhoek27 View Post

I had no idea people were so passionate about their camcorders - guess I learn something new everyday.

anyways - back to topic at hand...

Is it safe to assume that the process would be roughly the same on all three to create copies of the footage onto a DVD? (would like to archive footage of the family - no i don't have a Blue-Ray player... )

The Sony model has some kind of "direct to DVD" feature for their companion burner (no PC needed). Their software also has DVD-creation features if you go to a PC first. You might read their Owner's Thread for more details.
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post #39 of 176
5/22/10 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajay View Post

Again I am sorry that my findings found fault with your beloved camera. But a guy just came on here and asked for opinions ... OPINIONS FROM USERS OF THE THINGS! I gave him mine. That's all. Why don't you spend more time giving HIM YOUR opinions of what YOU have found with it rather than finding issue with what I say about it? Again, I DO think it would be helpful if you can get a hold of the Canon and Sony and compare them side by side...who knows, maybe you might find out something about any or all of them.

Jay, it actually appears it is you that is taking this much too personally and your sarcasm shows that. I keep asking you why your findings were so radically different from everyone elses and you still haven't come up with a reason. You keep saying you 'simply gave up' on it. To me that doesn't indicate a thorough examination of the potential pitfalls that could have caused you to see lesser sharpness on the 700. Don't you think it's important for someone to comment on another poster's opinion that is worlds apart from all others? Don't you think that keeps things in perspective? Wouldn't you think that a person's opinion that is so diametrically opposed to both professional and consumer findings, is one that just might be suspect?

If you commented about ergonomic issues that are very personal, I could understand, everyone is built differently. But something that is truly measurable and non-subjective like resolution, is not an area that we should see such a radical deviation in opinions.

I also don't think it's a foregone conclusion that everyone comes here knowing what professional sites have done what reviews. It's not even reasonable to assume a poster who is not very familiar with video has any idea whatsoever that professional reviews exist on a given camcorder. So I think it's perfectly fine that someone gives the OP a link to a review. If he knows about the reviews then he can ignore it, but if he doesn't, it could give him a wealth of information simply not available here. Why would you want to hide that from someone? You were the one who was implying some kind of 'conspiracy' from professional reviewers, so it really does appear it's you that is protecting his turf or his 'beloved camcorder'.

Oh, and it's no problem making DVDs from the 700's video. Just thought you'd like to know.
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post #40 of 176
5/22/10 at 9:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lekom View Post

That person just sent me pm, where he says how my 'tone and accusations' are disgusting, and asked me to get lost... Very funny.

May be this weird guy should reread his statements towards Ken before compaining...

The thing I found amusing is that he first implied I was employed by Panasonic, then after another poster pointed out that if he had read my posts over the years, he would see that I was not loyal to ANY brand. So then I became a 'salesman', and finally I was then 'protecting my beloved camera' and on and on. Quite the contrary, it seems that it was he who was quite defensive.

If I read such unanimous opinions on ANY piece of equipment and I found my personal findings to be 180 from everyone elses, I could guarantee you I would be doing quite a bit of research in to where I was going wrong (because obviously something in my chain was not quite right). I would think that just from the standpoint of 'intellectual curiosity' you would want to know why your observation was so radically different from all others. But hey, that's me.
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post #41 of 176
5/23/10 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenhoek27 View Post

I had no idea people were so passionate about their camcorders - guess I learn something new everyday.

anyways - back to topic at hand...

Is it safe to assume that the process would be roughly the same on all three to create copies of the footage onto a DVD? (would like to archive footage of the family - no i don't have a Blue-Ray player... )

You can burn straight from the TM700 to this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...VD_Burner.html
No PC required...

BTW, I'd like to add my voice to those singing the praises of the TM700, it's fantastic!
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post #42 of 176
5/23/10 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenhoek27 View Post

I had no idea people were so passionate about their camcorders - guess I learn something new everyday.

anyways - back to topic at hand...

Is it safe to assume that the process would be roughly the same on all three to create copies of the footage onto a DVD? (would like to archive footage of the family - no i don't have a Blue-Ray player... )

I would recommend reading comments attached to the reviews on camcorderinfo.com. Many of those are written by people who have purchased the camcorders. Amazon and Best Buy will also have some owner-written comments. Professional reviews are interesting and valuable but often don't reflect the interests or experiences of owners as time passes. It's over time that the little flaws or cool things about each camcorder surface.
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post #43 of 176
5/23/10 at 12:43pm
Thread Starter 
Great feedback/suggestions/comments/opinions! I'm gonna try and check out some feedback at forums/stores/other websites - as well as check out the cameras in some local big box stores.

Appreciate any and all future feedback/suggestions/comments/opinions guys.

Thanks
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post #44 of 176
5/23/10 at 2:40pm
"These three cameras seemed to be the front runners so that's why I asked for more info."

I am going to make your life harder - in fact, the JVC HM1 clearly is better than the Sony CX550 and the Canon S21 (see the camcorderinfo review of the CX500 in which all FOUR are compared, but that is not the only reason I am saying this, there is plenty of other evidence of that on other sites). It rivals the TM700. Those are the two you should consider if you want the best video.

Read the HM1 threads on this site also. My own view was that the HM1 gave you comparable video as the TM700 without needing to depart from AVCHD standards, and that was my choice to purchase, but that is becasue of my own uses of these cameras.

Do not judge a camcorder based on the number of threads on this site or based on the passion of the users, look at the capbilities and the qualities of the video based on objective tests, and how all of this is related to your needs.
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post #45 of 176
5/23/10 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Clark View Post

You can burn straight from the TM700 to this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...VD_Burner.html
No PC required...

BTW, I'd like to add my voice to those singing the praises of the TM700, it's fantastic!

Bob, nice find, but I'm a bit unclear if it enables recording of HD on regular DVD-R?
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post #46 of 176
5/23/10 at 5:14pm
Thread Starter 
^ I agree with the confusion... the link above points to a stand alone burner for panasonics that works with camcorders and cameras in AVCHD format - but I thought I read that when shooting the 700 in 1080/60 it is in some other format... so would the burner still work in this instance to rip DVDs if the 700 captures footage at its highest setting?
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post #47 of 176
5/24/10 at 8:56am
I played quite extensively with all three cams before purchasing the Panasonic TM700

Here's what I thought were the major benifits of each cam.

TM700 - Sharpest image, perfect motion for action shots, best OIS for long zoom work, great still image quality as frame captures (each frame is a 1920x1080 perfect jpeg image 60 times per second)

CX550 - Low light performance, best OIS for walking around

HFS21 - Most natural color, good still image quality

The perfect motion of the TM700 is what sold it for me. I have really disliked AVCHD video at 60i since it's introduction due to the stuttering effect. I held off buying an HD cam for a few years due to this.

Both the Sony and Canon still exhibit the stuttering when panning or with fast action. The sharpness, color (though over saturated), and OIS turned out to be even bigger bonus than I had expected on the TM700. Add that each frame of video is a very acceptible background image for my 24" computer monitor is the icing on the cake.

Cheers,
Pete
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post #48 of 176
5/24/10 at 10:49am
What "stutterting" effect of 60i are you talking about? Stuttering is usually the result of using too high a shutter speed at a low framerate (like 24p).

Even the most ardent fans of 60p do not claim that 60i "stutters" (60i doesn't "blur" or "pixelate" either, as other posters have tried to claim).

Please tell us what you mean, and why that should happen as a consequence of interlacing.
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post #49 of 176
5/24/10 at 10:51pm
Thread Starter 
Well I was able to check out the Sony and Canon at a local big box store but can't seem to find any local shops that have the Panasonic or JVC in stock...
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post #50 of 176
5/25/10 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by c3hammer View Post

Both the Sony and Canon still exhibit the stuttering when panning or with fast action. The sharpness, color (though over saturated), and OIS turned out to be even bigger bonus than I had expected on the TM700. Add that each frame of video is a very acceptible background image for my 24" computer monitor is the icing on the cake.

Cheers,
Pete

I don't find the color to be over-saturated, but this does tend to be a personal thing. But Pete, I'm sure you're aware, but you can always have the camera default to a saturation level a bit less than what it would normally capture. Just bring it down 1 or 2 notches in the camera recording settings menu.
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post #51 of 176
5/25/10 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

What "stutterting" effect of 60i are you talking about? Stuttering is usually the result of using too high a shutter speed at a low framerate (like 24p).

Even the most ardent fans of 60p do not claim that 60i "stutters" (60i doesn't "blur" or "pixelate" either, as other posters have tried to claim).

Please tell us what you mean, and why that should happen as a consequence of interlacing.

The stuttering that Pete is referring to (I assume) is on pans. Any interlaced camera can show this as a kind of 'stuttering' for lack of a better description. In fact, it was one of the major arguments that networks like ABC & ESPN used in deciding to go with 720p. They felt that for rapidly moving scenes, such as can be typical in sports, a progressive format would show less of these interlaced artifacts.
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post #52 of 176
5/25/10 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Even the most ardent fans of 60p do not claim that 60i "stutters" (60i doesn't "blur" or "pixelate" either, as other posters have tried to claim).

I believe everyone who watches motion via 60i AVCHD claim it stutters, blurs and pixelates when panning and particularly when panning and action are present simultaneously.

I may be strange, but I find that my brain turns off many of the frames and gives a slide show feel to any motion. Obviously the individual fields are present, but what the minds eye see's is something very different.

I may be weird, but I don't know anyone who likes watching pans and action with any 60i AVCHD cam and why they aren't used for much of anything but home video.

People love the color and image on their HDTV, but would actually rather see photographs to the herky jerky feel of video from this format until now.

The combination of incredible OIS and 60p video is a game changer IMHO and the reason I bought the TM700 after years of sitting on the sidelines waiting for something like it to come along.

Cheers,
Pete
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post #53 of 176
5/25/10 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by c3hammer View Post

I believe everyone who watches motion via 60i AVCHD claim it stutters, blurs and pixelates when panning and particularly when panning and action are present simultaneously.

I may be strange, but I find that my brain turns off many of the frames and gives a slide show feel to any motion. Obviously the individual fields are present, but what the minds eye see's is something very different.

I may be weird, but I don't know anyone who likes watching pans and action with any 60i AVCHD cam and why they aren't used for much of anything but home video.

People love the color and image on their HDTV, but would actually rather see photographs to the herky jerky feel of video from this format until now.

The combination of incredible OIS and 60p video is a game changer IMHO and the reason I bought the TM700 after years of sitting on the sidelines waiting for something like it to come along.

Cheers,
Pete

You are 100% not speaking for me in these things you're saying. I am very satisfied with the 60i footage from my camcorder. What study or survey are you using to draw your conclusions, or are they really entirely personal and being extrapolated to the whole population without basis?

Of course, I guess tens of millions of consumers could just be really unhappy and not expressing it.
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post #54 of 176
5/25/10 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

It's not even close, the Panasonic HDC-TM700 is in a class by itself.

TM700:


Sony $3,499 HDR-AX2000 :
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HDR-AX200.../dp/B0031RGKZ8


Sorry... I just don't believe these screen shots at all.
Not to say that they're made-up or something of that nature, but the screen capture program that captured the Sony shot clearly has interlace handling issues because the sony ax2000 does better than that.
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post #55 of 176
5/25/10 at 3:30pm
"I believe everyone who watches motion via 60i AVCHD claim it stutters, blurs and pixelates when panning and particularly when panning and action are present simultaneously."

You are confused by other confusion. Yes, a lot of people do complain about pixlezation, stuttering and blurring, and they sometiimes mistakenly blame it on 60i. They are wrong. They do not understand video. I do not claim to be an expert either, but:

Pixelization occures when the bitrate is too low.

Blurring occurs for many reasons, one is a slow shutter.

Stuttering occurs when the shutter is too fast for the frame rate or the palyer cannot keep up with the bitrate.

Your confusion is understandable, given how many people make this mistake, and how many posts there are touting the TM700 and often, not always, claiming it is due to it being progressive, when in fact it could be because of other factors, including a high bitrate, good optics, etc.

None of the three problems you mention are directly related to interlaced video. Bad de-interlacing can result in things like mice teeth, tearing etc. But that is the fault of the software/hardware player.
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post #56 of 176
5/25/10 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Sorry... I just don't believe these screen shots at all.
Not to say that they're made-up or something of that nature, but the screen capture program that captured the Sony shot clearly has interlace handling issues because the sony ax2000 does better than that.

Well since the AX2000 shoots @60i, I'm not surprised it would show some artifacts. The pictures don't lie. Advocates of the 700's 60p aren't just whistling in the dark.
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post #57 of 176
5/25/10 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Stuttering occurs when the shutter is too fast for the frame rate or the palyer cannot keep up with the bitrate.

The problems of interlaced video and motion handling is well known...no mystery. Progressive video shows motion with more detail and smoothness, there is simply no denying that. Speak with any professional network engineer.

Again, it's the reason that ESPN, ABC and others chose 720p. I still personally prefer the detail offered by 1080i as far as broadcast material is concerned, but having 1920X1080 60p is the best of both worlds. I think eventually we'll see that in broadcast as more efficient compression methods are adopted. Right now it requires too much bandwidth.
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post #58 of 176
5/25/10 at 5:04pm
Thread Starter 
Does anyone know of any big box places or major retailers in LA that carry the Panasonic or JVC in stock? I have seen the Canon and the Sony in person and would like to check out the other two before making a decision soon.

Thank you all once again for your informative and lively discussions - much appreciated.
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post #59 of 176
5/25/10 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

You are confused by other confusion.

Not confused by other confusion, but by another perception perhaps. After all, what each of us sees is nothing more than our perception of what is actually there.

Quote:


Pixelization occures when the bitrate is too low.

Which is exactly what happens when fast motion is attempted to be captured and compressed with 60i AVCHD.

Quote:


Blurring occurs for many reasons, one is a slow shutter.

And the result of noise reduction when fast motion occurs and the bit rate is not high enough under 60i AVCHD compression schemes.

Quote:


Stuttering occurs when the shutter is too fast for the frame rate or the player cannot keep up with the bitrate.

Or the bit rate is too low for the amount of movement in the frame.

Quote:


None of the three problems you mention are directly related to interlaced video. Bad de-interlacing can result in things like mice teeth, tearing etc. But that is the fault of the software/hardware player.

No, none of those issues are directly related interlaced video, just 60i AVCHD video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Gull View Post

I am very satisfied with the 60i footage from my camcorder.

Never said anyone wasn't happy with their 60i footage. Just saying that everyone, including yourself, are not happy with fast motion in their 60i AVCHD footage

Cheers,
Pete
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post #60 of 176
5/25/10 at 5:36pm
You are still confounding too low bitrate with interlacing. Too low bitrate with any compresssion scheme, with or without interlacing, gives pixelization. I would just expect smoother motion with progressive versus interlaced, for fast motion. Interlacing has nothing to do with pixelization or blurring or stuttering when properly decoded, as on any modern HDTV. What is not at issue is what you see (no one is denying you have seen stuttering), it is the cause of what you see.

You can have the sharpest video and the most accurate color, and really smooth motion, without 60p. You will certainly, everything else the same, have smoother motion that might be visible in some situations with progressive versus interlaced (same fps). That's it. No one is argiung that 60i is better than 60p; it's just whether going to 60p now gives added enough value. For some it does, for others it does not.

And the TM700 60i alternative, at a lower bitrate than the competitors, has been reviewed to be not as good as other 60i camcorders. Maybe it's the lower bitrate, maybe it's something else. It's too bad - because if the TM700 had the best 60i in-spec video plus the 60p option it would be a much easier choice for all, including me.
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