DIY alternative to a Black Diamond II screen ?

do a search on silver fire.

Much Mo' Bedder! SILVER FIRE can be adjusted to many varied shades of Gray to accommodate the level of ambient light rejection required, yet maintain the maximum level of brightness at any given level of ambient light. Balancing the PJ's lumen output with the degree of ambient light present...and the shade of Gray chosen is the combination matching that is required.

As to SF performing to the level/extent of the BD Screen, all of the above criteria comes into play. All the same advantages...and restrictions apply. If you have a LARGE Screen, you need sufficent Lumens and a optimal Throw distance to acheive the best results

I have been reading the BD II thread and have commented to that thread before about some of the hocus pocus they employ in their demos. I was actually ready to comment again and found myself agreeing with MM in most of his points (scary huh) ok humor is still allowed here last I checked.

Now back to snarks question: 99% of what goes on here in DIY deals with screens homemade that function mostly as an angular reflective screen. There have been attempts at retro reflective screens and also selective color pigmented screens with the attempt in all cases being to allow projected light the upper hand over ambient light, be it external light or rebounding projected light. I believe everyone here will agree all the DIY offerings here from simple neutral grays up to metallic enhanced paints still work as angular reflective in nature. We DIY do have the ability to control gain somewhat within the above methods.

For many the ability to darken the screen while keeping it neutral in its reflective properties and then adding some gain by reducing the viewing cone have produced great screen surfaces that work very well with and without ambient light. The advent of brighter projectors that maintain good CR has even helped the DIYer more.

IMHO as I have said hundreds of time Lumens is the key to ambient light. Lumens as important as they are can't help with black, black requires no lumens. So how lumens have to work is by them being attenuated into a neutral gray screen. that same property also attenuates some of the ambient light, and the result is not improved CR but rather preserved CR. Add to that in a overall brighter room the eyes perception of contrast changes, and the end result is a image we perceive as greater contrast. Most viewing done in a sports bar like room is of a higher ANSI like contrast normally and that further improves the perception.

In conjunction with Gray we control surface sheen and sometimes add metallic both of these compress the viewing cone thus boasting the effective lumens / foot lamberts.

The BD II demos show these amazing comparisons when they drop the BD II down in front of a white screen. what they don't tell you is that the calibration was all set up for the dark screen and the white screen was being way over driven, etc etc.

I have been tempted to shoot a similar video between a white screen being retracted revealing my gray screen being hit with 2000 lumen. But it would be meaningless actually as each requires a different calibration for brightness.

If there is one thing a DIY can do that no commercial screen can, and that's the ability to be tuned exactly to the limits of your projector, room and screen size. The drawback is its not as simple as buying and hanging a screen, there is some thought and experimentation that goes into DIY. One plus to DIY even if you someday move on to a store bought screen is I believe the process is a educational one and helps you know what it is you want in a commercial screen.

I can post ambient light screen shots but I have nothing comparing to the BD II.

Do you have any screenshots with ambient light directly comparing silver fire to white and/or gray screen like this shot (using a Dynaclear)?




I've just yet to see any DIY example come close to that and no one ever shows a comparison like this. The closest I've seen to this is my Silver PVC. People need to do more shots like this for reference.

Look here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...401&highlight=

I'll dredge up what else I can, but really, it became a point for anyone using a Gray Screen to NOT make comparisons against White surfaces because the scales were simply to off balance.

Thanks. Interesting. Your shots are good and look to be a 20-40% improvement.

The shot above, however, shows the white section having a completely unusable and barely even noticeable image at what looks to be over 140" diagonal and the 80" Dynaclear piece simply TRUMPS it in brightness, contrast, color saturation MANY times over! It's just in another league than any DIY ambient light screen that I've ever seen...even better than my SPVC from what I see above.

If 4 pieces of Dynaclear can be put together without a seam and without a hot spot it would be an amazing ambient light screen. I'm hoping Local Zone succeeds with the project I wanted to do last year.

The question still is, you have two wildly different screens being projected to by the same projector. Was the projectors gray scale calibration done to the Dynaclear sample?

If it was done to the white sample we might be saying Wow look how good the image looks on the white screen, and how the Dynaclear mutes everything to almost black.

It is impossible to compare apples to oranges in this manner within the same frame of a photo or for that matter by eye. Beyond the calibration issue there is the perception issue also. The iris in your eye is viewing at a completely different f-stop because of the mixed brightness in the image, a dig cam likewise mimics the eye and does a average exposure in this case. Photos and eyes both capture perceived CR.

Member Tiddler did a lot of testing a year or so ago using specially designed projected images that allowed blocks of pure white to be included in the image and fall on calibrated gray scale samples and color charts along with capturing split screens of different samples so we could try and factor in the effects of projector calibration etc.

Once again CR can not be improved by any screen that's not coming from the projector. The direction of the ambient striking the screen different from the direction of the projected light plays a huge role. In the case of angular reflective screens the light will skip more off the surface at an opposite angle it arrives at. In a retro reflective screen it will want to return to the source. In the photo it shows a bright ambient source above, so a diffusive white surface would send the ambient toward the viewer. Where the Dynaclear is working in some other manner. Its reported the Dynaclear has a narrow viewing cone so once again it's a apples to oranges comparison as the white is a unknown and in most cases no one is going to have a light source above the screen. The testing Tiddler did with ambient was to be fair used a more normal ambient light source and placed it near the projector. It's all very subjective as to what you are trying to show or highlight.

And I am in no way saying any commercial is not good, I just think if they are to be tested against each other or a DIY sample the test should be fair as possible.

Well let me give you a reality check.

1. The material will not be able to be put together to where it shows no seam. That would require not just a virtually perfect union, but a "perfect' one. Anything less and the junction line will be visible due to the nature of the retro-reflectivity properties of the surface, as well as the loss of such at each of the adjoining edges.

2.You've bought into the visual hype that any such screen presents, Much like a High Power, if your seating is confined to within a 30 degree arc from center, so you situated directly in front of the Screen....it works. Big deal....other screens have presented similar performance, and in this case both gain and the darkness of the layered material are the factors.

But step just 15 degrees off center and.........

3. For any screen as large as you desire, the method employed by the BD is not feasible. That should be evident by virtue of the fact that they do not make the surface larger than 80". Once again, viewing angle is the factor, and is also joined by the screens lack of brightness at the edges due to it making any difference in the projector's uniformity of projected brightness from the center to the edges quite obvious.

DIY applications are intended to be much more flexible. If you want similar performance, such as overt brightness, spark-lies to the excess, a grossly limited viewing cone....we can oblige. A surface sprayed uniformly with a dark gray, heavily imbued with silver/pearlesecent/poly mix, or one with a excessive amount of aluminum...also sprayed uniformly, and wonder of wonders.... and there is would be. Right along with all the caveats Local Zone is dealing with. At least you wouldn't have to deal with those seams.....

It's just that we are not inclined to develop such limited, restrictive, and singularly oriented designs.

No....we are better than that.

Simply put, we DIY'ers all want and desire things we really have no way of obtaining.
Ultra Fast cars under $1000... drop dead gorgeous women (or men) who expect no special treatment...luxury homes at shotgun shack prices...bodies that don't show the signs of excessive living. And mostly, DIY screens that cost virtually nothing, and perform miracles of physics.

All the above demand some degree of sacrificing one thing to get another. To my/our way of thinking, it's better to have reasonable expectations, and achieve them as obtainable goals, than to squander our efforts on trying achieve what even the Mfg have no way of accomplishing.

But in reality, we come awfully damn close, and in the case of larger screens, I'm stating we EXCEED what Mfg can offer, and we do it at ridiculously lower price points.

Now, quit dreaming and determine what it is you actually need. I seriously doubt you'll ever watch any content under full, direct lighting, nor limit yourself to sitting dead center in front of a picayune 80" screen. Instead. consider that those 3 year old examples shown are done in extremely high light levels, some are taken at a viewing angle FAR in excess of what Local Zone or any demo example of a BD screen has ever shown, and that the White screen is in fact a White Light Fusion (painted mirror) and it's doing a not so bad job showing a image under some pretty intense lighting.

The Gray panel is just Silver Fire painted on white hardboard, done solely to illustrate a point.

So let's see what real world stuff can be accomplished.

A collection of various Gray test panels.



Examples were shot in 75% room lighting Be sure to note that these are metallic and non-metallic Grays being compared to a metallic Gray...in this case the underlying 135" screen is a early Black Widow example











Here is a Silver Fire 2.0 (N8.5) screen being compared to a white panel, and the same tes panels as seen above in the previous shots.

First, the Screen in ambient light all by itself.



A bright TV image is the easiest to get by with of course. The comparisons below are all "dark" movies.

First...the panels in high ambient...as in really high ambient light.



Now with a image.



A very telling shot of Black Space,



These next ones show the panels under ambient in the large image, and ambient on the left smaller image...while in the dark on the right smaller image.





Night Sky Fireworks in high ambient light....



..and in a dark room setting.....



Now following up, here's a 135" Silver Fire 6.0 screen w/Optoma EW1610 pj



Just take a look at this shot taken with both large Globe lamps fully lit, and just 6' directly in front of the screen.



This next shot (...taken in the dark) shows how very little drop off in brightness this DIY screen has. At the angle shown, the Black Diamond would be absolutely unwatchable, even in the Dark.



This last one is taken in the degree of ambient light the screen is normally watched in, with the most forward of the Globe lights turned off. Even taken from over 70' away, and with 12 huge lights between the camera and the Screen, please note the Screen's brightness actually overdrives the Camera's meter because it's directly opposed areas are so much darker, yet the ambiet light ahead of the Screen isn't affecting the screen's performance enough to matter, let alone offset that effect. But a close observation shows the Room's lighting is definitely illuminating the room's surfaces all around the Screen.



Now then...you go looking for ANY promotional shots of the Black Diamond screen being shown under anything remotely like the images shown here. It will be a fruitless effort, lemmie tell ya!

After you return with no fruit in hand, we'll get you hooked up with a meal with some "real world" meaty fare to chew on.

Hi.


I didn't do any kind of calibration at all.


The white on Dynaclear is more brighter than on Normal Inkjet Printer Paper.
But it's closer to silver or if the small part of that texture can looks white, the other part that having sagging or angler issue looks like silver. It's very far from stable white white.
And the angle that I can see that white is very narrow and the white turns to silver soon if I am just a little bit out of range.
So the Scene having white in picture looks awful. And this is the biggest problem.



That's definitely right at all and just what I've wanted to explain.
It's just more like directly lighting than ambient light. And I thought that is what MTyson wants(I've seen MTyson's screen shots and I've just simulated that). If the light at far side from screen turns on, it will be not that different any more.
Sorry for confusing MTyson and all.

I was just looking for material or painting that can be displayed so deep black in my room light off. If there is another good material or painting, I'll change my plan.

Local Zone,


It would seem all to obvious that along with the "good" comes so much to be "less than content with".

This then is what I've said over several venues for some time about the "advanced screen technology" that uses such hype and often misleading visuals to prompt people to purchase.

First off, I can think of no reason anyone would ever spend for a SD or Sony ClearView screen if they simply were looking for excellent Black levels. Those apps were solely intended to improve worse case scenarios of high light conditions...and even then compromises that exceed those most are will to make ensue.

DIY can....and does offer excellent choices that deepen black levels "as seen on screen"...work to defray the ill effects of ambient light...and does such without turning White into Gray disproportionatly enough for one to notice a "dulling effect".

If improving the visual quality of Blacks while maintaining excellent Whites in a Dark Room setting...and on a huge surface is your desire, you need to do is to create a smooth, featureless substrate without seams in the size dimensions you desire, and paint the surface with a prescribed DIY paint solution that is specifically intended...AND proven to get the job done at extremely large sizes and lumen outputs.

That would be S-I-L-V-E-R. A VERY SIMPLE MIX THAT IS SPRAYED ONTO ANY SMOOTH, BRIGHT WHITE SURFACE. (oops...a "silver" Cap attack...)

Look all you want, you'll not find another application capable of delivering 16 FOOT x 9 FOOT images like those shown below using just 700 lumens.



While S-I-L-V-E-R is not to be considered a great performer in ambient light due to it's incredible "controlled" reflectivity, it does have potential "watch-ability" if the light is not directed onto the screen's surface.

In the following images, Spots that exist directly over and in front of the screen's surface (...for lighting effects as seen in the next image below...) are turned on...and you can see the result. Of course no one would want to watch such...but the illustration shows how well S-I-L-V-E-R can recover decent black levels if light interference is muted or absolved.

(Room fully lit for taking "House for sale" shots.)







Same image as directly above but with no lights.....



You can get results like this from off of painted Gypsium board (Dry Wall)

In these last shot the overhead Spots are turned way down and you can see just how well the Screen recovers dynamics and Black levels. Look closely at Megan's rear end and her forearm and you can barely see a bit of discoloration from the small amount of "directed" spot lighting. T'ain't bad though......




If your interested I'll be glad to assist you in acquiring the two items you need to duplicate what you see above. You need but ask...and to simply decide to accomplish what you've set out to do.

.....and that goes for you too, MTyson.

Link please, to this "simple mix".

For some reason I get no results trying to search for this S-I-L-V-E-R.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22S-I-L-V-E-R%...3Aavsforum.com

Second link from the bottom.

Is this right (it's from 2006!)???

I do ya better than that............,

Purchase the Following:

1 Gallon Faux Glaze (Behr) *@ Home Depot*
1- 8 oz bottle of Delta Silver Metallic *@ Michaels arts & Crafts*
1- 16 oz bottle of Filtered Water





First, hand stir the Glaze, scraping the Bottom to distribute the settled Glaze.

Then, remove about about 16 oz of glaze and introduce the 8 oz of Metallic Silver and 8 oz water as you are stirring the Glaze at slow speed using this tool.

The Squirrel Cage "Turbine" Mixer:
(Gallon and Quart size shown, however the Gallon size disassembles into a "Quart Sized" Turbine.)



Stir slowly but thoroughly...........



The Mix should be thin enough to run off the Mixing Tool like thin soup, as seen in the Video. If not, add more water and stir well until you get the desired thinness.

As for spray application instructions, (...and it MUST be sprayed...) PM me for those as this is taking this Thread "Off Topic" because S-I-L-V-E-R is not specifically intended to be a ambient light screen.

The Behr SM is no longer available, and was replaced by mme prior to that because the Delta variety is more refined and contains less "Black Mica" in it.

I did undershoot the amount of water needed though. The mix above was formulated to be able to be mixed / held in a 1 gallon bucket. To do up a Glallon -plus- amount, obviously you'd need a 1.5 gallon Tub or larger.

Or.....

96 oz Behr Faux Glaze
24 oz Water
8 oz Delta SM

Stir Glaze, remove one quart, add Water and Silver Metallic...either stir with Squirrel Cage mixer or take fully loaded gallon can back to HD and beg them to shake it for you. "Stirring" (slowly) is better though...less chance of Bubbles forming...less groveling.

This S-I-L-V-E-R mix is considered to be of a higher Gain and smoother grain than the original, and is the del facto standard all S-I-L-V-E-R screens are made up of these days.

CMRA? Where are those Screen Shots of the 10' wide S-I-L-V-E-R Sintra I just painted up for you?

Got it, thanks.

I may actually be interested in your assistance. What items do I need to do what I see above? I am wanting to go large. I just got an Optoma H79 and now am looking into replacing it with a a JVC RS1 Pro, possibly. My current screen is 8 feet wide, but if I go JVC I may be looking at doing about 140" wide.

Beyond the shown components, a applicable HVLP spraying system (Wagner Control Spray DD or Plus) and a suitable smooth white substrate.

I've done S-I-L-V-E-R on enameled and plastic/paper/melamine laminated white surfaces, as well as on white primed Drywall and Wood (avoid the latter)

Success is measured by how smooth the initial surface is, how 'white" is is, and how effectively you spray on the 7-8 coats.

Nothing about the spraying itself is at all difficult, it's only a matter of the repetition of the correct spraying procedure x the 7-8 applications, and the patience to wait the required dry times over the last 3-4 coats, which take longer to dry than the first 3-4.

What material would you recommend to paint on? Gatorboard?

If you can acquire it in the size you want / need...absolutely.

Where can I get it at that size? If I can't get that size what other material can be used? I'm open to materials that can be curved as well. Not sure if I'll be going curved or not yet.

Dear MississippiMan,

I thank you for your posts and need you opinion on the following.
I am setting up my first Media room. Best Buy geek squad suggested to get a 100" screen for media room which is colored dark(maroonish) by builder. I am planning to get the following projector

Mitsubishi HC 6800 (2010) projector (Brightness: 1500 ANSI Lumens) Resolution: 1920 x 1080

Screen : SCREEN INNOVATIONS 100" SCREEN LUNAR GRAY $1,599.99 (suggested by Best Buy).

Is to possible to build my own screen better that this at cheaper price? I am very new and just learning. Please suggest. if possible I would love to make one myself with some help.

best
SP

The Geeks got to ya, eh? That could be bad...or it might not be bad at all because you can use the info and suggestions they provide as a learning experience by which to judge other information by.


Well Ok. The 6800 is a nice unit, and with Power Zoom & Focus AND Lens Shift... it's easy to adjust, and certainly makes having a 2.40:1 / 16:9 Combo Screen a distinct possibility. If you can grab it for anything "significantly" under $2K it's a strong consideration.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/onli...price_id=40288


Well Kiss your Sister and pay for the privilege.....that's all I can say about that! DIY-wise you can build a monstrous 155" diagonal (143" x 60") Constant Image height 2.40:1 Screen that can also act as a 122" diagonal 16:9 screen (107" x 60") needing only a small amount of Side masking Curtain treatment. But bear in mind that at the biggest size (2.40:1) you'd need to have a Screen that not only improves perceived contrast, it must also retain a gain factor of at least 1.4, as well as keep your Throw distance to the absolute minimum (16')

But above all else, your NOT gonna spend anything more that 1/8th that amount for a excellent DIY Screen....including your Paint and Spray Gun.

All that means some degree of adjustment to your thinking is in order...but above all else I would NOT settle for too small a Screen. The advice you were given is not "bad", just heavily loaded in favor of the Seller by thier suggesting a Uber-Good PJ and selecting a smallish screen, all of which to assure that the image would be ultra tight, and visually punchy and bright. (...which it would be indeed!)

You have open options...choose (..or be directed..) wisely and your gonna be a very happy camper.


All things are possible with any degree of determination and the required effort. Some things might be iffy depending upon skill, available equipment, and such...but if your looking at a $1599.99 + Tax budget for a Screen, Brother...there's a WHOLE LOT of lee way there to work with!

So...let's make something great happen, OK?

Just like me. In Germany there's also a new darkgray screen out called 'blackscreen' developed by cinema4home.de with a Munsell gray of around N2.5 and a gain of 0.3...
They also got a youtube video but I can't post the link to it yet. There is a link to it on their website or search on youtube for blackscreen...

Some background on my planned setup:
-will buy Acer P1100 (2600 Lumen, Eco 2080, Contrast 4000:1, DLP) (yeah I know it's not the best for HT but it's cheap and I need it for business presentations, too. 10yrs ago in university we watched movies with much worse pjs...)
-Distance to screen 3.6 meters, screen size max 88'' (179x135 cm)
-Living room with much ambient light (large north window), white walls and ceiling
-Screen material will be coated HDF 5mm board or uncoated MDF 10 mm board.

The calculator (hcinema.de) shows me for the Acer P1100 and a 88'' screen with 1.0 gain:
Lux:1070 Lux
max room lights : 214 lux
candela per m2: 339 cd/m2
foot lamberts: 99 fL (way too much even when on eco)

for a 0.3 gain screen:
Lux: 321 Lux
max Room: 64 lux
Candela: 103 cd/m2
foot Lambert: 30 fL (almost like a CRT TV, eco mode should still be possible)

I looked at the Caparol neutral grays:
-3d granit 5 (L30 C00 H000) approx. N2 with 0.06 gain
-3d granit 15 (L45 C00 H000) approx. N3 with 0.15 gain
(N levels guessed compared with the colors a NCS to RGB calculator shows)

I also looked into mixing the neutralgray myself and came up with two grays in the reach of a backlit LCD showing black (N3.5) and a CRT Trinitron TV showing black (N 2.5-4 depending on how much white is in the picture):
Neutralgray approx Munsell N3.0 (CMYK=70,70,70,0; RGB=76,76,76)
Neutralgray approx Munsell N2.5 (CMYK=75,75,75,0; RGB=64,64,64)

(CMY without K because that's how grays are defined when doing designs for printmedia, the gray must only come from the 3 basic colors. That's the silver fire approach with mixing the basic colors to gray)

The problem with this approach is that even professional printers need to raise the M level to match a perfect neutral gray according to the manufacturer of the paints. The basic colors from marabu i.e. which are widely available need another mixture than the colors of another manufacturer. So this approach is something for someone who got a spectrometer or get's the exact colors from the excact manufacturer for a mix that was spectrogrammed.

So here is what I'm thinking about, please correct me if I'm mistaken

Solution A:
BW with AAA fine but with a darker base color
According to the NCS color code bermuda beige is NCS S0907-y70r, the first two numbers are for the blacklevel so a NCS 7507-y70r (RGB: 4D413C) 4:1 BW mix with this should result in a N2.5-3.5 Munsell neutral gray (depending on how the AAA fine influences the gray level in such a dark base color)

Solution B:
BW with AAA fine standard base color and a N2.5 neutralgray in a 2:1:2 mix
This would be 2 parts bermuda beige + 1 part AAA fine + NCS 7500 N until you like the gray (1-2 parts). The problem with this mix should be, the more neutral gray you add the more the spectrum will suffer. The result should be a slighty off neutralgray.

Solution C:
The same like Solution A but in a 3:1 mix (or even 2:1) to enhance the gain.
The NCS S7507-Y70R mix contains much black and will practically 'eat light', so to bring back the gain level up to around 0.3 more AAA fine should be needed. There are some BW 3:1 mixes out there so I'm not sure if adding more AAA fine won't mess up the result. The spectrum shouldn't suffer IMHO by adding more than 3:1 AAA fine.

Has anyone tried a BW N3 yet? I've also read the Elektra approach, but there are too many colors being added, so I'd prefer one of the above BW solutions to keep it simple and easy to rebuild by others all over the world, where specific paint brands might not be available.

Best regards!
Darker_plz

ps:
Should I use flat Latexpaint as base or flat enamel (both waterbased of course)

So which diy mix is better for dealing with ambient light. S-i-l-v-e-r or Silver Fire. My projector is going to be the jvc rs40 with 1300 lumens .

Easily Silver Fire. 1300 "JVC" lumens combined with a 50K on-off CR can drive into quite a bit of existing ambient light if the Screen isn't too big or lighting ill situated.

The question is, how bad/good is your lighting situation as relates to desired screen size??? Taking a 120" size screen painted with SF 2.0 and hitting it with the ES40 from within 15% of the PJs closest allowable throw would be flat out incredible. 110" diagonal w. SF3.0 and the same placement considerations would allow for even more higher a average amount of existing room light.

Any size at / under 100" and with SF4.0 and you have in essence a 100" Plasma or LED display that shows an excellent image in anything short of directed Incandescent/Florescent or unfiltered Sunlight.

The RS40 falls behind a very few other 1080p LCD/DLP PJs sporting 2000 or more Lumens as far as sheer brightness....but that's about all it gives up.

S-I-L-V-E-R (type it right!) is a paint best considered for Controlled Lighting locations such as a dedicated Theater. While it can perform quite well under well placed lighting with a PJ such as the RS40, it's not at it's best under Ambient Light...(and really, what is?) giving way to incoming light far more readily than a Darker Gray reflective solution such as Silver Fire (...easier to type too!)

If you went with a 122" diagonal 16:9 Screen , consisting of a piece of Sintra cut to 108" x 60", had to buy all the paint components...the Trim & Black Velvet...and a Sprayer plus all materials, you might be put all of $250.00.

You gotta make a choice based on everything, so don't forget about saving $2000.00

So will adding a acrylic mirror to the silver fire 3.0 make a good screen ? i just price a 54x96 sheet of 1/8 acrylic mirror for $ 180.00. Or will the sintra board with silver fire 3.0 be good for my projector selection. Oh by the way , the sintra board for a 5'x10' piece will cost me only $55 and they will cut it for me for free to the specific size .