or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › HDTV › HDTV Recorders › Channel Master CM-7000PAL HD DVR - AKA Dish DTVPal
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Channel Master CM-7000PAL HD DVR - AKA Dish DTVPal - Page 18

post #511 of 705
Well, ROVI says that they will continue to provide TVGOS to internet-connected TV's. I don't have one, but might get one in the future if my hdtv dies. I guess in that case, you could check the TVGOS on the TV, then program in your choices on the CM7000. It's a lot more trouble that way, though. Right now I'm going to just bask in the TVGOS until it goes away frown.gif
post #512 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Some stations use generic PSIP as a way to pretend they comply with the rules, so every program is named "DTV Program" or something equally pointless in the guide.
There actually might be no title at all; it depends on what the tuner fills in for those cases.  "Regular schedule" or "No title" are a couple other popular favorites for that.

Most of those same stations don't even mark actual program times divisions either, but just show a schedule divided into chunks of equal length (one, two, three, or six hours in my observations) regardless of how long the programs run.
post #513 of 705
I think "DTV Program" is supplied by the station, as the tuners I use will show no program name at all if the station has no PSIP.
post #514 of 705
Well TVGOS is gone in the Nashville Tn and Huntsville Al areas. Psip data only, so far not too big a deal for recording. Basically can only record what I can see in an 8 hour period. A few stations show an odd day and a half listing.

The only annoyance I have is that in the guide you have to access each main channel for the data to populate the episode information with the tvgos it was just there.

Too bad we don't have another guide alternative with this unit. Mine is still going strong.

Still I have almost talked myself into getting one of the cm-7400
post #515 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by smintn View Post

The only annoyance I have is that in the guide you have to access each main channel for the data to populate the episode information.

The Charlotte area hasn't lost TVGOS (yet) but having to rely on PSIP looms on the horizon. Your reference to accessing the "main channel" to populate PSIP brings a question to mind.

I receive one independent station where the main channel (WHKY 14.1) is home shopping and sub-channel 14.2 is RetroTV. I currently have 14.1 locked (doesn't appear in my CM-7000PAL's guide) but I do watch 14.2 (RetroTV).

Will I not receive PSIP program quide for 14.2 if I leave 14.1 locked?
post #516 of 705
Second tuner (if it will not busy) should poll all your locked station for obtain PSIP data.
post #517 of 705
mad.gif

I'm glad I found this thread. It confirms what I've been saying about no guie info on the CM7000PAL.

I have had 3 contacts with techs from Channel Master. Nice guys, but CM is playing ditry pool now, as far as I'm concerned.

I'll try to make this as short as I can (good luck with that! LOL )

In my case, it appears ROVI is no longer supplying info. Yet, if that's the case, it happened on EXACTLY the day we went from
Daylight Savings Time (DST) to normal time.

The problems I see in the box are the following:

If you reset everything to factory, you're brought to a screen where it asks you if DST is recognized here (some wording like that).

You say no (because it's not DST right now). But the box flips it back to YES.

So I wonder... when it's trying to pull the info, is that mismatch for DST causing a problem?

Like someone else mentioned, the guide will just say "no info available" for all channels (except, interestingly enough, the LAST channel that was on when you powered it down).

Then, if you flip through all the channels manually, the guide populates with some info for a few short hours.

Put it back in standby again and after some hours, the info is no longer there.

Ok fine. So ROVI may be gone. They tech walked me through what is SUPPOSED to stop the box from trying to get info from ROVI and only from the digital signal from each channel. Which, is fine for me.

BUT… and this is a big BUT… it doesn’t work.. exactly….

Again, the guide will have info, for a few hours, the when in standby (or on even as I’ve tested), the guide again goes to NO INFO. All, but the last channel accessed…. proving my theory that the box’s tuner(s) is/are not auto scanning all the channels when it’s in standby mode… which, as the tech agreed, IT SHOULD BE DOING! But it’s not and clearly, lots of other people are reporting the same issue.

Also interesting, is the tech today, told me, that they’ve had “meetings” on this very subject to figure out what to do.

AND THIS IS WHY I’M POSTING THIS EVERYWHERE I CAN

He said, that CM’s decision is TO DO NOTHING!

They are actually going with the concept that since ROVI is going down, they have no control and therefore, don’t need to honor the warranties.

I suggested that this isn’t true. That in fact, there are consumer laws that say differently. If THEIR product isn’t working because of a 3rd party problem, that’s NOT the consumer’s problem, THAT’S CM’S PROBLEM!!!

I also said, that they can fix this by simply reworking the firmware to force the tuner (just 1 should be enough) to auto scan constantly, when in standby mode.

He agreed that this would probably fix the problem to a point that would satisfy most, but that CM, as of now, isn’t considering this.

THAT JUST SUCKS, because CM is leaving a huge number of loyal customers out in the cold after paying around $400 for a box that only ½ works.

CM needs to be pushed by all their customers to get a firmware update out there that addresses this issue.

I also let him know, that I intend to push this to the consumer departments of the Gov, both in the USA and Canada. Because they cannot provide a warranty then just say, OOPS, NOT OUR PROBLEM. No way!!!

So I hope others will join in and get this word out to everyone…
DON’T BUY CHANNEL MASTER PRODUCTS if they are going to do this to their customers.

I even suggested that to appease owners of the 7000, that they offer to take it back and provide them the new model for a lower price, like $100-$150 (since we’ve all paid, already around $400).

He said that wouldn’t happen.

CHANNEL MASTER, YOU USED TO BE A GREAT COMPANY, BUT NOT, IN MY OPINION, YOU HAVE SUKEN TO THE DEPTHS OF A COMPANY WHO NO LONGER CARES ABOUT YOUR CUSTOMERS. SHAME ON YOU!
post #518 of 705
Don't you just wish people would read a little before they spam a thread with old news.

That probably wouldn't stop them anyway.
post #519 of 705
Having the CM-7000 scan channels for PSIP guide data during standby mode wouldn't make sense, anyway. The whole point of a standby mode is to use only enough power to make the unit respond to the remote control when the user wants to turn it on. The tuner is off in standby mode, so it can't scan anything.
post #520 of 705
Actually, not true. The hard drive is constnatly running and the unit would normally be polling the guie info.

CM confirmed that.

Also confirmed that the box is in fact supposed to be doing just that... it needs to scan chans to pick up the info.

It's just not doing so... old news or not.. My whole point here is that CM is doing NOTHING about it... warranty or not!
Edited by Blondboy47 - 1/3/13 at 12:55pm
post #521 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Having the CM-7000 scan channels for PSIP guide data during standby mode wouldn't make sense, anyway. The whole point of a standby mode is to use only enough power to make the unit respond to the remote control when the user wants to turn it on. The tuner is off in standby mode, so it can't scan anything.
you have your _personal_ point of view to standby mode; but the DVR's FW written not by you and it works differently. I don't have source code to show your mistakes, but I can easy get a log of commands/data to/from tuners during standby time. Wanna bet what you'll see there ?
And I'm not a talker, I'm doing actual repairs of the CM/DTVpal DVRS.
post #522 of 705
MMMEEEEOOOWWWW LOL
post #523 of 705
Thank you for the correction, although your tone is unwarranted. It would seem that the CM-7000's "standby" mode is misnamed, seeing as it apparently doesn't do anything and is the same as the unit being "on".

At any rate, there is no more reason to hope for CM to release an update for an obsolete product than there is for Sony to update the DHG units or for Dish to update the DTVPal in the wake of TVGoS's demise. CM already addressed your concerns with the 7000's failings by releasing the 7400, which is the current model. It has its own proprietary gudie option that would be able to replace TVGoS and PSIP. CM won't release new firmware for a discontinued product and is under no obligation to do so, either.
post #524 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

At any rate, there is no more reason to hope for CM to release an update for an obsolete product than there is for Sony to update the DHG units or for Dish to update the DTVPal in the wake of TVGoS's demise. CM already addressed your concerns with the 7000's failings by releasing the 7400, which is the current model. It has its own proprietary gudie option that would be able to replace TVGoS and PSIP. CM won't release new firmware for a discontinued product and is under no obligation to do so, either.

@blondboy
This is what I meant by old news. Although it fizzled in this thread, the outcry over TVGOS demise has been going strong in the Pal DVR (same as CM-7000) and DHG threads since Rovi's announcement up to the present. If you visit the Pal DVR thread you will find a lot more current discussion on what people are doing to cope with the loss of TVGOS.
post #525 of 705

IMO, people who bought a new CM7000Pal less than a year ago, direct from CM, have plenty more reason to complain than the owners of products that were discontinued 6 years ago.  CM still sells the Pal new online, although not all the time.  Not that it will do anything to complain, other than waste more of their own time.

post #526 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Thank you for the correction, although your tone is unwarranted. It would seem that the CM-7000's "standby" mode is misnamed, seeing as it apparently doesn't do anything and is the same as the unit being "on".
At any rate, there is no more reason to hope for CM to release an update for an obsolete product than there is for Sony to update the DHG units or for Dish to update the DTVPal in the wake of TVGoS's demise. CM already addressed your concerns with the 7000's failings by releasing the 7400, which is the current model. It has its own proprietary gudie option that would be able to replace TVGoS and PSIP. CM won't release new firmware for a discontinued product and is under no obligation to do so, either.
Sorry, if my response was harsh; I did try to stay on technical side and miss the friendly tone.
post #527 of 705
Thanks, Kelson. I was in fact not aware, until just the last few days about TVGOS/ROVI. Where I was trying to go, was in hopes, to get people to complain to Channel Master on mass, or to their local Gov. affiliate (warranty law obligations) of their lack luster dismissal of their warranty obligations. Not our problem if a 3rd party service goes belly up. In fact, if pushed, the law is on our side about this issue.

I do realize it's old news... now... I just didn't know how old it was since here, mine worked perfectly until just this last daylight savings time change (Nov2012). And it wasn't spam at all. On the contrary, it was a yell-out in hopes that lots of ppl would bitch at CM and let them know that as a group, we'll go to the Gov to enforce warranty law as well as to saturate the internet with their poor attitude/service. After all, if we do not, they will keep doing this to others. It does take the masses to make things change.

I wish that I would have known this was not new news. I just never read about it until now, because I had no reason to.. until now.

TalkingRat: are you saying that this product was discontinued 6 years ago? Or did I read that wrong? If that's the case, then this supports moreso, my point that CM has an obligation under consumer laws to support and backup their warranty. It may in fact take many of us to make a big stink about this, ESPECIALLY if this product was discontinued that long ago but that they still sell it. As of today, I still see it on their site for sale.


I must admit, that it's times like this, when I ALMOST miss my programming background. LOL biggrin.gif if I was more inclined and up-to-date, I would have loved to take on the challenge to rewrite the unit's program to fix these issues. Sadly, I no longer am a programmer... after too many years of coding and logic design, I just don't have it in me! LOL

Mind you, my 2 areas were business software design, then went into gaming design... don't even ask! ROFL tongue.gif

Anyway, back to the 7000. In faxct, IF the firmware was updated to not bother with TVGOS (ROVI) and have the tuner(s) constantly scan channels and pull PSIP data only, this would resolve this issue. Sure, we wouldn't get 2 weeks guide... but for many of us, I'm sure a couple of days would be fine. Better than NONE! smile.gif

NOISE NEEDS TO BE MADE TOWARDS CM! updating the firmware to do that is not THAT difficult.
post #528 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondboy47 View Post

[...]
In faxct, IF the firmware was updated to not bother with TVGOS (ROVI) and have the tuner(s) constantly scan channels and pull PSIP data only, this would resolve this issue. Sure, we wouldn't get 2 weeks guide... but for many of us, I'm sure a couple of days would be fine. Better than NONE! smile.gif
[...]

I have a DTVPal which is supposed to be identical to the CM7000. I have been running mine on PSIP data only for the last month and a half. Mine apparently does scan when it is in standby. I have 24 hours of guide data on most of my channels every time I turn it on. I'm not sure why yours doesn't behave the same. I disabled TVGOS by doing a Factory Default, and then not setting the zip code when asked to (leave it at 00000). Without the correct zipcode, TVGOS will not take over. You should try doing what I did, and see if it works better.

You misunderstood the DST setting. It is not asking you whether it is daylight savings time or not. It is asking whether Daylight Savings time is observed where you live. If you leave it set to 'Yes', then the CM7000 will move the clock forward an hour the first weekend of March, and move it back an hour the first weekend of November.

Mark
post #529 of 705
Thanks Mark. I didn't even consider NOT putting the zip code. I'm going to try that.

As for DST, I wondered if in fact it was only asking if it is observed or not and not that it's DST right now. Figures though. The CM tech couldn't answer that.

It's good news though, because that rules out one theory that a misalignment of actual time would be causing it.

Your 00000 idea makes total sense.

I'll do that and let you know the results. If that works, then I'll buy you a beer or 5, LOL tongue.gif
post #530 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondboy47 View Post

TalkingRat: are you saying that this product was discontinued 6 years ago? Or did I read that wrong? If that's the case, then this supports moreso, my point that CM has an obligation under consumer laws to support and backup their warranty. It may in fact take many of us to make a big stink about this, ESPECIALLY if this product was discontinued that long ago but that they still sell it. As of today, I still see it on their site for sale.

 

No, Pals are newer, IIRC oldest December 2008.  I think those who bought the Pal then (and those who paid $30 in a few limited Sears stores when Sears dumped their inventory) are the ones saying we got our money's worth, we have no reason to complain.  I disagree with respect to CM-version Pals still under warranty, still being sold, with TVGOS still advertised as a feature.  I think we do have reason to complain, but it won't do any good, because --

 

Rovi doesn't count the Pal as a TVGOS product.  I told Rovi my TVGOS product was barely a year old, and they replied that TVGOS products have not been sold since 2006.  I suspect Rovi made their acquisition for the technology or patents, and sees TVGOS as a nuisance obligation past its expiration date.   They don't recognize Dish's TVGOS-lite as TVGOS, even though it's still being sold and advertised as TVGOS.  Whatever products ended six years ago, that's what Rovi calls the last of the TVGOS products.

post #531 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondboy47 View Post

As for DST, I wondered if in fact it was only asking if it is observed or not and not that it's DST right now.
That is understandable.  It would have been clearer if the display had asked whether your area observes DST (in contrast to "is observing DST").
Quote:
The CM tech couldn't answer that.
That is truly sad.
post #532 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondboy47 View Post

Thanks, Kelson. I was in fact not aware, until just the last few days about TVGOS/ROVI. Where I was trying to go, was in hopes, to get people to complain to Channel Master on mass, or to their local Gov. affiliate (warranty law obligations) of their lack luster dismissal of their warranty obligations. Not our problem if a 3rd party service goes belly up. In fact, if pushed, the law is on our side about this issue.
This type of argument has been put forth already. Comb through the documentation and the warranty information card of the CM-7000 DVR and try to find any passage that says the availability of TVGOS is, in any way, guaranteed for any length of time. I doubt you will find such a passage. What you will probably find is a disclaimer that says it may not be available for all locations, let alone for the life of the product. You may also find a disclaimer that says TVGOS unavailability does not constitute a lack of product operability.

However it may be advertised, the productsimply featured support for a third party service that may or may not be available at your location. Kind of like players that offer support for various streaming services but in no way guarantee their continued existence.
post #533 of 705
Oh well. Even with the 00000, the piece of SH*T still doesn't scan and populate the guide using PSIP.

I can only use this crap as a pause unit and I guess, I can manually record certain channels at certain times, like the old VCR way.

At some point, I'll just build another Windows 7 box with another Hauppage 2250 HD card and use Windows Media Center.
At least, that works nicely.

Thanks anyway for the tips, guys. mad.gif
post #534 of 705
You are the only person I am aware of that has this problem. Have you done a factory reset? What kind of antenna? Canadian or US stations? (I don't recall if changing the zip code required a factory reset. It's been 2+ years since I did reset)
post #535 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondboy47 View Post

Oh well. Even with the 00000, the piece of SH*T still doesn't scan and populate the guide using PSIP.
I can only use this crap as a pause unit and I guess, I can manually record certain channels at certain times, like the old VCR way.
At some point, I'll just build another Windows 7 box with another Hauppage 2250 HD card and use Windows Media Center.
At least, that works nicely.
Thanks anyway for the tips, guys. mad.gif

Have yout tried recording one channel, while watching a second channel recently? I wonder if your second tuner (the one I presume does the channel scan for PSIP listings) could have gone bad, and can't tune any channels. If you start a recording, and then tune to a second channel, it would prove that both tuners are working correctly.

Mark
post #536 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondboy47 View Post

Oh well. Even with the 00000, the piece of SH*T still doesn't scan and populate the guide using PSIP.

I can only use this crap as a pause unit and I guess, I can manually record certain channels at certain times, like the old VCR way.

At some point, I'll just build another Windows 7 box with another Hauppage 2250 HD card and use Windows Media Center.
At least, that works nicely.

Thanks anyway for the tips, guys. mad.gif

Check my post on this topic over at the DTVPal thread. It's often not enough to set the zip to 00000; you must also delete the channel that used to send TVGoS, reboot, and add it back. A factory defaults reset will do this, although it's usually overkill.

Once you do this, the Pal will realize TVGoS is gone and start scanning all channels for guide info when in standby (and not recording two channels at once).

BTW, the DST question should be answered YES unless you live where DST isn't observed (e.g., AZ). It doesn't matter whether DST is in effect at the moment. This is used to adjust the time sent out by your TV stations from UTC to your local time. (Also be aware that your recording timers will likely get corrupted on or about the time DST goes into or out of effect twice each year, and you'll need to fix them manually.)

That said, I can't blame anyone for giving up on the Pal and going the HTPC route. Once you get past WMC7's quirky setup, it's a pretty darn good DVR alternative. (Of course there's no guarantee WMC7's guide will remain free forever either, but at least for now it works just fine.)
Edited by JHBrandt - 1/19/13 at 8:45pm
post #537 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondboy47 View Post

TalkingRat: are you saying that this product was discontinued 6 years ago? Or did I read that wrong? If that's the case, then this supports moreso, my point that CM has an obligation under consumer laws to support and backup their warranty. It may in fact take many of us to make a big stink about this, ESPECIALLY if this product was discontinued that long ago but that they still sell it. As of today, I still see it on their site for sale.

No, Pals are newer, IIRC oldest December 2008.  I think those who bought the Pal then (and those who paid $30 in a few limited Sears stores when Sears dumped their inventory) are the ones saying we got our money's worth, we have no reason to complain.  I disagree with respect to CM-version Pals still under warranty, still being sold, with TVGOS still advertised as a feature.  I think we do have reason to complain, but it won't do any good, because --

Rovi doesn't count the Pal as a TVGOS product.  I told Rovi my TVGOS product was barely a year old, and they replied that TVGOS products have not been sold since 2006.  I suspect Rovi made their acquisition for the technology or patents, and sees TVGOS as a nuisance obligation past its expiration date.   They don't recognize Dish's TVGOS-lite as TVGOS, even though it's still being sold and advertised as TVGOS.  Whatever products ended six years ago, that's what Rovi calls the last of the TVGOS products.

Echostar (who made both the Dish and CM versions of the Pal) acquired the rights to TVGoS as part of a settlement of a lawsuit. They wrote their own code to use the TVGoS data rather than licensing Rovi's code. That's why the Pal is the only TVGoS device that doesn't have advertising on the guide screen.

Of course, all that means that Rovi couldn't care less what happens to the Pal once TVGoS is gone.
post #538 of 705

^I assume that the agreement with Dish did not extend beyond Rovi's obligation with paying manufacturers.  Rovi's "six year" comment I took as having legal significance, no contracts after 2006 and all had since expired.  But contracts with manufacturers is one thing.  Consumers still have expectations for support of legacy products.  Pal consumers aren't ignored more than anybody else, Rovi is ignoring all consumers equally.  rolleyes.gif   

 

Even though it won't stop Rovi from shutting down TVGoS, consumer complaints can improve things.  For example, manufacturers may be required to disclose the contractual duration of third party services.  And being aware of the limitation of manufacturer agreements with third party services, I will now pay closer attention to the existence of third party services, who provides them, and the expectation of longevity.

 

With the Pal's replacement CM7400, it looks like the future of guide data is even less certain.  You have to read the fine print to even know the guide is a third party service, apparently with no long term contract with CM for for continued guide service or price.

post #539 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Consumers still have expectations for support of legacy products.  Pal consumers aren't ignored more than anybody else, Rovi is ignoring all consumers equally.
But were PAL users ever customers of Rovi -- not really.
post #540 of 705

Customers, no.  Consumers, yes.  When a manufacturer contracts with a third party service, as Rovi suggests, the manufacturer is the customer, not the end user.  Dish paid for the TVGoS service rights in their product.  Just because the "price" was arrived at in settlement negotiations rather than cash, doesn't make it free.  You can be sure the value of TVGoS was included in the price Dish and CM set.  It apparently has significant sales value to CM, since they continue to advertise the product as TVGoS. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: HDTV Recorders
AVS › AVS Forum › HDTV › HDTV Recorders › Channel Master CM-7000PAL HD DVR - AKA Dish DTVPal