The **Official** Denon 3311CI/ 991 Owner's Thread NO PRICE TALK - Page 13

Plus they extended their "Name Your Price" til July 7.

The amp in the 3808 is probably better than the one in the 3311. The 3311 is a lot lighter in weight and is made in China whereas the 3808 was made in Japan. Personally, I'd keep the 3808, unless I planned to get a 3D tv.

If you do go with the 3311, it would be great to hear your opinions on how the two compare, sound-wise.

No I haven't set up the Audyssey yet. I have 802N's..

Djoel

edit: Works like a charm...


Djoel

It may also be revealing that Denon does not specify the performance of their digital audio section for 2310/2311 models (and down, I guess), but does for 3310/3311 (and up, I guess).

I don't have my 3311 yet (arriving Tuesday) but I was talking it up at work and a friend of mine who owns an older Denon was inspired by our conversation to run Audyssey (he had never run it). He asked me a question I can't answer, and it may pertain to me as well.

Both he and I are running a 4.1 setup (no center channel speaker). He said after Audyssey finished, his center volume was too low, and he could not find a way to turn it up. Apparently the adjustments are by speaker, and not by channel, and no center speaker means no center channel adjustment. He tried turning the mains up, but that did not help (probably made it worse). I believe my Yamaha shows the center as "phantom" and it is still adjustable.

So, any advice on how to turn up the center channel when it is being played by the main speakers? Please don't say "buy a center channel" as your advice. LOL

I have tested a few center channel speakers, and my system sounds better without one unless I get one larger than what I have space for. Plus my large Klipsch KG 5.5's are tall enough to make the center channel seem to come from the center of my screen, whereas adding a center speaker sounds like it's from above or below.

Hmm, this pertains to me as well. I haven't received mine yet either, but I'm going to start with a 2.0 or 2.1 setup which means I'll have a phantom center for a little while. I actually prefer phantom centers as center speaker placement is hard and many times systems just sound better without one.

Pretty sure you can't. The adjustments are by physical speaker that Audyssey detects. But with Dynamic EQ I don't think you'll have a problem. If I matrix down to 2.1 dialog still sounds fine.

Sorry, but as noted above, when there is no "physical" center speaker connected to the center speaker posts, then there is no individual center channel adjustment as you can do with the other channels. This is also the case with the sub when someone has powered subs in their main speakers, but chooses not to connect the LFE cable to them. The Denon wouldn't detect a separate sub, so there would be no sub channel adjustment. After running AUTO SETUP, you can use the Dyn EQ Reference Level Offset setting to either 10 or 15 which may help to improve the dialog quality.

thanks, that was exactly my question as I'm planning on getting the 1611 or 2011 denon player, I don care much about the 3d as long as the new denon players that are 1.4 can still pass the audio thru hdmi to the 3808.

i love my 3808 and had read batpig setup guide countless of times and got it just the way i want it with my energy speakers, once again thanks.

Thanks for the quick replies. This surprises/disappoints me. Just based on the replies here, it seems opting for no center speaker is pretty common. I would think for such highly configurable units this is a major oversight. But since Denon has been making Audyssey receivers for a long time, I suppose it would be unrealistic to hope that they'll ever add this feature (via firmware update).

I don't expect to have a problem, as I did not have to turn up my phantom center on my current setup, but then again, neither did my friend until AFTER he ran Audyssey. I assume that means his taste is just above reference for the center, but still, he should be able to have his preference and still retain the benefits of Audyssey (and he did say his surrounds and sub sounded way better, especially at lower volumes).

Actually, it's not. In fact when movies/TV is the primary use for the AVR, the center channel is the most important part of the setup as that's where 85% of the dialog is directed. We rarely hear about folks not running with a center channel unless music listening is the primary use of the AVR.

I've had the AVR-3311CI for a few days now, it has replaced my workhorse AVR-3801 that has been going strong and still is for 9 years now. I'm amazed at how much heavier the 3801 is compared to the 3311. I'm using the AVR-3311CI with several display units-Sharp 32" 1080p LCD, JVC DLA-RS1 front projector, and a Sony VPL-VW100 front projector. I've been viewing several movies with the AVR-3311CI routing the signal from my SA8300HD to the RS1 via HDMI. I have the i/p scaler function turned off for now since I want to gauge if the signal is being passed through untouched. So far it looks pretty darn good, I can't complain about the pass through feature at this point if you're using the HDMI inputs and outputs of the 3311CI. I did attempt to see how well the component switching capabilities were and sad to report that it seems there is some sort of veiling going on here. The component signal looks noticeably worse going through the 3311CI. I observed this sending the component feed from the SA8300HD at 1080i to the Denon 3311CI and then routing the component monitor output to my Sharp 1080p LCD. In this configuration I could tell instantly that the signal did not look as good. I then patched the component out of the SA8300HD directly to the Sharp LCD and the image quality was noticeably better. So I'm not going to be using the component switching capabilities of the 3311CI. With regards to HDMI I think it will serve as a fine HDMI pass through switch. I tried the i/p scaler on HDMI setting it to output 1080p24 to the RS1 and it was brief since I noticed picture tearing and stuttering so I kept the i/p scaler turned off for HDMI. I have a DVP-602CI which is a video processor from Denon that is powered by the Realta chip and I've really enjoyed watching 1080p24 content on this setup. It is really amazing what the DVP-602CI can do. So I'll probably just use the 3311CI to switch my HDMI sources and then let the DVP-602CI do the scaling and routing to my projectors and Sharp LCD. Suffice it to say that the ABT scaling in the 3311 is no match for the Realta in the DVP-602CI.

The other thought is to let the DVP-602CI do all the switching and scaling, there are two HDMI outputs on the 602CI that are active / active so I could send one of these to my projector and then the other can go to the 3311CI for audio. I'm waiting for a shipment of HDMI cables to do some more testing and optimization.

As for the audio qualities of the 3311CI, I really like Audussey and I have no complaints so far but I haven't done any dedicated listening since patching it in.

After much time spent watching component HD video switched via the AVR-3311CI my initial comments may have been too harsh, I think most will be more than happy with component HD video being passed through the 3311. I think the issue with the veiling comments above may have been exacerbated by inherent noise or film grain in the original source. In any case I have no problems with using the AVR-3311CI in a pass-thru mode for both HDMI and component HD video.

Poor center channel integration is one of the reasons for an upgrade to Audyssey for me, hoping it will help in this regard. So maybe, with Audyssey, my system will sound better with the center than without.

OK, I tried it out and I definitely hear what you are talking about. I don't have headphones but I just did a Stereo downmix.... sitting on the menu in the PS3 (e.g. multich IN with idle audio) and the volume cranked to "0", I can hear a faint "buzz" that gets audibly louder when toggling to Stereo mode.

However, mine is not nearly as loud/objectionable as what you seem to be hearing... I'm not sure if there is something weird that Audyssey picked up or some fundamental difference in our rooms (e.g. maybe more ambient noise in my living room raising the noise floor) but, in Stereo mode with MultEQ + Dyn EQ enabled, I have to be like 2-3 feet away from the front speaker to hear it at volume = 0. When the volume drops to -5 I have to strain to hear it (e.g getting within a few inches) and by -10 it is totally gone.

In MultiCH IN mode, I can hear it faintly at 0 but it is basically gone by -5.

What I noted in my brief tests:

- Dyn EQ surprisingly did NOT have much effect... interestingly, when I engaged Dyn EQ with MultiCH IN (i.e. no downmix) the noise get SOFTER in volume!
- turning MultEQ on/off however did have a big effect on the audibility of the "buzz"
- going from regular MultiCH IN (multEQ off) to MultiCH DIRECT mode killed the noise completely.... so there is obviously something going on with some sort of digital noise that is being amplified/stacked with multiple digital processes. I wonder if it's just some interference / crosstalk that is being picked up with all that stuff jammed in one box?

Anyway.... I can see why nobody else complains about it, because it was impossible to detect at any sane listening volumes. Even at volume = 0 (something I or most never ever approach) I could not hear it from my normal listening positions, and of course you would only ever hear it under very specific circumstances.

I certainly do not question the importance of the center channel. But I do question the need for a center speaker to present this channel accurately. I think if it is rare to not have a center speaker, it is more of an issue of everyone that does not understand stereo imaging thinking they need one.

The reason a theatre needs center speakers is because you typically do not sit in the middle, and making the sound appear to come from the middle with two channels only works if you sit right between them. At home, I always sit between the mains and good stereo imaging puts the center channel content directly in the middle of my screen (which is rear-projected, so there is no way a center speaker could do this). Also, my mains are really nice speakers, so in order to get a center that doesn't detract, I would have to spend quite a bit and most likely end up with something too big to fit below my TV (it has a stand with thin shelves).

I find 4.1 to be optimal for my situation, and thus far, I have been able to hear the center channel very clearly and accurately.

But to be fair, I guess I should give adding a center speaker another chance after I get Audyssey since it could potentially integrate it better with my system than I have been able to achieve in the past.

Just when I thought I was done spending money on my HT.

Zone 2 Audio Question
I currently have a Dennon 3805 and componets are digital to the Denon and analog to an old Kenwood receiver that goes to a Niles speaker selector for Zone 2 (actully since the source are analog directly to the Kenwood, it is not a Zone 2 of the Denon 3805) with speakers outside, and to three rooms. I plan on the 3311ci replacing the 3305 and moving the 3805 to handle the Zone 2. Page 61 of the 3311ci manual states that HDMI connections do not go out to ZONE 2 or 3. If I am reading it correctly, there are three choices:
- Run digital in addition to HDMI to the 3311ci and Zone 2 will work only if the signal is PCM (2-channel) format.
- Run analog in addition to HDMI to the 3311ci
- Run digital to the 3805 and do not do Zone 2 thru the 3311ci

Do I have that correct?
Which method would be the preferred?

as an update, I received confirmation via PM that the 3311 / 991 model WILL in fact allow you to connect more than 7 speakers and EQ them all. So, for example, because there are separate binding posts, you could wire up BOTH a pair of "height" speakers and the "surround back" speakers, run Audyssey and EQ them all (using the "Channel Select" menu to tell Audyssey that the speakers are there). So it looks like Denon has taken a cue from Onkyo on this front.

Obviously you cannot run more than 7 at once, but you could theoretically switch between 7.1 and 5.1+HEIGHT (for example) depending on the content....

If you have extra speakers lying around, it would be cool if people could experiment with this more and confirm how things work and how easy (or not!) it is to switch among configurations.

Correct. Although only you can decide which is preferred based on what components you want to pass to Zone 2 and whether the 3311 has enough digital inputs to support them.

I would go with #2. Doubling up with analog cables (in addition to the HDMI cables) is the easiest and most foolproof approach, since almost every device has the analog RCA audio outputs active at all times.

Of course, if you are keeping the old receiver around and are going to repurpose it as a dedicated multizone unit, you could just run separate connections from your devices straight to it....

BTW - I assume you have a 3805 right? There is no 3305....

Yes, my bad, 3805.

Another reason to consider adding a center speaker is that the Audyssey DSX feature (front height or wide) will not work without it (p. 77).

Although this speaker configuration change may cause the "Run Audyssey" error message to appear even though all speakers have been EQ'd. Needs to be confirmed though by a 3311 owner.

Batbig,
That is a good point that analog is always on (which is what I am currently doing). There could be a problem if the source's digital does not work when using HDMI to the 3311ci.

I'm disappointed by this info re component output but thanks for posting it.

One thing you didn't mention is how well component --> HDMI scaling worked. That still allows for component in. Maybe the veiling is in the output side of the 3311CI rather than the input side?

Right now I'm using component with an older Yamaha A/V receiver with my TiVo HD. There have been previous reports of HDMI handshaking difficulties with the TiVo, so I wanted to have the component path available as a backup in case I ran into those same problems with the 3311CI. Oh well.

this would be an interesting development because my 2310 does component > HDMI conversion nearly perfectly. I cannot see any degradation. Video bench tests (e.g. the 4310 reveiw at HTMag) will usually find a bit of high-freq roll-off from the A>D conversion but it should not result in anything visible with real program material (i.e. it will only be seen in test patterns).

possibly.... but in the Audyssey "start" screen there is now a menu that allows you to tell Audyssey in advance which speakers you can measure (this was there in prior models) but now it has separate options for "measure/skip" for all the "extra" speakers. And the person who PM'd me confirmed that it can "ping" more than one set as it cycles through.

So, in theory, if Audyssey has already measured the speakers and calculated filters for them, there would be no need for it to prompt you to re-run when switching modes...

You are correct that we need some people to test this out. Who has extra speakers lying around and wants to be a guinea pig

The limitation is 7 channels. If one used the pre-outs to another amp for say the fronts and back surround, could the heights and wides be used? So this could be 11.1?

The limitation in the main zone is 7.1. You have the option of surround back, wide, or front height. When the pre-outs are used, the matching speaker posts cannot also be used.

OK. Thanks. So it would be the switching as discussed previously.