*Official* Denon AVR-1911/791 & AVR-2311CI/891 Owner's Thread - Page 6

Thanks for the "standard" button, it wasn't working when i was hitting it from some mode, works now though.

Yeah i have the included fm antenna plugged in, but i even swapped in my VHF rabbit ears i use for tv and it didnt make much difference.

That picture of the 2310 and it's speaker connects,do they take banana plugs?
It doesn't look like it does.
Thanks

All Denon AVRs take either a banana plug or bare wire.

thanks!

I'm building a new HT system and have been out of the scene for over a decade. I'm currently looking at the 591, 791, and 1910 (on sale @ListenUp).

1. Will MultiEQ handle a 3.1 speaker setup?

2. Will ARC work when there is no cable box driving the AVR? In my case, the cable would be connected to the TV, so no video is passing from the AVR to the TV. Would the Denon still be able to receive the TV's audio?

3. Finally, would anyone care to recommend a 5.1 speaker system around ~ $1200 to consider for use with 591/791/1910 in a 12x20 room? Paradigms are easy to get in my town, but not beholden to them.


p.s. Many thanks to Batpig for his FAQ. The description of Listening Modes was much better that the manual's!

Regarding my question #2 above, I just got a reply in the HDMI forum that ARC should work in that scenario:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post18768181

Hi. When can is the release date of the AVR 1911 in Australia?

Likely sometime this month (June) as it is in the US.

1. Yes, anything from 2.0 and higher.
2. In order for ARC to work, both the TV and the AVR must be HDMI 1.4 so that would rule out the 1910. Also, it's the TV audio that is involved so as long as the TV's internal tuner is processing audio, it can be sent to the HDMI 1.4 AVR. Therefore, it would still work in your case with no cable box as the TV's internal tuner is still processing the audio from the cable, just as it would if someone had an OTA antenna on the roof.
3. Better posted in the speakers forum.

The 43xx series is out of my price range. What about the 891?

What bp notes is that the lower level Denon AVRs cannot support 4 ohm speakers at really LOUD volume, however, if you are just playing average volume, then the 891 or even 791 will work just fine.

Im at the same boat. Any of 591/1611/791/1911 could up convert when video + audio signal is on HDMI? I am using Ac Ryan to play HD movie but I also have some DVD quality files. Can it up convert to give better picture when i play DVD quality file on my LCD (Sharp 52D85UN).
Should I buy 1611 or 591. I love 1611 because I can bi-amp with my polkaudio monitor 60. I never try bi-amp before. Is that really better quality?
Thanks in advanced.

In post #4, here's what Batpig says about the 791/1911:

- Video conversion of any input (analog or digital) up to 1080p with ABT-1030 video processor chip

Batpig has some things to say about scaling here:

http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#general

I also noticed the 591 doesn't support bi-amping but its sibling the 1611 does. All my friends who have bi-amped their fronts and done an A/B test told me they could not hear a difference. When I Googled around, I found a mix of opinions.

By the way, there is a rumor your AC Ryan can be modified to bitstream Blu Ray audio to an AVR. See the comments section:

http://www.iboum.com/pr/playon.php

Thanks
My ACR is DD+ so it can NOT pass HD master audio .
Can 1611 or 591 up scale HDMI to HDMI?

If you go to Denon's website and download the product sheets and owners manuals for the 591 and 1611, they both say:

All sources are up-converted to HDMI

I'm new here but that seems to be a "yes".

yes you are new actually that's a big NO

upconvert = change format (e.g. converting an analog video signal input to HDMI output)
upscale = change resolution (e.g. 480i > 1080p)

the 1611/591 models can convert any analog input to HDMI output, so you only have to run one cable to the TV, but they cannot do ANY video processing whatsoever. that means if it goes out at the exact same resolution it came in, leaving your TV to do the video processing. everything just passes through.

the 1911/791 models can actually scale any input signal up to 1080p, in addition to upconverting analog signals to HDMI output.

the 2311/891 models (and on up) can also overlay volume/GUI graphics on top of the video signal, and have picture controls (e.g. color, brightness, contrast, etc) that are separate per input so you can tweak video sources separately.

"(ie 1610/590/1611/591 = 75W; 1910/790/1911/791 = 90W; 2310/890/2311/891 = 105W; 3310/990/3311/991 = 120W)"

Aside from a feature list that might be attractive to some it seems that video performance technologies involved are pretty much the same, any audio performance changes would only be due to wattage increases, and build quality would be same throughout...(correct me if wrong)

I'm interested in getting a compare/advice of this series audio and video performance against either the Pioneer VSX-1020k or against Pioneer Elite VSX-TXH series. Specifically I am eyeballing a 21TXH and wondering if it would be a fair compare or would Denon have to put up something from the 33XX line to be close in the 3 contexts of audio performance, build quality, and video performance. That's pretty much the order of my preference anyways. Thinking I may want to sacrafice 3d capability for a jump up in at least the audio and video contexts if I can find suitable upgrade model at a used or closeout pricing. AVR will be running Polk Monitor 70's/CS20 which I understand likes to come alive when fed clean power...Is there something else I should consider? Thanx in advance for any thoughts.

you are correct that audio quality / build quality is the same from the 59x/16xx up to to the 89x/23xx level.

you are incorrect that video performance is the same; in fact that is one of the major differentiations between the different levels. I explain the differences more specifically in the FAQ in post #4 of this thread.

I don't have personal experience with Pioneer but if you do some searches you will find many comparisons. Audio/build quality should be pretty similar, a lot depends on whether you prefer the Audyssey setup or Pio's MCACC; the Elite Pio's will probably have better build quality though. The 1020 will not -- you can walk into Best Buy and see for yourself if you want to feel how hefty they are (the Pio 1020 on down isn't).

The Denons from 79x/19xx on up will have slightly better video performance; you can read CNet's reviews for a comparo of the 1910 vs Pio 1019 in terms of video.


yes, you should consider better speakers, since audio performance is your stated first priority. Those are essentially entry-level Polks; if your primary goal is improved audio performance you would be better off buying the cheaper AVR and instead sinking that money into a really nice subwoofer or upgraded speakers.

Stepping up from, say, the $349 AVR 591 to the $849 AVR 2310CI will gain you almost nothing in terms of audio quality, it will all be about additional features. But take that $500 and put it into your subwoofer budget..... now we are talking!

Thanx Batpig for quik response!!..
Pioneer specs show that the Elite I mentioned as having class A/B amp (Discrete (A.D. Energy)) so that is not really a jump over this Denon line were talking about right? Sounds like a first entry level into their higher end stuff...
With budget restraints and a wife to keep in the house I felt lucky to find and inact a larger yet slimmer tower setup as the Polk Monitor 70's into our living area. Essentially they same as TSi500 and many find them a pleasure to listen to so but time will tell. They came at a used $180 price as part of a cheapy Sony HTIB along with a Premier Acoustics PA120 so can't really complain. I figure by time the surround speaker part is done I'll have a grand total of $450-$500 in it counting some dipolar surrounds.. , keeping a wife happy should have been placed as #1 priority,, haha.
That said, I wasn't planning to spend more than about that same amount on receiver to bring me into this decade. I would be sitting on an under $1k setup that might sound closer to a $2k+ setup.(debatable of course).. So I ask you Batpig, if I stretch another $300-$500 into the receiver budget do ya think I can make an audio jump to better power the Polks or would it be throwing more bad for bad? Read one review where someone powered them with a discrete Nad amp and they really came alive so to speak. Unsure how such a jump in sound quality can be had though in the AVR field or what brand/models I should be considering. Seems I may have to trade away such common place things as even hdmi capability to acheive something of higher audio. In general is throwing something like a Denon 33XX class or better at this level surround sytstem like throwing away money? Isn't it better to throw better amps into decent speakers than it is to throw better speaker into mediocre/entry level amp? If so, isn't it fair to say that these here lower class receiver amp sections aren't an outclassing of the speaker setup?. In knowing that a decent low/mid class receiver can do wonders for even the cheapest speakers I really do hope that I can throw something fairly good to better at them with results that do the receiver technology some justice. Would be dumb to overspend a set of speakers or receiver in my humble opinion.. If this makes any sense can someone translate the line of 'good to better' into models or brand selection and/or point me to thread that makes layman sense of the audio technolgy I should be learnin about?

VSX-1020k is based on discontinued ABT-1018. And it's video upscaling performance looks better than DCDi in Onkyo 608. From what I gathered about Denons, 791/1911/down use ABT-1030 and 891/2311/up use ABT-2015. Either one should be equal or better to VSX-1020k. I think the difference ABT-2015 makes is overlay capability and i/p-frame processing (upscaling would be even better).

A more interesting comparison would be VSX-1120 (Marvell) vs AVT-2311 (ABT2015). Too bad neither one is available yet

ktm911 -- you need to invest in some paragraphs! can't read that big blob of text!


no, I already said so!


yes; only do it if you want the extra FEATURES (e.g. networking)


actually, no, it's the exact opposite, which is the point I am trying to make

as a rule of thumb, you should spend MORE on speakers than your receiver. Some people think you should spend 2-3x as much on speakers/subwoofer as on the receiver...

Well I owned the Pioneer VSX-920k for a few weeks and replaced it with the AVR-891. I believe the VSX-920K, like the 1020K, has the ABT-1018 chip. The improvement in video quality of the AVR-891 with the ABT-2015 chip is significant - I was pretty surprised by it.

My use of the term "decent speakers" is of course subjective and debatable as to what speakers they apply to but in my world they would imply suitable to the modern average listeners ear and perhaps capable of getting better sounding to an audiophiles ear as its paired with better and better stuff. I suppose for many, including yourself, the Polks spoke of just don't fit that bill whatsoever. Surely wouldn't argue such neither as I get older and deafer I can't hear nothin anyways over the air conditioner.. Knowing there is great debate over which comes, first smoke or fire?, I just want to be happy with a small hot campfire along with aspirations of climbing everest now and then..

please know that I am not trying to malign your choice of speakers I have nothing against Polks!

my only goal is to keep you from wasting money based upon false premises... chasing a fancier AVR hoping for vastly improved sound quality is not a wise investment

Yea I know your not Even I, owner of some Polks, hold no great attachment to them. I am just concerned now whether anything of audio quality at all wil be gained in switching to this line of Denon over the cheapy sony theater in a box junk. Sounds like yer saying though they won't even try to keep up with these entry level Denon let alone something better..

ps- oops.. just missed the end of an Avr-891 ebay auction. No one wanted to pay over $380 for it. I was gonna stick in $450 to see if reserve come off. That about highest I go not knowing if any kind of warranty is involved..

I don't think that is what he is saying. Having read through all his faqs and this thread etc I believe he is saying that all the Denon AMPs from top to bottom produce pretty much the same quality sound. There is a lot more room for improvement by purchasing better speakers.

So ignoring features, unless your speakers need more power, which yours do not, you won't see any improvement in audio quality from a higher end amp. Its like going to a store to buy a bottle of water and you have to decide whether you need a gallon of water or 64oz. If you are just going out for a walk you don't need to buy the gallon bottle of water and the water quality is the same. Buying a bigger jug of water just means you have to lug around a bigger jug of water or in the case of the receiver means you have to spend more money.

I don't hear him saying they same quality top to bottom.. just the series I quoted:
"(ie 1610/590/1611/591 = 75W; 1910/790/1911/791 = 90W; 2310/890/2311/891 = 105W; 3310/990/3311/991 = 120W)"
That's not top to bottom really is it..they got better stuff right?
Something/anythings got to be better than the cheapy 75 watt Sony htib powering me now. These entry level Denon I assume are at least a minimum receiver I should get my hands on. Your metaphor is smart and wise and points out that at a sufficient/certain point it would be dumb to over equip. Must have enough power for todays walk and being this thing now does not come to sufficient audio level at max volume I have to get new receiver just to make it out the door. Todays power walk though will be same as tomorrows really as the 70's are plenty in terms of power. But which brand/model levels would be suggested that the polk 70's walk next to? I know if I walkin next to a blonde I look better and my water may even taste sweeter. Maybe it better to have a case of sweet tasting water..one for each day or hair color of the week..lol. If I get tired of what currently surrounds me I could just change er out.

ps- yea I know it getting dumb and silly now.. Just tellme what goes good with a TSi500 (monitor 70) system as I already commited to it for time being due to budget and fact that I still need a decent receiver/hdmi hub.

I was under the impression from what I have read that within Denon's lineup that the basic audio quality was pretty much the same with the main difference being wattage. At least that is what the faq on his web page suggests.

http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html

It might not be the same from top to bottom but very close. I think the fact is that the audio technology is good enough now that even the entry level is very good quality.

I guess the real question you are asking is which amp gives you the minimum amount of power you need. I could make a guess but I don't know enough to answer that question. If I was a betting man I would guess that even the Denon 391 with 75W per a channel would be sufficient until you start getting into the high performance 4 ohm speakers.

You can see that the recommended power for your speakers ranges from 20-275W in the product spec sheet (275W is probably where you start to break them). That would indicate to me that 75W would not be underpowered. Given that the smallest difference in volume a normal person will notice is 3 dB and that represents a doubling in output power I doubt you would notice the difference in adding the extra 15W by moving up to the 1911.

What you might notice is the extra features but that is subjective and based on your personal needs. I personally just bought a Denon 1910 because it had the features I wanted at a price I was willing to pay even though it is overkill for my speakers. There is nothing wrong with doing that if that is the way you want to go.

Browsing through the forums I have seen very few people arguing over audio quality. Most of the time they argue over how overblown the wattage rating are, reliability, features, and heat. For a forum of audio geeks the fact that there are so few comments comparing actual audio quality of amps even across brands is fascinating to me and indicates there really is not that much of a difference. At least not without spending big wads of cash.

I am still very interested to see what a more knowledgeable audio geek has to say.

I would like to hear from someone who had chance to personally compare AQ of Onkyo 608 vs Denon 891.

Both have about equal output power. Onkyo has THX certification, while Denon has Audissey MultiEQ. Which one wins audiophile contest?

I am new to the forum and the Denon AVR 791. I am having a tough time figuring out how to program the remote, specifically having the Denon remote turn the tv and cable box on and off. Any help will be appreciated. So far i am enjoying the 791