*Official* Denon AVR-1911/791 & AVR-2311CI/891 Owner's Thread - Page 7

Ack, thanks for setting me straight!


Does that mean owners of the 591/791 "Tier 2" models with all HDMI sources could find themselves toggling back and forth between the OSD and the input source when changing settings/options? Is this just a minor annoyance? An example would help me understand better.


In practice, when would this be needed? I know HTPC's don't use the same colorspace as other devices, but the HTPC can be made to conform so no need customize its input settings.

Winston has a review of the 1020K, 608, and 791 here:

http://winstonsreviews.com/?p=330

I was also looking at the 1020, this might be of interest ...

I believe the 1020 is the lowest cost Pioneer this year to have their "Advanced MCACC" room equalization (last year's 1019 and 919 have it but this year's 920 doesn't). I've read some people prefer it to Audyssey MultiEQ because the EQ results can be plotted on a PC and the EQ can be customized by the user. But there sure seem to be more threads about Audyssey than MCACC in AVS.

There also seem to be some EQ differences at lower frequencies. I believe MultiEQ can EQ your sub. I've seen EQ plots for Advanced MFCACC and they go down only to ~65hz. I believe Pioneer does have something related to getting rid of standing waves at low frequencies though.

I don't know if the 1020 has anything like the DynamicEQ and DynamicVolume used by Denon (it does have simple loudness and midnite functions though).

I also noticed Pioneer isn't implementing ARC in the 1020 and lower models, even though they support HDMI 1.4. The 1020 has an ethernet port for internet radio (not Pandora, might be Shoutcast) and a USB port for WMA/MP3/AAC media and iPod if those are features you like.

I don't have Denon, but usually you don't "toggle" between OSD and inputs. OSD simply takes over when you go into setup, and then you come back to your input when you exit setup.

The overlay is not for settings - it is for showing input name/volume level/signal parameters overlaid on top of the picture (usually with a semi-transparent background). That of course requires running video through composition engine, which inevitably alters the original signal, which may degrade it, depending on how good the video engine is.

The ABT10xx series chips (Pioneer 1020, Denon 791/1911 and less) do not have overlay capability, but do have OSD.

I guess I was confused with the meanings of OSD and Menu when I read in Batpig's FAQ:

If you open the OSD (e.g. to use the setup menu or adjust parameters) on a "Tier 2" model, the video will blank out and then the AVR and display will resync to the basic white-text-on-black-background OSD; when you are done, the OSD will disappear and the video will come back.

So I think the situation is ...

The OSD is status info, similar to the status info my new TV can display (channel number, resolution, analog/digital, etc.). None of that will be displayed onscreen when all HDMI sources are used. I suspect that means I'd have to look at the AVR's front panel for that info then.

And the Menu is where settings are viewed/changed. With all HDMI sources, the screen will be switched to the menu with a black background.

Both behaviors are because the electronics needed to overlay the generated video of the OSD/Menu on top of the digital video isn't in the 591/791.

Hope I got that right? Thanks for helping me out of the AVR dark ages (havent' bought one in well over 10 years)

Let's try and clear this up for you both .... the OSD and Menu (1911/791 and lower) refer to the same thing, just as the GUI and Menu (2311/891 and higher) refer to the same thing. The OSD/menu is displayed as block white text on a black background while the GUI/menu (to include volume) is "overlayed" over the input source video so you can make adjustments while still seeing the video source.

With GUI/Menu on 2311/891 and higher, that sounds handy if you're tweaking input-specific options related to video processing (e.g. contrast, colors, etc) since I assume one would see the changes immediately. Correct?

For the 1911/791 and below, are there any significant disadvantages to that black background? In other words, are there situations when you'd really like to see things like the volume level on the screen (instead of looking at the front panel) while in the menu?

This is correct for the 2311/891 and up. As far as the 1911/791 not offering the volume overlay ... well that's a personal preference. It's really important for those folks that have their AVR in a closet and cannot see the front panel display of the AVR. And other folks simply prefer to see the volume on the TV rather than squinting to see the front panel display or using their ears, so it's worth it to them to upgrade to the 2311/891 for just that one feature alone. The other important feature the 2311 (and not the 891) offers is the RS-232 jack which allows you to install your own firmware updates without having to ship the AVR off to an authorized repair facility. Currently the 2310 (and lower models) are on their 3rd firmware update.

Very good. Thanks so much for helping me understand.

Good point about the "CI" models. So many TV's have ethernet ports for firmware upgrades (and internet functions) now, it would be nice to see more serial ports on AVR's. All you'd need is a relatively inexpensive microcontroller or PIC to interface to the flash memory. There's one in there already anyways to handle HDMI-CEC and other functions of the AVR.

Again, correct. This is the "jig" that the authorized repair centers must come up with in order to install the firmware updates on the non CI models. It's also why not all authorized repair facilities can do firmware installations as they have no clue what the "jig" is all about. Some of the 2010 model owners have had their AVRs held at the repair centers for upwards of a month waiting for the center to get a hold of a jig as well as the firmware update itself.

That about same gizmo as jtagging charlie boxes via jeepers to backup or change a tsop in prep for further testing around nagra security schemes?
If these avr utilize jtag port like a sat receiver then all one needs is proper flash bin files, a few readiliy available progs, and a little guidance from the satellite testers like over on a dishnewbies type site. Would be funny though as if ya mention avr over there they'll think yer talking about something totally different than an audio receiver.

I'm pretty familiar with JTAG since I've designed JTAG controllers for some integrated circuits.

I don't know if Denon has any JTAG ports anywhere on their boards (to support manufacturing test). If they do, and if they connected a flash memory controller to the boundary scan chain, then yes, it would be possible to update firmware using the JTAG port in theory.

The non-CI models may have something much simpler. There may just be a PCB header connected to the control/data lines of the flash. The "jig" (possibly a little controller box attached to a laptop) would connect to the header with a cable.

Well, this is all just fun conjecture. But I like your command of hacker buzzwords

I'm having some troubles with the Audio Return Channel (ARC) on my Denon AVR-871. When I turn "HDMI Control" to on (which also turns on ARC) the receiver now defaults to input "TV" whenever I turn it on.

Does anybody know why it does this and can I stop it?

Thanks

Hi torontodude, try turning Off HDMI-CEC feature on your Tv unit (Samsung is AnyNet+, Panasonic is Viera Link, Sony is Bravia Link, etc).

I will try this when I get home. Thanks so much.

Also, I wanted to use the ARC feature so that I could watch one video source but listen to another. For example, I sometimes like to watch golf and have music going (I use dlna for music on my PS3 or my TV). For some reason I thought that ARC would override whatever the current audio source is so I could do this but it appears to only work when the receiver is set to the TV input. When I'm on the tv input, the Denon does have a video source setting that I can change to my cable box, but it doesn't seem to do anything. Does this make sense? Any thoughts?

Basically, the end goal is to be watching tv but listening to music streaming from my server while using only one HDMI cable from my tv tot he receiver.

HDMI Control and HDMI CEC are the same thing. And yes it will switch your receiver to TV input when receiver and TV "sense" each other. That is by design. It will also switch your TV to internal tuner when you turn off BD player. It's a brain-dead feature.

On most receivers you have to have HDMI CEC enabled to have ARC. Some allow you to turn on/off parts of HDMI CEC independently (enable ARC but do not enable switching). If Denon is not one of those, you are

... out of luck. You can try to reassign your HDMI input to "TV" button. On some receivers you can not do that if HDMI CEC is enabled - I hope Denon is not one of those

Hmmm, so if I switch off HDMI CEC (AnyNet) on the tv will I be switching off the ARC function?

you're going to have to try it and see, HDMI-CEC is very unpredictable

regardless, what you want to accomplish is impossible the way you are envisioning it. The point of ARC is to RETURN the audio FROM the TV to the receiver.... so if you are using the TV to stream music, then the TV has to be tuned to that input so the audio can return to the receiver.... you can't then get pipe a separate video stream to the TV from a different input source, because how will the TV display that video input without switching to that source?

Thanks Batpig I was hoping you would chime in. Yes I'm realizing now that this is impossible. I was under the impression that ARC would override the audio of the current source (leaving the video intact) but now I see that it uses its own dedicated input.

Can you think of another way to accomplish this (watching tv and listening to streaming music at the same time) without me having to connect an additional HDMI cable or optical cable to my tv? My tv is flat mounted on the wall and I don't really want to take it down and fish more wires.

not if you are going to use the TV as your streaming "portal" -- this really has nothing to do with ARC, the issue is that you can't simultaneously use your TV to stream music AND ALSO use it to watch a separate video source.

if you could do that, the receiver would be irrelevant, right? you would just stream music to your TV and then switch to a different video source. fishing wires through the wall is irrelevant, because the TV will not be the one used for streaming if you want to mix with a different video source!

however, since you mentioned that you can use the PS3 as your DLNA streaming client, that is your best bet. Then, the audio source is disconnected from the video (on the TV). You will need to enable "multi audio out" on the PS3 so you can get audio out of the optical or analog outputs... then connect that secondary audio output from the PS3 to the Denon.

How is your cable box connected? that will determine the rest of the equation... if you are using HDMI for the box, what you will need to do is make sure the secondary audio output from the PS3 "matches" the cable box input name (e.g. if you are using the SAT/CBL input for the cable box, make sure you plug the analog audio cables from the PS3 into the "SAT/CBL" RCA jacks). Then, you need to go into Input Setup and set the "input mode" to "analog" for your SAT/CBL source and it will pull the audio from the analog input.

Unfortunately, it looks like they removed the "input mode" button from the new remote that makes it a little tougher. One option (to avoid having to dig into the menus to change it) is to use two Quick Select buttons to memorize these two modes. Quick Selects to memorize input mode so that would work....

Thanks again Batpig

I assumed that any other option would exclude my tv for audio streaming. I ordinarily use my PS3 for this anyway. I use HDMI for my cable box.

I had a similar thought when I was writing my previous post that I could connect an optical cable to the PS3 and use the multi audio out feature of the PS3. You mentioning RCA cables however is a bit disconcerting. Using your solution (if I'm getting this right) when watching tv like a normal person, the default state would be to use sound from HDMI (as it is now) but if I wanted to listen to music while watching tv (Input CBL/SAT), I would use "quick select" and switch the audio source of CBL/SAT to analog (which would be the PS3). This sounds great, but can I use optical instead of RCA? Thanks...

I was getting ready to pull the trigger on an 891, but now this thread has steered my attention to the whole firmware update issue, which is making me look at the 2311. It was mentioned here that the 2310 is currently on its 3rd update, which prompts me to ask... what specifically have the three firmware updates contained? Is it known what specific fixes or enhanced functionality were added in the updates? I'd be curious to know how critical these updates have tended to be. Any input would be appreciated...

Click on the 2nd link in my sig ....

I've just hooked up a 791 to my new Jamo's. Have barely begun to even understand how to set this receiver up. Got it at my local Best Buy. Couldn't wait any longer.

Hate to quote myself but this is exactly what happens. I think it's important for people to understand how ridiculous this is. Anybody with a Samsung TV wanting to use the ARC (Audio Return Channel) feature with the Denon AVR 891 (and I assume other models) is going to have a weird setup in which the receiver will always go to input "tv" when you turn your tv on. You are going to either have to manually switch the input every time you want to watch tv, play PS3, watch a movie, etc or figure out how to program your Harmony remote to change the input for you. I did this but I did not like the 15 seconds or so it will take for your Harmony to run through the entire sequence required.

I wonder if it's the Receiver or the TV switching the input? In any event, I don't understand why there aren't more controls available in HDMI-CEC and why Denon or Samsung would assume that you want the input of the receiver to be "tv" every time you turn the tv on.

Does this happen independent of the order they are turned on (TV first, Denon first)?

What would be the preferred AVR behavior - select last input used on power up? Or select input whose source just got turned on?

Assuming there is some CEC interop between brands ... what if you were to turn on your BDP before the TV? Would the 891 select the BDP input and keep it there after the TV turns on? It would be interesting to try this with the TV both unconnected and connected to the 891 (or with HDMI CEC both disabled and enabled on the TV).

I guess the point is, based on what I've read about HDMI-CEC, overall system behavior can be weird when multiple brand devices are used. So some experimenting is needed, as you're doing. The CEC part of the HDMI spec seems to standardize low-level signalling and messaging, but doesn't dictate much at the behavior level. Vendors are allowed to implement proprietary commands and also get waivers for implementing recommended commands and still receive a compliance certificate:

http://www.digitalhomedesignline.com...MY32JVN?pgno=1

There's an HDMI forum where further questions could be posed as well:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=168

Guess I'll get to experiment myself once I pull the trigger on a Denon

I have posted a rather lengthy rant about the whole HDMI-CEC before. Don't want to repeat myself too much, but HDMI CEC is just a poorly designed feature, that makes a lot of assumptions - and most of those are not valid with modern setups.

The switching is not a fault of Denon or Samsung - others like Pioneer and Onkyo do the same thing. That is what HDMI CEC does, they are merely following the [retarded] spec.

Some, like Pioneer are making it worse, by blocking HDMI input reassignments when it is enabled. Others like Onkyo are slightly better - for example on Onkyo you can have HDMI CEC enabled, but "control" part of it disabled, so you avoid switching, yet ARC can still work.

What you need is to reassign "TV input" to use HDMI port. I hope Denon allows that. If it also allowed ARC without control, you'd be fine. But sounds like you did not find a way to do that. Maybe you want Onkyo.

Or maybe you really don't need ARC that much. There was a lengthy discussion about that as well - a lot of people seem to read about ARC and somehow think they really need it, but if your TV can send DD5.1 over SPDIF (which Samsung can), then all you get from ARC is saving that one optical cable. ARC would let you use your TV as sort of a "HDMI hub" for your receiver, but if you got 6 HDMI inputs on receiver already, do you really need 3 more on the TV?

I see how that might be abit concerning but don't even see a need for the ARC...
Who these days still pumps a cable signal to a display directly? Doesn't everyone just hook an hdmi capable cable box direct to receiver?

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...non-avr-591-fl
"ARC allows audio to be sent both up and down the HDMI cable. That way if you have your cable signal pumped directly to your display, you can connect a single HDMI cable and get the picture up to the display from the receiver and audio from cable programming back down to the receiver. In the past, you had to run a separate digital audio cable (typically optical TOSlink). We have yet to see any televisions implement this technology, but when they do it will be a great feature to support."

I want to know how does this technology work in terms of what does it do if everything is on or everything is to come on all at once? Like which input takes precedence? Does it switch to each new thing coming on in order or what?
Cable box is our main content at least 90% of the time. If I have only 1 hdmi going to tv with that tv's input source always set to hdmi won't the receiver see that it is not putting out any audio content like from tv's tuner or it's various other input sources and then the receiver has enough smarts to pick input source as cable box? Would be silly if the receiver picks tv just cause I turned it on. It dang well better know that I want it on cable regardless if cable box is set to come on first or last based on tv not producing anything in way of audio..

The behavior will be pretty retarded if you have all components from one vendor too.

The basic idea of HDMI-CEC is that user never ever should need to switch inputs manually.

- You turn TV on, receiver switches to some designated (by manufacturer) "TV input". Does not matter in what order you turn then - it will happen anyway, I have checked. If you turn TV first and receiver second, for the first few seconds you will actually get your last selected input, so you will see picture and sound, and then voila - you are suddenly on "TV input".
- You turn BD player on, receiver switches to designated BD input.
- You turn BD player off, the TV switches to the internal tuner. Yes, *internal* tuner, not some sat/cable box.

Why all of that nonsense? Of course, because sat/cable boxes don't do HDMI CEC, so they don't exist. It is meant for TVs, receivers and BD players. So if you're not watching BD player, you must be watching TV. From the internal tuner, naturally, since there's nothing else.

Logical isn't it? In the Universe where HDMI-CEC was conceived, that is.
Of course there are few good bits too. You can control your receiver's volume with TV remote. And receiver's volume level will show up on TV screen. And you can turn everything off with one button. And the ARC seems to be inexplicably linked to that too (I am guessing receiver does not want to assume TV is supplying ARC, so it needs HDMI CEC to find out). But to get the good bits, you have to live with the switching assumptions.

What manufacturers actually recommend is keeping HDMI-CEC devices on a separate HDMI chain (TV-AVR-BD), and plugging other devices directly into TV. The audio goes to the receiver through ARC (you can do optical too, but typically only stereo will be passed from HDMI inputs of TV to its SPDIF output, or you have to run optical directly from cable/sat/whatever directly to receiver and switch receiver inputs manually - that will give you DD5.1, but more switching involved, which may be ok with Harmony).

This way everything works as designed. HDMI-CEC devices will switch each other as they are meant to. And you can switch the rest of TV inputs manually. This sounds awkward, but that really is the only way to make HDMI-CEC work in general.

Owlish is a smart dude if you followed the xx10 owner's threads we dealt with HDMI-CEC stupidity constantly. The "magical switching to the TV input" issue was brought up literally dozens of times; every single time the confused individual was saved by turning off HDMI-CEC in the TV.

Basically, I recommend ALWAYS turning off HDMI-CEC unless you have some specific reason to have it on -- it generally causes more harm than good. You are much better off getting a good universal remote to deal with the input switching for you and making your own decisions, not letting some stupid "default priority" input switching that the manufacturers decided for you. If you want to leave "HDMI-Control" enabled in the Denon so you can do the "standby passthrough" thing, and that works flawlessly, by all means go for it... but at the minimum turn that crap off in all your other devices!

HDMI-CEC... HDMI passthrough... ARC... it's all IMHO a bunch of gimmicky garbage that is best turned off and replaced with a couple of extra cables and a Harmony remote