Ascend Sierras for HT on a 1100 budget...would you do it?? - Page 3

Gandarf, you are so far off base with regards to good HT speakers it is not even funny. The speakers that Penn or I have been talking about are not cheap PA speakers. Also for HT use why would you want a speaker to have a -3db point lower than 60 to 80hz. A good HT will use a sub (usually two or more) to reproduce the low end.

The HT world is changing. You are going to see more and more speakers built using pro audio drivers. Please go listen to an HT that uses JTR, Seaton Sound, Danley or Geddes speakers. These speakers have very good sound quality. Capable of high sound pressure, Great imaging. They also have the ability to provide the dynamics that you will not experience with some thing like the Sierras. I have two HT's in my home. One uses RBH 661-SE's and SI-760's. The 661-SE is a similar design to the 340-SE. My dedicated room uses JTR T8's. Both HT's have 106" screens. Heck the HT with the RBH speakers has the better projector (Marantz VP12S4), but guess which one gets all the use for movies? The one that uses the JTR speakers because it is no contest and I do not have to be near reference levels to hear that difference.

Also I doubt that the Sierras at 105db sound very good since you have to push them to their limit to get 105db at 10'. The Behringer A500 is a bad choice for driving mains. Testing has shown a lot of variance in the distortion figures.

This is something that I don't understand. Can you explain to me what the Pro-10 has in common with the speakers you have referenced?

Claytont - GREAT user title.

Your approach to this entire exercise is about as good as one could ask for. You are taking your time and checking out several different speakers in your own environment with your own gear.

You may well find, when you receive the Sierras, that they play as loud and clean as you like.

One thing to keep in mind if you go listening to speakers at a local shop after you get the Sierras: You are using a 90 watt per channel, $500 Denon receiver. Make sure you are not hearing the speakers in the store on a $2000 receiver or a separate pre-amp/power amp front end. You won't have that front end on your system at home.

Some stores (though it is becoming rare) will even let you try the speakers at home.

Did you mention the size of the room ?

And are you having fun yet ?

All of those speakers have high power handling, high sensitivity and directivity. All of them use a pro woofer. All of them use some type of waveguide or horn. All of them use a compression driver for the high frequencies. The Pro-10 fits in the same category. It is just not on the same level as those other speakers. Of course those other speakers cost 3 to 10 times as much. That is what excites me about this speaker. If this speaker performs as advertised it gets you to a performance level that you used to have to spend $3,000 thousand dollars or more to get to, at only $1,000 for the front stage. I am not saying this speaker is as good as JTR or Seaton Sound speakers or any of the other high performance HT speakers that I have listed. It gives people the opportunity to have a high performance reference level HT at 1/3 or less the cost of those other speakers.

I am a contractor (commercial GC) and I like to go to home shows. I see all of these home theaters that people think are great HT's and all of them suck compared to a system like I have been talking about. They are all show and no go. Most people have not heard a high performance system and do not have a clue. Best of all you will spend less money by not buying over priced audiophile speakers that just do not perform up the the same level. What good is an audiophile speaker that sounds great at 85db (12' away at LP) if it distorts, compresses or clips the peak at 95db at that 12' listening position. 12' is not an unreasonable distance either. You do not have to have that big a room to have a 12' listening distance. I agree that it would be fairly big if everybody observed the 1/3 into the room rule for listening position, but many people can't do that.

Will someone PLEASE do a review of the Pro-10s already? I've been anxiously waiting for them, when will they actually hit the streets?

Right, so there's more to it than Dynamics, sensitivity and uniform off axis response.


I certainly hope so.
The JTR HT8 is $1199 per speaker with wood finish, so 3 for a front is 3600$ + shipping which probably is quite a lot at >200 pounds.
The Seaton Sound Catalyst is $3500 each + shipping. For a total of >10,000$ + shipping
The Geddes Abbey 12 are $2400 for a pair of kits, so once again, 3600$ for 3.

So again, what does this have to do with 1100$ for 3 fronts of non-DIY, B&M or ID speakers?


So go for something other than a butt cheap amp. You know how loud is 105dB right? It's a couple feet away from lawnmower, power tools, motorcycle, truck, etc.

Like I said, speakers, especially in the budget price have compromises. Sierras aren't made to do 130dB but that's ok because they excel in other areas. Sure, if you take speakers costing 10 times more, they'll likely surpass the sound quality and play louder. But they cost ten times more. You can't have that at the price of Sierras.

I use to have your opinion, I was uneducated on what constant directivity means to the room and people listening anywhere in the room.

You have no clue what Constant directivity means and you have no idea that 45 degrees even > 60 degrees impacts the sound at your listening position.

Conclusion that response IS NOT unform off axis. The drop off at 45 degrees is substantial anD It will create an INACCURATE response in room, it also creates a BAD POWER response.

its all okay, 99.9% of all speaker owners do compromise based on many, many reasons. Even I understand compromises and can easily live with some like not currently having a center channel.

Proper HT speakers will have the following.

Uniform on and off axis response

- Sierras do not have that, you actually have to know how to read the chart!

Accurate playback

-only on axis are the Sierras accurate, sucks if some people have a life and have friends to enjoy movies with

ZERO amp Clipping, ZERO compression during peaks in movies

Good luck with that, the Sierras do not even get past 105dBs, I guess if you have a one room chicken shack that is only 6 feet deep then fine, they will work but 12 feet back > 20dB peaks MEANS compression. We have not even talked about the amp requirements...these are crap low sensitivity speakers!!


I can post numbers all day but I doubt they will sink in very much.

I am also not sure all that bold BS stuff was. We should be watching boring love stories in custom HT rooms....Yawn..those are for the normal family room. HT is ALL about the EXPERIENCE and we do not stick in "THE NOTEBOOK" for an experience

Not much more then that....there are many quality driver choices out there. Audiophiles just do not have any knowledge so they have bad references like crappy PA speakers from years ago....This has nothing to do with PA speakers.


I already posted that I agree there isnt many choices under the $1000. Yes, I was serious about the Tannoy V8s I picked up off ebay so I could redesign the XO. For HT performance (with specific requirements) they would beat some of the < $1K speakers bantered around. Constant Directivity and Sensitivity is THAT IMPORTANT to the best HT experience.


This sort of opinion is completely out of touch with discussion of PEAKS in movies.

First NO ONE is listening at 105dB at their listening position. 70dB SPL levels at the listening position WILL REQUIRE 105dB at 1 meter during peaks...do you understand that? 70dB isnt that loud is it and that is all the Sierras can do without compression and amp clipping.

How would they compare to the following?
-Kef Muon
-Wilson Maxx
-Wilson Sophia with Thor's Hammer
-JMLabs Utopia
-Cabasse La Sphere

Do I think the Sierras compare to the dynamics of these speakers? Of course! That's what I've been saying all along! The Sierras actually play louder and more clearly than all the above speakers. They are the best speakers in the world and only cost less than 1000$. [/sarcasm] Seriously, did I say anything like that? Remember that OP has a 1100$ budget.

I've heard all of the above, and although it can be impressive how dynamic the above can be, I don't think it's something required to have a good HT experience. For me, the quality of the movie is 100 times more important than the overkill of the HT system. Hell, you run a piece of **** movie on an amazing HT it's still a POS movie. Even with the sound effects...


lol Allow me to yawn at yet another napkin drawing that will revolutionize the audio world, now that Schifter is out of the picture you'd think we'd be past this kind of thing, but some are certainly willing to carry on the torch...

You mentioned me mentioning some cheap PA speakers. They use pro drivers. They use compression drivers, horns, they're highly sensitive. They cost less than 1000$ in some cases, they have tons of power handling. They should be the greatest speaker ever. I've never heard of the pro-10 either. We'll just have to see when it hits the shelves how good or how bad it is...

people can choose based on uneducated subjective feelings or they can learn what compromises exist and what makes the HT experience better.

Its 100% their choice. Im only posting what many experts (Ie. Toole, Geddes, etc) have been saying for years.

Hint.....a single 6.5 inch woofer is a complete CRAP choice if someone is trying to build a great HT room. It can not even remotely good keep up with any of the popular subs, its a mismatch plain and simple. Just not an educated choice when it comes down to it. Sorry!

Right now, you have about 3600 cubic feet to fill, with a possibility of a larger room later.

This is not an easy process, especially given your current system. If you ever want to just shoot the bull about this stuff, drop me a PM. There are a lot of good points being made by both the audiophile and pro-audio guys here, but for you to try to wade through it all is about impossible.

They all lack the proper design and performance needed for high end HT. They lack great off axis response and they would clip the amps and compress during the demand peaks in ALL movies.

People don't listen anywhere in the room in my case, they do it on the couch in the center of the room, right in front of the speakers.


I have a clue of what it means but like I said, I don't quite see the relevance when you're sitting in the sweet spot. Hence asked you to clarify.

I do that's why I have room treatment on both sides of the room and to a lesser extent in the back/front.


As opposed to accurate response? We're not talking about a cinema where dozens of people line up the floor from wall to wall. We're talking home HT where the number of listeners is usually limited to a few...


They don't sink because we're not talking absolute HT EXPERIENCE. We're talking 1100$ for 3 mains, as in, 366$ per speaker. We're not talking 3660$ per speaker nor 36600$ per speaker. Do you understand this? Can you fit that in your head? NO SPEAKER IN THE WORLD AT 366$ WILL HAVE PERFECT RESPONSE ANYWHERE IN THE ROOM WHILE BEING ABLE TO PERFECTLY REPRODUCE 130DB PEAKS WITH 0 COMPRESSION AND 0 DISTORTION.

Sure, you can talk about your 300$ DIY speakers which will blow away 30000$ speakers, just like I can talk about my 15000$ custom built car which will blow away Lambos and Ferraris while pulling a train, but hey, that's not the point, if someone is in the market of a car for 25000$ and wants to buy a car from a dealer, mentioning 10s quarter mile times and being able to pull a jumbo jet is rather pointless.

Why don't you show us the 366$ speaker which will do all you've describe? Oh wait, it doesn't exist? People/manufacturers haven't caught on yet? Well there you go, the other speakers similar to the ones you're hinting seem to start at 3000$+ cost of shipping. The others are PA which really don't sound so sweet. I'm all up for a theoretical 366$ speaker which does everything perfectly, but it doesn't exist...

Why does a Sierra use a single 5.5 inch? Compromise. It's not an ultimate speaker, it's like 400$ per speaker. The htr8 was what, 3500$ per speaker or something? Of course it's not perfect for HT, no other speaker is perfect for HT either anywhere near the price. But hey, it's got decent bass and you can run it without a sub. It's got sweet mids, highs, imaging, etc. There's a couple other speakers which also aren't that bad in the price, but it's pretty much at the top of the heap if you'd make a list of possible contenders, imho.

Nice spin, its not even part of the discussion....the facts still remains Sierras are not HT designs and do not handle even remotely high SPLs.

Listening position looks like it will be 12 feet back. The OP does not have even 250Watt amps. You guys are leading him on only because you are fans/owners of a brand of speakers. its not my fault few of you even know what clipping sounds like or what constant directivity sounds like (btw, I have a custom treated room too...Constant directivity matters in those, maybe someday you will figure this out!!) so Im not sure how you can even post an opinion unless you have tested them all.....

I would rather teach him all about the numbers then PROTECT/DEFEND any specific brand of speaker but that is just me, Im not a subjective audiophile clinging to old beliefs and Im not insecure about speakers I own

Nobody said anyone listened at 105dB at the listening position. But that was the magic number (100 dB) you threw around to show that the Sierras could not do HT. And as I illustrated the Sierras could reach it using two cheap 200$ amps. I know perfectly well the peaks. So basically, this means that in a 2 hour movie there might be a couple of sequences in the movie where Hulk freaks out and smashes stuff, you'll get some distortion and compression during these short moments. Oh whoopedy doo. lmao. During the other 1h55m of the movie, the Sierras will be perfectly adequate. During the bits where it compresses and distort, most listeners could never tell what they were missing and wouldn't miss a beat from the enjoyment of the movie.

I'd sure love to listen to those Tannoys 8, they must be fantastic a music reproduction and everything if they do HT so well. Makes you wonder how all of these audiophile speaker companies are going to survive... (again sarcasm, obviously)


You're hilarious. I asked you that earlier, you didn't answer:

What other ID or B&M speaker at 1100 (price paid by OP for 3 mains) would be better for HT in your opinion?

Does bold really help?

Im not here post favorite brands that is for the subjective fanboys to do. I will simply post guidelines on how to choose speakers for HT. I will post brands that meet those requirements, if I could post more I would but speaker designers are still stuck in the dark ages wrt proper HT designs.

I already posted twice that there are limited options at this price point. I guess I should have used triple sized bold letters like yourself to get that point accross but Im thinking that adults can keep calm and discuss anything, even disagreements. Without SHOUTING (Yes, your bold is shouting if you didnt know that).

I also posted that its all about compromises. If he does end up with the sierras he should know their performance parameters. He should know what his max SPL is at his listening distance and he should know what amps to get or when his amps will clip.

Again, Its simply about education. If he understand everything about Constant directivity, Dynamics and power response and still chooses the Sierras than cool. He understands the compromises and accepts them.

Obviously not because you never answer the question...

So basically, OP, go DIY, or spend > 4000$ for your 3 fronts, because anything else is crap and isn't adequate to do HT. You need to be able to hit 130dB and require constant directivity. Make sure to get at least 4-5 couches to fit all your friends in your HT, you probably have a life, since you're as cool and as popular as us...

That is pretty general group/desription, because that also fits many PA speakers. Can you be more specific?

Laff! So do these: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...ku=582083#used

High power handling? Check! 800w peaks!!!
high sensitivity? Check!
directivity? Check! "Ultra-wide dispersion, large-format exponential horn"
pro woofer: Check! "Extremely powerful 12" long-excursion driver provides incredibly deep bass and acoustic power." Can't be more pro than that!
All of them use some type of waveguide or horn: Check! "Ultra-wide dispersion, large-format exponential horn"
All of them use a compression driver for the high frequencies. Check! "State-of-the-art 1.75" titanium-diaphragm compression driver for exceptional high-frequency reproduction"

My god it fits in the category! Only 170$ WOW! So no need to wait for the other 1000$ speaker to get the 3000$ performance! Just order one of those!!!


Riiiight... So there you have it folks, these speakers are inadequate for HT. So come on, how can anybody could be looking into <1000$ for 3 HT speakers? Don't be ridiculous!!! If you had 3x Wilson Maxx, Sophias with the Thor sub, 3 JMLabs Utopias, or 3 Spheres from Cabasse, this would make an inadequate high end HT. The amps would clip, it would compress during the peaks in ALL movies, absolutely inadequate... Just so we're clear... Ascend Sierras... LOL

Btw, did you really hear any of the above speakers? How could you say that they would be inadequate for HT... That's really silly. You are aware that HT stands for Home Theater are you not? We're not talking about the largest cinema in the world...

he never asked that question, he asked "Ascend Sierras for HT on a 1100 budget...would you do it?? " and the logical answer is NO and I explained why they are not good choices at all. Lets not worry about logic, lets just scream the loudest.

btw, no one has ever posted anything about 130dB. Its simply math... its 25dB peaks @ 12 feet with listening levels @ 70dB...you do the math and tell me what the Sierras are doing @ 1M and how many Watts then need to have CLEAN peaks?

btw, People that have proper constant directivity/dynamics designs are not thinking "hmmm...I should go back to some wimpy audiophile speakers". You can have small woofers choking trying to keep up with good woofers and Domes distorting during peaks, Im not interested in that sort of compromise.

I can look at the designs and specs to tell what they will do and they have nothing REAL HT designs like Danley or JBLs. Price tag does not predict high end HT performance for those of us with a little education and experience on the topic

What is silly is that one of us is talking about real numbers and the other is throwing around audiophile spin and overpriced audiophile designs that are not exactly accurate designs. I wonder who the OP is learning from here?

Ah that's a nice skill to have... Looking at specs and design and being exactly able to tell what they will do... I wish I could do the same. Yeah, that beats actually listening to the speakers...


Damnit, you just destroyed all my arguments with that one sentence. And there I was saying that because a speaker has an expensive price tag it would predict high end HT performance...

You know what, when I listened to the above speakers, and recognized that some of them had great dynamics for example, I was just fooled by the price tag... Yeah, nothing to do with it, with just 300$ and DIY, you can beat those easily... All it takes is a little education and experience on the topic.


I know, I just listed impressive speakers and you shot me down by saying they would not be adequate for HT, unlike your 300$ DIY speakers. For sure he's going to learn from you! All you need is a table saw, 50$ of wood, some glue, 50$ for crossover components, and some spare change for drivers and you're in business, adequate HT performance for a fraction of the price of high end speakers. High end speakers will have nothing on your 300$ project!

In terms of constant directivity and having clean SPL for 125dB peaks, yes those speakers you listed do not make the grade of what requirements I need. The design specs tell me that.....listening wouldnt matter.

And know its not $300 DIY speakers. I buy individual drivers that are more expensive then $300 alone!!

Are you done with the OT....We both answered the OPs question. I gave valid data to back up my opinon and you screamed your opinion without ANY data on why the Sierras are any good for HT, nothing, not one fact supporting them as great HT speakers. He can decide what opinion really matters.

The off-axis FR curve and constant directivity would matter little as well, as you could not really differentiate between peaks and valleys at those levels unless your room was extremely well treated(and done right), otherwise there will be crazy resonances and reflections.

You guys promoting reference level listening, which most people do not do, keep leaving that piece out.

Who said anything about the Sierras being great HT speakers besides you? OP had a budget, 1100$, to purchase three fronts. He purchased Sierras. You're the one who spouts ridiculous statements such as 3x JMLabs Utopias Be would not make a great HT and then wave the 125dB for peaks wave to illustrate your point.

How about this to support that the Sierras are "any good" for HT: I've been using them for years now for that duty and am fully satisfied. Same for hundreds of other owners... Of course, that doesn't fit into your "great HT" criteria because they can't hit 125dB and I don't know what else criteria you have, but hey, absolutely nobody I know, or I've heard of on any internet forum, is as anal about HT as you are. I'm sure you must have broken some record. You're the first one I've ever heard who would go, "3 Utopias for HT? Meh... That wouldn't be great... Wouldn't make a great HT. I'm looking at their specs and design, that wouldn't be a great HT. Would clip the amp for any movie, don't have uniform off axis response, wouldn't make a great HT...". Seriously, what's the percentage of listeners who would agree with what makes a 'great' HT and good HT speakers? Not a lot. You made fun of audiophile speakers (which I agree the price of those speakers is absolutely ridiculous), but you've ridiculed yourself with your definition of a great HT... You're not any better than an audiofool who would say that anything less than [insert ridiculous speaker] wouldn't make for a good/great sound system.

cschang: I've never promoted reference level, quite the contrary. Exactly one of my reasons why speakers like the Sierra can work in HT settings... [edit: read that wrong... Thought you accused me of doing so lol]

Sure you can. I suggested a speaker that costs less than the Sierras, not more. I just listed the other speakers as speaker type that makes for a great HT speaker. I listed them the second time because I was asked what they have in common with the Pro-10's. You are arguing from one side. I have been on both sides (audiophile speakers and speakers designed using pro drivers). As I said I have two systems. One system uses speakers that are of higher quality than the 340-SE's powered by an Onkyo 805. The other system uses JTR's powered by pro amps. The HT that uses the RBH speakers is a good sounding system. Most people think it is fantastic. It impresses everyone that listens to it, but they are floored when they listen to the JTR's. As I said go listen to a good system that uses any of the speakers that I listed above and then come back and argue.

Added
My brother has some nice audiophile speakers in his system. He uses Meridian DSP6000's. Nice $20,000/pr. MSRP speakers. He loves his speakers, but even he admits that the JTR's provide a better HT experience and he has never heard my system played very loud so it does not have anything to do with volume.

In regards to your RBH's....I can tell you that the 340SE's are at least comparable in the performance department....but that's off topic.

No. Pay attention this time. I suggested that he buy a speaker that is cheaper than the Sierras. One that will perform better than the Sierras at his 10' listening distance. Penn is correct when he said the Tannoy V8 would be a better choice for HT than the Sierras and you laughing about the Tannoy's not going down to 40hz just showed how little you know. 70 to 100hz should be subwoofer territory. Your speakers just need an f3 point below your subs crossover. Before you come back and talk about a sub being localized above 80hz. The higher crossover points are for those that use multiple subs. I use 100hz in my system. A sub in each corner. Not because the JTR's do not have good output at 80hz. I do it because the sealed subs have better output up to 100hz. With a sub by each main and by each surround (5.1) localization is not a problem for me.

I said earlier that they were very similar. Not arguing that point, but I think most audiophile experts rank the RBH 661-SE as a better speaker since RBH custom makes their own drivers. Where do the drivers come from in the 340-SE's?