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Theta Upgrade IS HDMI 1.4!!!! - Page 3  

post #61 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"If I read the info about ARC...."

You don't know what people are talking about.... it has nothing to do with room EQ.

"know how stuff works and work with it."

See above....

Shawn

Care to tell us what YOU think ARC is? I am all ears.
post #62 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post

Care to tell us what YOU think ARC is? I am all ears.

Let me beat sfogg to it. ARC is part of the HDMI 1.3a spec:

HDMI v1.3a Sec. 7.11 Audio Rate Control Overview and Supplement:

"The Audio Rate Control feature allows a Sink to slightly and continuously adjust the audio clock rate of the Source in order to match the Sink's crystal-based audio clock. The Sink controls the Source's audio clock rate with the CEC command. See CEC Supplement section CEC 13.16 for details. Source ACR behavior is not affected by Audio Rate Control. When Audio Rate Control is enabled the Source shall continue to generate correct ACR packets that accurately reflect the current (possibly adjusted) audio clock rate."


The objective of ARC is jitter reduction. HATS and PQLS are proprietary implemenations of the same architecture that slave the HDMI source to the sink.
post #63 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Let me beat sfogg to it. ARC is part of the HDMI 1.3a spec:

HDMI v1.3a Sec. 7.11 Audio Rate Control Overview and Supplement:

"The Audio Rate Control feature allows a Sink to slightly and continuously adjust the audio clock rate of the Source in order to match the Sink's crystal-based audio clock. The Sink controls the Source's audio clock rate with the CEC command. See CEC Supplement section CEC 13.16 for details. Source ACR behavior is not affected by Audio Rate Control. When Audio Rate Control is enabled the Source shall continue to generate correct ACR packets that accurately reflect the current (possibly adjusted) audio clock rate."


The objective of ARC is jitter reduction. HATS and PQLS are proprietary implemenations of the same architecture that slave the HDMI source to the sink.

What does 'clock rate' and 'jitter reduction' have to do with room equalization as Shawn asked? Two different beasts.
post #64 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

What does 'clock rate' and 'jitter reduction' have to do with room equalization as Shawn asked? Two different beasts.

Absolutely nothing. Shawn is correct. I just responded to Allen's question of what ARC is. I think the confusion is caused by the fact that ARC not only stands for "Audio Rate Control" - which is the context within which we were using the term on this thread - but it also stands for "Advanced Room Correction" which is an Audyssey based technology that orginated from the recording studio world, but is also used in the Anthem SSP*. I suspect Allen mixed up the two, but he can and probably will speak for himself.

* Correction: As Kal pointed out, ARC stands for "Anthem Room Correction", which is not an implementaion of "Advanced Room Correction", but just happens to be the same Acronym.
post #65 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Absolutely nothing. Shawn is correct. I just responded to Allen's question of what ARC is. I think the confusion is caused by the fact that ARC not only stands for "Audio Rate Control" - which is the context within which we were using the term on this thread - but it also stands for "Advanced Room Correction" which is an Audyssey based technology that orginated from the recording studio world, but is also used in the Anthem SSP. I suspect Allen mixed up the two, but he can and probably will speak for himself.

Or Anthem Room Correction.
post #66 of 576
I imagine that most AVS followers thought of ARC as:
1. Audio Research Corporation
2. ARC Light Theaters
3. Anthem Room Correction
4. Audio Rate Control

In that order.

Of course #4 is correct in this context as outlined by Edorr. A major advocate of it is Charles Hansen of Ayre. Why must we rely on Pioneer and Sony to get HDMI jitter rates down via this process? It is an allowed protocol that is one of the keys to getting High End quality from HDMI. Let's see someone in the High End use it, please. Norm
post #67 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

I imagine that most AVS followers thought of ARC as:
1. Audio Research Corporation
2. ARC Light Theaters
3. Anthem Room Correction
4. Audio Rate Control

In that order.

Of course #4 is correct in this context as outlined by Edorr. A major advocate of it is Charles Hansen of Ayre. Why must we rely on Pioneer and Sony to get HDMI jitter rates down via this process? It is an allowed protocol that is one of the keys to getting High End quality from HDMI. Let's see someone in the High End use it, please. Norm

Jitter over HDMI is why Norm and I think that using a top level analog out blu ray player into the Six Shooter is probably better sounding than any upcoming Theta HDMI solution.
post #68 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post


Jitter over HDMI is why Norm and I think that using a top level analog out blu ray player into the Six Shooter is probably better sounding than any upcoming Theta HDMI solution.

For music not so much for movie soundtracks.
post #69 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

For music not so much for movie soundtracks.

In a really good high rez musical system you can still hear and feel the difference with some of the movie and especially concert soundtracks.
post #70 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

In a really good high rez musical system you can still hear and feel the difference with some of the movie and especially concert soundtracks.

I know... the improved decay rates of sounds sure make those War of the Worlds Tripod foot steps even more believable!!!
post #71 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiophilesavant View Post

You can feel jitter?

Sure. I have been feeling a bit jittery lately myself.
post #72 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I know... the improved decay rates of sounds sure make those War of the Worlds Tripod foot steps even more believable!!!

FUNNY!

A few years back you switched from a Lexicon DD SSP to Halcro SSP and you said you heard a clear improvement on movie soundtracks (which is all you listen to).

Hoisted by your own petard!
post #73 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

FUNNY!

A few years back you switched from a Lexicon DD SSP to Halcro SSP and you said you heard a clear improvement on movie soundtracks (which is all you listen to).

Hoisted by your own petard!

RE-read my original post.

Better surround steering and no high level fizzle at reference levels... No decay rate notes!!!!
post #74 of 576
Thanks for sharing which ARC we ASSUMED everyone knew we were discussing.

Theta has been very tightly re-clocking the digital signal from very early on. This gives them a much smoother and more analog sound while taking advantage of digitals' added ability to resolve detail. It is one of the reasons their product sounds as good as it does. That and the way they can tweak a DAC. Yes, even those current, but as some would have you believe old and tired DAC's. Funny how those old and tired tubes and LP's are still sounding pretty good even after nearly 100 years of being around.

As Steve has touched on just because it is digital does not guarantee it will sound better. He has proven this to himself with the Onkyo via HDMI versus the Marantz and Six Shooter via analog.

The $64,000 ? is will the Theta version of HDMI live up to Theta's past efforts? I think it will. I also think the HDMI gen 2 version will sound even better as this is how life works.

As I posted above Theta has some big shoes to fill in that the current Six Shooter analog option does in fact deliver the goods and is about 1/2 the cost. Unless ones adds in very expensive cables.

Now that Theta has announced the October time frame for the HDMI upgrade, they must deliver. Mostly because they will have single handed killed the Six Shooter sales for this type of application. My guess about 70% less will be sold because folks will be waiting for the HDMI upgrade. I doubt that CBIII sales will do better until the HDMI upgrade is released and the reviews come in and are positive. So there is some real pressure now to get it out into the world ASAP.
post #75 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post

Now that Theta has announced the October time frame for the HDMI upgrade, they must deliver. Mostly because they will have single handed killed the Six Shooter sales for this type of application. My guess about 70% less will be sold because folks will be waiting for the HDMI upgrade. I doubt that CBIII sales will do better until the HDMI upgrade is released and the reviews come in and are positive. So there is some real pressure now to get it out into the world ASAP.

And I repeat:

Quote:


So there is some real pressure now to get it out into the world

Y'get that? Finally there is the proper incentive for Theta to come through. It must be true. There was no pressure before this.

This, folks, illustrates the power of truly persuasive reasoning

Thanks,

Nick
post #76 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

I imagine that most AVS followers thought of ARC as:
1. Audio Research Corporation
2. ARC Light Theaters
3. Anthem Room Correction
4. Audio Rate Control

OR:

5. Audio Return Channel

Which is introduced with HDMI V1.4.

But I prefer Audio Rate Control for the reasons given. Everyone should use it.

Nick
post #77 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

OR:

5. Audio Return Channel

Which is introduced with HDMI V1.4.

But I prefer Audio Rate Control for the reasons given. Everyone should use it.

Nick

To be fair, I did actually spell out "ARC" when I first brought it up in this thread on June 18th ....

(Quote: "What they really should have done is implement ARC (audio rate control) in their Compli and CBIII HDMI combo.")
post #78 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

RE-read my original post.

Better surround steering and no high level fizzle at reference levels... No decay rate notes!!!!

That was your only improvements in going to hi rez and lossless sonics for Blu Ray with your Halcro a few years back? Doesn't say much about the musicality of your system!

Aside from the improvements that you have noted, In some of my movie soundtracks the clarity, lack of noise, and ability to play quieter yet hear everything, of everything from a fly or bug flying by to a jet screaming over you, and particularly the better musical soundtracks, are just more real.
And particularly much more non-fatigueing. This has always been a hallmark of the Theta CB3 Extreme DACs with good DVD soundtracks. Now its a hallmark even further along for Blu Ray good soundtracks with the Marantz UD9004 - Six Shooter combo. Very, very impressive. The latest "Star Trek" movie sounded much better than when I used the Integra.
"Baraka" is simply more stunning and moving in its soundtrack than with the Integra. On the other hand, "Its Complicated" is a real basic soundtrack that nothing makes any difference on.
post #79 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post

Now that Theta has announced the October time frame for the HDMI upgrade, they must deliver. Mostly because they will have single handed killed the Six Shooter sales for this type of application. My guess about 70% less will be sold because folks will be waiting for the HDMI upgrade. I doubt that CBIII sales will do better until the HDMI upgrade is released and the reviews come in and are positive. So there is some real pressure now to get it out into the world ASAP.

Alan, I wish it were otherwise, but as Theta has done this time and time before the past few years, once the October time frame passes, eventually another time frame will be given, and then you will likely be saying the same thing just "Flash Forwarded" six months into the future.

I wish ATI Theta well and I hope it all works out for the CB3 HDMI upgrade. But after several years of this I must color myself "skeptical".


By the way, I know there's a real expensive license fee to incorporate HDMI 1.3 in a SSP or component plus a fee per unit sold as well.

I think I read somewhere the HDMI 1.4 license fee may be much more reasonable. Anyone know anything about this?
post #80 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post




Y'get that? Finally there is the proper incentive for Theta to come through. It must be true. There was no pressure before this.

This, folks, illustrates the power of truly persuasive reasoning

Thanks,

Nick

Actually I was not in any hurry and so there was nothing to "get" at all.

I am not like the Trolls here who have never owned Theta and just come here to put those who do down in a weak attempt to make themselves feel better/superior when in fact they have no idea what good sound is. You know the type. They talk the talk but cannot walk the walk. You never hear what their systems are and when you finally do it is obvious they are talking out of their Troll rears.

In context, Theta has never posted a date AND a price together in a THETA PRICE SHEET. This to me is uniquely different. Paired with a new national sales director and the fact that Theta has all their other irons out of the fire, ie Compli Blu, I see this as much more likely to happen as announced.

Will I be bummed if it doesn't? Not at all.
As I stated, in context, I like the sound of the Six Shooter and analogs and so does Steve and others as well. We are ACTUAL USERS and not grunting Trolls.

If it is vaporware will it sour me towards Theta? NOPE!!!

ANY vaporware will not change the sound of what I have in my room now. It just limits where I can go in the future and really that limitation has been the truest Vaporware as of now.

HDMI so far has not been done as well as it could be, as testified by those who have Beta tested with their own money. So from my point of view it is low on my list since my system is very sweat as is.

Really, I find it very funny to read the TROLL posts as they are the ones that don't or won't get it. Good sound that is.

Good sound is as much an art as it is a purchase. It must prove itself and not with the eye or by a connection interface.

Sadly Trolls are too concerned with living under bridges, grunting and trying to frighten folks. Mostly they are sad and lonely and just smell bad.

To quote a line from Signs" Why can't the get girl friends?" They can but they have to impress them with Troll talk and stuff that twinkles and sparkles. Just don't listen to it too long as it will give you a headache. And what ever you do don't dive in as the water is indeed very shallow.

I think we have beat the speculation to death so until there are some more facts I think I will retire to go have a listen to some wonderful music and watch some delightful movies. I am getting a headache from all the non Theta user Troll grunting.
post #81 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post


I am not like the Trolls here who have never owned Theta and just come here to put those who do down in a weak attempt to make themselves feel better/superior when in fact they have no idea what good sound is. You know the type. They talk the talk but cannot walk the walk. You never hear what their systems are and when you finally do it is obvious they are talking out of their Troll rears.

I'm deeply offended. The guy that's transparently trying to sell Theta Products considers me a troll. And, of course, the fact that this company has been promising something for nearly five years and hasn't delivered is something only a troll would find fault with. Not someone with exquisite tastes such as Vendor Fleener.

Quote:


Paired with a new national sales director and the fact that Theta has all their other irons out of the fire, ie Compli Blu, I see this as much more likely to happen as announced.

I'm shocked. I would have thought that you had lost confidence after all these years . . . oh, that's right. You'd still like to sell Theta units.

Quote:


Will I be bummed if it doesn't? Not at all.
As I stated, in context, I like the sound of the Six Shooter and analogs and so does Steve and others as well. We are ACTUAL USERS and not grunting Trolls.

If it is vaporware will it sour me towards Theta? NOPE!!!

Others don't like being strung out for years, and promised something that never gets delivered. So you are certainly possessing unique tastes. Of course, some people like it when . . .

Quote:


Really, I find it very funny to read the TROLL posts as they are the ones that don't or won't get it. Good sound that is.

And your posts are a barrel of laughs . . . don't give up on Theta . . . they will come through . . . so what if they've just promised and promised . . . After all, it's only money . . . . This is a Theta dealer speaking to people from whom he would like to further exchange Theta products, for their money.

Quote:


Sadly Trolls are too concerned with living under bridges, grunting and trying to frighten folks. Mostly they are sad and lonely and just smell bad.

Tell me, Allen, what are shills concerned with?

Thanks,

Nick
post #82 of 576
Be nice folks. This thread is as bad as if our old frined DougWinsor was posting here.
post #83 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Be nice folks. This thread is as bad as if our old frined DougWinsor was posting here.

On a positive note, despite its questionable future viability, Theta and the CBIII still evoke strong passions...
post #84 of 576
It's great the 6 shooter is available even though it's use fully bypasses the $15K box...

But that said, HDMI is an industry standard and it should've been available for users years ago. For what Steve et al paid, it's unconscionable that in 2010, they are still the only SSP manufacturer that cannot make it happen. The 'we need to do it right' mantra in explaining the delay is simply laughable. We all know there will be no delivery in October.

Likely, HDMI implementation was nixed after ATI purchased Theta. They are simply awaiting an announcement of a CB-IV / trade in program (a la Lexicon), if they do an SSP at all.

This fifth in a series of HDMI announcements simply affirms what we all know about ATI and Theta: they have no idea what the hell to do...
post #85 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

It's great the 6 shooter is available even though it's use fully bypasses the $15K box...

But that said, HDMI is an industry standard and it should've been available for users years ago. For what Steve et al paid, it's unconscionable that in 2010, they are still the only SSP manufacturer that cannot make it happen. The 'we need to do it right' mantra in explaining the delay is simply laughable. We all know there will be no delivery in October.

Likely, HDMI implementation was nixed after ATI purchased Theta. They are simply awaiting an announcement of a CB-IV / trade in program (a la Lexicon), if they do an SSP at all.

This fifth in a series of HDMI announcements simply affirms what we all know about ATI and Theta: they have no idea what the hell to do...

Jeff,

I'd have to agree with you. I had considered buying a CBIII and 6 Shooter, with the hope that the HDMI upgrade would soon be on its way. For those who already have a CBIII and 6 shooter, I'm sure it's a terrific option to have with a blu ray player that has great analog outputs. I even considered buying one of the used ones, but I had to consider : if it were to break down, would I be able to get it repaired and how long would I have to wait?

About that time, I received some very wise advise from one of the posters in this forum and decided to pass on it. I'm very happy with the decision and I'm very thankful for the advice.

Still, I do hope that ATI/Theta gets it together and puts out a fantastic "updated" product some day. I'm sure they've lost lots of folks over these delays, but I have to believe that if they build it, folks will come.

Dave
post #86 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Jeff,

I'd have to agree with you. I had considered buying a CBIII and 6 Shooter, with the hope that the HDMI upgrade would soon be on its way. For those who already have a CBIII and 6 shooter, I'm sure it's a terrific option to have with a blu ray player that has great analog outputs. I even considered buying one of the used ones, but I had to consider : if it were to break down, would I be able to get it repaired and how long would I have to wait?

About that time, I received some very wise advise from one of the posters in this forum and decided to pass on it. I'm very happy with the decision and I'm very thankful for the advice.

Still, I do hope that ATI/Theta gets it together and puts out a fantastic "updated" product some day. I'm sure they've lost lots of folks over these delays, but I have to believe that if they build it, folks will come.

Dave

You made a wise decision. Was I the one who gave you that advise - I know I gave it to a few folks the past year or two who PMed me. I already had my money into my CB3 and Six Shooter way before HDMI even came out - I have lost nothing. But there does remain a question about how well and quick the new ATI-Theta will take care of repairs, whether under warranty or not. It remains possible that it will all shake out well in the next year or two. But that is also speculative, knowing the ATI closed the Theta facilities and supposedly moved them to ATI. That may be. But we've heard that before with some other high end companies that had service problems for some time and then went under totally. I do hope Theta pulls through including the HDMI upgrade and if I get the right price I may consider and try it. I got a smokin' deal on my Marantz UD9004 and will come out fine keepin' it or sellin' it at some point if the HDMI upgrade materializes and if it sounds and works good. With the Marantz I can also afford to let some others try any HDMI upgrade first and see what they say about it. And again, its a BIG IF if we'll ever see it.
post #87 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

You made a wise decision. Was I the one who gave you that advise - I know I gave it to a few folks the past year or two who PMed me. I already had my money into my CB3 and Six Shooter way before HDMI even came out - I have lost nothing. But there does remain a question about how well and quick the new ATI-Theta will take care of repairs, whether under warranty or not. It remains possible that it will all shake out well in the next year or two. But that is also speculative, knowing the ATI closed the Theta facilities and supposedly moved them to ATI. That may be. But we've heard that before with some other high end companies that had service problems for some time and then went under totally. I do hope Theta pulls through including the HDMI upgrade and if I get the right price I may consider and try it. I got a smokin' deal on my Marantz UD9004 and will come out fine keepin' it or sellin' it at some point if the HDMI upgrade materializes and if it sounds and works good. With the Marantz I can also afford to let some others try any HDMI upgrade first and see what they say about it. And again, its a BIG IF if we'll ever see it.

Hi Steve,

Yes, it was you - I was being discreet, in case you didn't want it known that you had given that type of advice. You gave me the advice, given the fact that I don't have a dedicated room and I'm in the midst of building a family (we had our second kid, by the way :-). I live in the Phoenix area, and I stopped by and spent some time with you one afternoon listening and looking at your wonderful room and setup. I initially wanted a chance to hear the Theta equipment, which I did get to do, but I also had the privilege and bonus of meeting you. For those who have not had this privilege, Steve is a great and generous person.

Congrats on the Marantz Steve - I've heard this is a great sounding piece of gear!

Dave
post #88 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Hi Steve,

Yes, it was you - I was being discreet, in case you didn't want it known that you had given that type of advice. You gave me the advice, given the fact that I don't have a dedicated room and I'm in the midst of building a family (we had our second kid, by the way :-). I live in the Phoenix area, and I stopped by and spent some time with you one afternoon listening and looking at your wonderful room and setup. I initially wanted a chance to hear the Theta equipment, which I did get to do, but I also had the privilege and bonus of meeting you. For those who have not had this privilege, Steve is a great and generous person.

Congrats on the Marantz Steve - I've heard this is a great sounding piece of gear!

Dave

Yea, I remember.

If you wanna another demo as I have everything functioning to perfection now PM me!!!
post #89 of 576
Not trying to read to much into this, but does it strike anyone else as slighty peculiar that more than a week after informing their dealers about the fortcoming HDMI 1.4 upgrade the Theta website does not mention any of this, nor has there been a press release.

Not sure what the typical time gap is between dealer announcement and public announcement, but I would think Theta would want its customers to know about this ......
post #90 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Not trying to read to much into this, but does it strike anyone else as slighty peculiar that more than a week after informing their dealers about the fortcoming HDMI 1.4 upgrade the Theta website does not mention any of this, nor has there been a press release.

Not sure what the typical time gap is between dealer announcement and public announcement, but I would think Theta would want its customers to know about this ......

Think about it. For a few years now, Theta has been under heavy criticism, suggesting that they were simply stringing people along. Nothing would pour water on that criticism more than a concrete announcement, with a deadline--in short, a commitment, not an aspiration.

Instead, what we've heard is nothing more than string-along excuses: Software is 95% done . . . just hang on a few months more . . . we're very serious about this . . . and on, and on.

Now, when even the hardest core Theta believers have publicly declared that they've lost faith in Theta, what do you hear? . . . Just a few months more . . . HDMI 1.4 (remember when they didn't want to implement 1.1, or 1.2, because they were waiting for HDMI 1.3?) . . . and on, and on.

Theta has only two respectable routes to take: Promise it will be here by a date certain, and suffer the consequences of failure if they don't deliver; or admit now that there won't be an upgrade, and give people certainty for their plans. The hold-on-I'm-comin' routine could only last a while, and it's now been four to five years. How can anyone believe them anymore?

Note, too, that October 2010 is conveniently one month after CEDIA 2010, in case anyone showed up at CEDIA looking for a glimpse. Won't be ready. Sound familiar?

Thanks,

Nick
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