Ascend Sierras for HT on a 1100 budget...would you do it?? - Page 2

What, because I missed he had the Ascend Sierra as a Center too? For god's sake, how is that really pertinent to the discussion. Dissect my posts all you want; he asked for my opinion, he got my opinion. It was based on the fact that I think of the Sierra as a mostly musical speaker, and for me I am more demanding of my 2-channel rig. I can't have a say; I can't demand more of my 2-channel speakers?

Now before you start screaming "you don't think you should be demanding of speakers for your HT" Please spare me that worst fallacy of logic. I didn't say that; I said I am more demanding of speakers for my 2-channel rig, but that doesn't mean I am not demanding of ALL my gear.

I told the guy what I think, and how I stack things up...and everyone is all up in arms, why? Because you're all Sierra owners and that means I'm condemning you too?

Honestly, give it a rest. BTW, I'm getting a ton of PMs saying "good for me"; evidently you Sierra zealots have a reputation that precedes you on AVS. Now I know.

CD

And what was my "stupid" point to make? That the OP should shop around and listen for himself...instead of just taking you guys at your word. Is ANYONE really looking at the OP? "I know nothing about speakers other than what I read here".

Now listen...we've all been in a situation where we might have bought blind, and had to audition at the house. I understand not everyone has access to hi-end salons in their area. And I love and rely on the AVS community as much as anybody.

But anyone in here who isn't man enough to say that the OP should trust what sounds good to him...and test SEVERAL speakers, instead of just the pair you recommend to him; then their not a hobbyist worthy of the moniker.

CD

Would you have made the same first post if you had realized that he had:

A $500 denon receiver
A $550 outlaw sub
Ordered sierra LCR for $1100, <$400 per speaker
The Ability to return them if he didn't like them
The intention of A/Bing against a second brand of speaker that appears to be more HT focused

These are all facts that I gathered from his first post, and basic knowledge of how internet speaker companies do business.

I mean really, what were you trying to say that this dude doesn't already know?

Look at my first post; all I really said was I didn't think it was a good match. If he's such an expert PJ, why is his post a "would you do it". I said I wouldn't, and I made a more modest recommendation of a Paradigm or Klipsch speaker...which are good, bang-for-the-buck models when you're first starting out...and I've gotten endless sh*t for it.

You want to know how I think you're all full of it? Because not one; NOT ONE person has said "well, how can you discount Monitor Audio"...or "what about some used B&Ws to get you started". In other words, NO ONE wants to offer this guy any alternative? So it's not that you want him to look at ANYTHING other than the Sierras; and all you want to do is argue with me because I said I didn't think they were the best choice for the OP. Seriously, you Ascend guys must have an inferiority complex.

CD

Wow man, I really don't know what your deal is. The first sentence of his post says that he wants to put them up against the TCA Pro 10, and several other sentences are about the A/B test he intends to do. He's doing exactly what you want him to do.

You are making claims that aren't backed up by any posts. No one is telling him not to try other speakers, everyone wants this guy to have the best speakers for him. If it's not sierras, so what? Sierra owners are in this thread because they like their speakers and wanted to answer the question in the title.

Ok, so you can recommend paradigm and klipsch, but sierra owners can't endorse sierras?

No one has said anything against the speakers you recommended, I hope the OP can try them if he wants to. What people are against is your previous ignorance of the OP's situation and weirdly aggressive posting. The reason that no one has recommended other things is because this is a Sierra thread. People don't usually go into threads about equipment they don't own. I wouldn't have come in here and recommended sierras if the title was "Used B&W for HT on a 1100 budget...would you do it??" because I don't own used B&Ws and have nothing to say for or against them.

OK PJ...and I couldn't be more sincere when I say I am really asking; if the guy knows nothing about speakers, why is the TCA Pro 10 (which I have never heard of) his "B" choice? My guess is...because he also read about it here, or elsewhere.

I'm trying to tell this guy "no one can tell you what's good"; try some stuff for yourself instead of just looking to buy what others say is good. And seriously dude, enough. Like I said; I've gotten a ton of PMs saying there's no winning with you guys.

CD

The whole point of this forum is for other people to tell you what's good. It's impractical and a waste of time to attempt to listen to every speaker in your price range. You read the forum for a while, see what speakers tend to get recommended a lot, see which are available to audition locally or have in home trial periods and go from there.

That's exactly what he's doing. If he doesn't like the sierras, send them back. If he doesn't like the TCAs, send them back. Then maybe he'll try klipsch or paradigm as you recommended.

Don't lump me in the group saying the Sierra's will make good HT speakers. I agree with your point that the poster might want a speaker with a little more impact. I just think a good speaker is a good speaker and if a speaker can do HT well it can do music well. My idea of a great HT speaker is one that has high sensitivity, high power handling and controlled directivity. The Sierra does not meet all of those qualities.

I did offer an alternative. I suggested Pro-10's to the poster with back up for my suggestion. This was done in another thread the OPer started regarding speaker choice. Since the poster said he was going to order the Pro-10's for a comparison I saw no reason to bring them up any more. Three Pro-10's are around 20% cheaper than the Sierra speakers. I think the Pro-10's are exactly the type of speaker that you would suggest for HT. My only contention with your posts was how your posts made it sound like you do not need a good SQ speaker for HT. I think you need a good sound quality speaker. Along with the high sensitivity, high power handling and directivity to make a good HT speaker.

Added
What is so funny, I caught all kinds of flack for suggesting the Pro-10's in the other thread.

[quote=CDLehner;18736785]OK PJ...and I couldn't be more sincere when I say I am really asking; if the guy knows nothing about speakers, why is the TCA Pro 10 (which I have never heard of) his "B" choice? My guess is...because he also read about it here, or elsewhere.

I'm trying to tell this guy "no one can tell you what's good"; try some stuff for yourself instead of just looking to buy what others say is good. And seriously dude, enough. Like I said; I've gotten a ton of PMs saying there's no winning with you guys.

Good Morning CD, I thought your advice was sound and made sense. I didn't take offense to anything you had said and got the idea of what YOU were trying to say. Just like hundreds of other posts trying to give a "newb" some advice. Bottom line, the OP asked for advice, you gave some PERIOD. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't put 3 Sierras across my front for an HT only set-up either. Before any of you Ascend peeps jump on me, I am talking from experience. I have owned 170s, 340s and the beloved Sierras. If music is not a priority I would buy the 340s and add the difference(from the Sierras) to get a bigger better sub. If my set-up was a "music first" instead of HT I would say Sierras may fit the bill. For HT I wanted more slam then the Sierras offered. At the time I was running dual SVS 12Ultras, so no one needs to tell me I needed more sub. The Sierras just didn't have enough slam down in the mid bass area FOR ME.



Agreed. For the same money, I would look at something else. Paradigm, among others,have several models that I THINK would fit the need better. I am not a Klipsch fan, the top end and I just don't get along. How about 340s across the front or even 170s and a 340 for a center. I DID run that combo with very good results. YMMV

For mostly ht use, I think 3 Ascend 340s across the front would be very good. Additionally you could also throw in some 200s for the rears. I believe the total is about $1000 shipped. A very good deal in this price range.

I have listened to the RB-81's. I have owned RB-35's. Still have one pair. The 35's and 81's are very similar. 81's were the replacement for the 35's. The 35's were pretty good for HT, but I think the Pro-10's will be a lot better. I would wait and see.

I've owned every speaker Ascend makes. And I'm sorry to have to inform you, you spent too much.

Ascend's best HT speaker is the 340 (for the front 3, overkill for the back). With the Sierra in HT, you lose overall impact, and the delicately, pleasant way it reproduces MUSIC will just not be appreciated in HT. As for the bass, you're best served buying a nice sub to do the low work, not making the Sierra's do it. However much you can afford for the sub, add the difference between 340s and Sierras to buy an even BETTER sub. Again, we're talking HT strategy.

Don't get me wrong, I like my Sierras. But to appreciate them over my former 340s, listening to a music CD is a must.

I can't wait until you get the Pro-10's for a comparison with the Sierra's. I am 99.99% sure that it will be no contest. Same goes for any other speaker that Ascend sells. Be sure and post what you think once you have both sets in your home. Sorry Ascend owners, but that is what I think and once the poster gets both and lets us know, then we will have our answer. If I am wrong you can give me all the crap you want, but I don't think that will be a problem that I will have to deal with.

Most movies have a musical score. There is not difference between enjoying the same music as a stand alone performance or a part or the HT experience. Both should sound the same. HT just needs to have a lower frequency response due to the special effects (mostly explosions) that music does not have. Of course, the
low frequencies are delivered through the sub-woofer, not the main speakers.

For the best HT sound experience, you would want mains that give great musical sound, plus a sub-woofer that supplies the ultra-low freqency special effects at an appropriate loudness.

That being said, I'm planing on upgrading my front speakers to the 340s. My budget can't justify the extra cost of the Sierras.

Hmm...this all sounds vaguely familiar.

CD

Just some corrections:

Musical doesn't really mean that it's good only for music, it means that it can produce life-like music (sounds, whatever). It doesn't mean that it's not good for HT, only that it can produce life like sounds. Which is something you definitely want even in HT speakers.


warm will depend the room, Ascend sells some port plugs to help tweak them for different room/settings, so the warmth (some emphasis in bass) you might get in some rooms can be tamed with those. But again, the other 2 are definitely qualities you'll greatly enjoy for HT.


The Sierras do have some punch. And they definitely do have bottom-end, with ~40hz response...[/quote]


Like these? http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...net?sku=601388 (98dB speaker)


Somewhat disagree, the Paradigms you'll get at that price won't be that nice compared to Sierras. Klipsch? Meh... Not really a comparison there. Though I agree you could go for 340SEs, which are also great speakers. I've said often I'd probably opt for a 340SE channel vs Sierra center if I wanted to go HT (have both Sierras and 340SE) and save some money. But I can definitely see many going the Sierra route for the center, even after hearing and owning both.


How do you use the Focus? Two channel? Do you think they'd be bad for HT? Did you read this review? http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...c_sierra_1.htm? (seems to contradict quite a few things you've said...)

Anyway, if you add a sub and crossover your mains, you reduce quite a bit the 'work' they have to do (most woofer killing material is <80hz, cut that, the woofer can play louder than it would normally). Sound quality isn't lost with HT, and going with cheaper speakers which lower sound quality isn't the answer for everybody...


Quoted for truth.

The Sierras have fantastic off axis response. So right there, one of your two criteria for HT performance is met. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages.../srm1meas.html

And then you have Dynamics. Again, to bring you back to the 300$ PA speaker with horn and 2x 15 inch woofer, I don't think you'd be very happy with them in your HT setup.

The power handling and sensitivity is more an issue if you want to hit reference levels. And then there's the question of hitting it cleanly. For 1000$ dollars, pair, what speaker exactly would you recommend instead of Sierras? Again, I have both (340SE and Sierra) and use Sierras in music/HT room... I see no downside to using Sierras vs 340SE except price... Even prefer the Sierras for its advantages over the 340SE (more detailed, better imaging, better bass, more punch, tighter...). It all depends, if I wanted to run them 5x as loud as I do, maybe I'd prefer the 340SE or another speaker, but that's not the case for me...

But I'd be curious to read about your <1000$ choices for speakers better than Sierras for HT... More dynamic, more sensitive, might be able to find them, but how will the y compare in every other way? (imaging, detail, flat FR, transients, bass response, etc.)? Is being able to play extremely loud that important to you that you'll want to sacrifice having nice clean sound? Because let's face it, budget pricing is mostly about compromise, you can't have it all under 1k, if you have a big box, larger woofers, you'll definitely lose some things vs Sierras...

Research Constant Directivity and what it really means. Domes do not have constant directivity unless they are placed in a waveguide. Those measurements tell me its not great off axis.

The sierras are complete crap for dynamics. Lets do the numbers....

A common HT distance is > 10 feet
Movie peaks are easily > 20dB
You want 80dB at your listening position so you need 100dB peaks.

you tell me what amp power you need so you are not clipping and then tell me what compression those Sierras have at the peaks! Heck, we are not even asking for reference levels because these speakers can not do reference levels period.



The OP asked "Ascend Sierras for HT on a 1100 budget...would you do it?? " and my answer is hell NO!!! Not a remotely good speaker for serious HT. They are simply a compromise.

If its $300 in DIY Then my latest DIY designs are superior to anything banter around in this thread.

Heck, I would put up the Tannoy V8s I just pulled off ebay for $100 each against the sierras in terms of dynamics and Constant directivity.


"Nice clean" is audiophile subjective banter....not backed up by any measurement. Waveguide designs are inherently cleaner actually because they have lower distortion especially during the peak SPL requirements every HT has.

What you are loosing by thinking the Sierras are good for HT is what I can performance.

I agree there isnt many CD/dynamics designs offered for under $1K....that will be changing though.

This is where "what sound you like" might mismatch other requirements.

If you think the Paradigms where harsh on the high end then Klipsch do not stand a chance. IMO, I would EQ either of them to tilt down at the higher frequencies taming the harshness.


Are you doing listening tests with music? There is a difference between that and movie playback and if this is a HT only solution you have to consider that music is a smaller part of movies.

Anyways, there is always compromises in any choice. You will have to decide what is most important.

"compromising Dynamics and uniform off axis response". -- Did you mix up constant directivity and uniform off axis response? Again, in a HT setting, you won't be that far off axis. So again, what's the big advantage to a speaker with uniform off axis response? 15 degrees seem quite uniform to me on the Sierras, how off axis do your speakers are in your HT or most home HTs? 30 degrees off axis? 45 degrees off axis? What's the big advantage of Constant directivity in a usual HT setting?



You're looking at horizontal right? Again, might depend on your room. You sit more than 15 degrees off axis from your speakers?


Lets say we take the 87dB in room sensitivity rating. And two 200$ amps (Behringers A500), for 400$ total, rated 600 Watts into 8 Ohms , so let's be conservative and divide it by 2, 300W.

So you get like 25dB gain from amp, and lose about 10dB from the distance, 3dB from sonic reinforcement, you're at 105dB. With 400$ worth of amps, seem to make the peaks at 100dB. Amp shouldn't be clipping at 1/2 rated power. Compression, I don't know.


DIY The OP didn't ask for DIY speakers. You didn't mention DIY speakers either. If you consider the 50 hours you'll spend on your speakers vs reasonable 20$/h salary, then you're already at 1300$, which almost doubles the price of the Sierras or quadruple if you consider used... Then add the price of the tools... The ease of ordering a speaker online vs sweating for hours and praying to have something decent (that you don't screw up) at the end... Or compare to used speakers going at 1/2 the price... Your 300$ speakers might not be looking so good! Compare apples to apples. What other ID or B&M speaker at 1100 (price paid by OP for 3 mains) would be better for HT in your opinion?


-3dB point at 85Hz... And I'm sure it's such a fantastic speaker in all way superior to Sierras... See, you're just being silly now! I'd put your tannoys against an EUROLIVE VS1220 600W 12" PA Speaker for $54.60 too... Still, I'd not trade any of these for Sierras, and neither would I want them in my HT room, even if they have better dynamics and Constant directivity... These two things do not make good speakers, nor do they make good HT speakers either... (although I respect your opinion that you think they do... And I see that it's an advantage, but definitely not the most 2 important IMHO.)

What do you consider HT? Gi Joe and Transformers? You know, I'm constantly amazed how different people are. If you're a twelve year old kid, and for you a HT and a good movie is a brainless action flick with mindless explosions and no plot, then yeah, then maybe you'll go for is purely dynamics.

But that's not what everybody goes for. What is for you the most important part might not be important for someone else. It's funny that you dismiss music and say that it's a smaller part of movies. What's the bigger part? When the truck blows up and the helicopter flies overhead? When Hulk smashes the wall? That's what HT is about? Well, for most people yes. And I guess that this only works WHEN ITS REALLY REALLY LOUD AND THE WHOLE PLACE SHAKES, WALLS RATTLES AND YOU MUST COVER YOUR EARS BECAUSE IT'S SO FRIGGIN LOUD AND YOUR EARS WILL BE RINGING FOR HOURS AFTER THE MOVIE OMGOMG YES YES YES THAT IS MOST IMPORTANT THAT IS SO AWESOEM!!!1111ONEONOENOE



Honestly, that makes me yawn, I'd much rather go with quality over quantity. If you can get the whole package for 1000$, quality, dynamics, etc. hell, go for it, but I've not seen it anywhere near 1000$. You want the sound quality of Sierras with the dynamics of Wilson Maxx/Sophias with that six foot tall Wilson sub with 2x 18 drivers, you know, you're gonna spend more than 1000$. For 1000$, what you get from B&M and ID is compromised. You didn't quite answer, what would be your recommendations in sub B&M/ID 1000$ market? Were you kidding with the Tannoys or were you being serious?

Man, you Sierra guys just have trouble accepting that anyone should choose anything else. I don't use the Focus 140s in my HT, just my 2-channel rig. Are you trying to say they're no good? That is to laugh my friend.

CD

Stop it pal; it's a ridiculous point. Of course music, and soundtracks are a big point of filmmaking. I use An Education, which I recently screened in my room, as a great example. But even though the music was a big part of that film, and scores are important in many films...it's stil not front and center like if you're sitting and listening to music. If that were the case, wouldn't you just turn off the dialogue (and effects) and follow a film by score?

CD

No I'm not trying to say they're no good, exactly the opposite. That they'd also be pretty good in an HT setting.

You're missing the point. For you the explosions, car crashes sound effects, glass shattering all at 130dB might be the central focus for a pleasant HT experience, but that's not the case for all. Some of us would rather go for speakers with high sound quality than speakers who can blow up stuff like no tomorrow. Maybe that's the most important thing for HT for you, explosions and all kinds of loud noises, but it's not for all. Just like for 2ch. listening, some might for for imaging, others might go for warmth, dynamics, HT requirements and preferences varies depending on the listener.

Some might prefer a 1000$ speakers with 6 twelve inch woofers and a horn, while others might prefer a 2500$ speaker with a single 6.5 inch woofer. Holds true for 2ch and an HT system.