"Official" Pioneer Elite SC-37 - Page 117

^^^

my take is that we are often more correct than the pio csr's...

as we have many examples of people using 4 ohm speakers with no issues on sc series avr's... for several examples of this (besides gg, who ran 4 ohm speakers off his), see the first post of the sc-05/07 thread...

I'm one of them, Snell E5's fronts, XA-55cr center and 4 SR-30's surrounds all 4 ohms powered by SC-35 without a problem whatsoever.

Cheers

DIY Natalie P's front mains L/R and Zaph's ZD3C center all <4ohm's that ran on the sc-05 and now the sc-37. No Problems

Well I got some what lucky recently and stumbled upon an open box or should I say no box SC 37 without accessories , until I searched through some boxes under the open box table at the local BB, I found the un-opened remote . I found the large clear bag bag containing the power cord and all various hookups and connectors with the manual and warranty info, 599.99 out the door, all of these items are marked display shelf model and to be perfectly honest there is one minor nic in the bezel upper right corner so small that I cant measure it, touched it up already with a sharpie, no scratches on the front display but some fingerprints that dont want to come off of the large knobs , any ideas ??

I have always owned Pio products but this looks like a whole new ballgame, one quick question, how can and do I reset unit back to factory settings, so as I can start all over like new again, thanks and have a great day, sawz.

Just posted this on the SC25/27 board but that board looks pretty dead. Great prices on new SC27s. Here's the link:
http://www.6ave.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=ELISC27
Edit: They just lowered the price another $150

The PIO's have an internal speaker (nominal) impedance switch you can select. It's 6 & 8 ohm. The CSR advised in that fashion because the PIO's aren't rated to drive loads (nominally or typically) below 4 ohms for prolonged periods of time. The CSR gave you a lousy cookie cut explanation but that doesn't make it wrong. If you like pushing the margin on specifications, have at it, but the PIO's are spec'd the way they are for functional and performance reasons. It's a roll-of-the-dice that anyone can experiment with for sure. Do so at your own risk; at risk of voiding the warranty or ruining a good thing in the long run. A good analogy to improper speaker loads on an amplifier is over-clocking a computer CPU. Sure you can overclock or over-voltage a chip without immediate failure, but you run the risk diminishing performance, intermittent anomolies and reduced life expectancy - even with elaborate cooling systems.

As an aside, the mere fact that you don't find (read) a significant number of complaints on forums like this doesn't mean it's safe, proper or advisable. The "this dude (or these dudes) has (have) been running just fine with 4 ohms" doesn't prove it's OK either. You're pushing the design margin beyond it's specified range. Some units may appear OK doing so in short order but there are many other variables that can come into play and should be taken into consideration over the long haul. There's also no such thing as "more correct".

Trust the mfg specfications. They are defined the way they are for reason;

Performance & Reliablity

I am trying to connect my laptop to my receiver.

Here is my setup.

Sony docking station with DVI-D out.
Blue Jeans DVI to HDMI cable to HDMI-3 on SC-37
SC-37 to Pioneer monitor via Blue Jeans HDMI to DVI cable.

All other HDMI sources work fine, except this one I get nothing. I turned Video Conversion off (doesn't work on either).

Is this not possible??

I concur.

If the DVI output is not HDCP compliant, it will not work.

I thought if not HDCP compliant, the resolution would be downgraded to 720p. Am I crazy?

Are you suggesting that if ou have 6 ohm speakers changing the setting? Do you have to open up the case to find this switch? Is it marked?
Thanks

The problem with this analogy is that most people who overclock their CPUs are running at higher voltages and CPU speeds ALL the time. This leads to higher core temperatures ALL the time. With the SC-27/37, unless you're running at reference volumes ALL the time then you will probably never see a difference between 4 and 8ohm speakers. And if you are, then maybe some additional forced air cooling wouldn't be a bad idea anyway.

@amatot.... you may believe what you like...

@others... as far as the impedance selector goes.... leave it a 8... the only thing that does is limit current... if you are not getting acceptable results at the 8 ohm setting (i.e. the avr is going into protection), you will not get acceptable results with the 6 ohm setting... at that point, your only solution is more stable amplification...

note that it will be the very rare circumstance that will demand further, more stable, amplification...

how about adding covering own's ass to that list

amatot - you raise a point, but....(always that)

1. even professional reviewers have run 4 ohm speakers.

2. Even B&O's Icepower division rates their OWN multichannel amp boards (the same ones used by Pioneer in the SC-09, SC-07, SC-27, SC-37, Wyred4Sound's mc amps, D-Sonics amps, and many more companies using Ice amps) at 4 ohms. If ALL of them AND the mfg. who actually designs & build them for everyone, including Pioneer, have no problem stating they are good for 4 ohms, why should you presume to say we shouldn't accept that? Icepower should know their own product

you are free to your own opinion, of course. But...(there it is again) I'm one of the very 1st Pioneer SC owners on this forum, I run 85 db efficiency 4 ohm rated Magnepans and my SC-09 has NEVER shut down. In fact, on 1 movie recently it produced enough juice to blow my Magnepan center's 3 amp tweeter protection fuse. The SC-09 never skipped a beat. I received it in May 2008 and it's been in use ever since, nearly 3.5 yrs. 1.5 yrs past the warranty.

There are a number of SC owners also using Maggies, and not only are they 4 ohm but they are notorious for being power hungry and needing lots of current to drive them best.

It's my choice but I take all Pioneer's apparent "concern" about 4 ohm capability with a grain of salt. And I have no desire to see mine in the shop.

Hell, I've been running an all Maggie setup with 2 previous Pioneer's class A/B flagships, 49 & 59txi, for years & never once had a problem. Never activated their protection circuits either

Believe what you will, I'll take the amp designer & builder's word over a company trying to cover their butt for warranty reasons any day. But that is my choice. I don't consider it a roll of the dice. I consider it common sense, having spent time reading & learning about the technology's capabilities.

3. Home Theater, UltimateAV, European review sites, have ALL bench tested these models at 4 ohms and they pass with flying colors, even at 5 channels driven at once.

amatot....Chris is correct. Personally, I don't know why any manufacturer includes 8 Ohm/6 Ohm/4 Ohm switches. As best I can tell, they do little except limit current, as Chris points out. However, there are so many protection circuits in today's AVRs/amps, that the unit would go into protect mode in the rare circumstance where you would overload it.

I used to work for a company that had to submit products to THX for certification. The "tests" that THX did were quite extensive. And, THX does not want them made public, for a lot of different reasons.

A few years ago, I put up some of those requirements here in the original SC05/07/09 threads. Not much in the mood to hunt for them now.

Generally speaking (and this isn't just for Pioneer, but any manufacturer submitting to THX certification), if a unit is certified by THX, it must play down to 3.2 Ohm loads, with no more than .1% THD. There are also different levels of THX certification.....some less stringent than others. At minimum, AVRs have to be capable of driving difficult loads (more difficult than 4 Ohm).

That doesn't mean that other AVRs and amps that don't have THX certifications can't drive difficult loads. It just means that THX certification made them prove it in their labs.

People confuse THX certification meaning that THX only offers additional surround schemes. They do that. But, IMHO their greatest worth is to make AV companies prove what they can do (vs just throwing a bunch of specs out there, which they may, or may not be able to prove).

Long and short of it, Pioneer can say they don't want you running 4 Ohm loads. But, by the mere fact that they have THX certifications, they are well within the performance parameters in their gear that they've proven they can and do.

And I forgot to mention that one, gg

If you shouldn't use 4 ohm speakers, why bother to have it THX Ultra2 cert'd in the 1st place.
And we all know Pioneer places a great deal of emphasis on meeting those specs.

Another great point.

Steve...I can't help but think that Pioneer is listening a little to closely to their lawyers than their engineering staff.

Plus, as we all know, Pioneer CSRs (who say not to run 4 Ohm loads) aren't necessarily the brightest lamps in the room.

I had been running 4 Ohm loads since the 59TXi, through the SC05, and now with my current SC27. Never a problem....and I crank mine up.

once more, it is proven that "some dudes on the internet" have done significantly more research and due diligence than one might expect...

It's a setup option (software) not a switch you have to go inside to flip. Check the manual.

When did you start working for Pioneer as a CSR?

I also take 'Posts' counts with more than just a grain of salt. Listen to your gear much?

Posting on the internets, in the tens of thousands, an expert doesn't make.

(that last dependant clause was constructed that way for effect -)

you think that's funny

chris & many others here know more in their little finger about audio & video gear & technology than any help desk employee you might think of

Maybe you can learn a few things but that requires effort, time & experience so it's easy to believe what someone making $15/hr on a phone tells you, I guess.


I've owned Pioneer gear since the late 70's, friend...laserdisc players, receivers, universal players, blu-ray players, CRT-RPTV and plasma, and I would put my trust in experienced people in this forum than any help desk phone person I've had the opportunity to talk with on the phone. Just like the PC world you like to use as an analog, they have a script, notes from training, but a thimble full of hands on experience.

I made calls to Pioneer in my early days with the SC-09, and the CSR's I spoke with hadn't even seen one yet! Mine arrived to me before the 1st one got delivered to Pioneer's Long Beach store. And the info given to me was bogus just like it's been for many others.

there are numerous industry insiders and professionals who post here, so you might want to do yourself a favor & listen for a change

I guess some of us can put you on our ignore list.
too bad, your loss

typical...can't refute facts or info provided so just make personal attacks

Greg,

You took my analogy way farther than necessary but I appreciate the reply.
"This leads to higher core temperatures ALL the time." Some generations ago this statement might be true, but it's not the case anymore for the newer CPU designs & knowledgeable overclockers. And what damage does happens at the silicon level doesn't require "ALL the time" over-specification of voltage and frequency.

But I'll leave that topic alone now because this site is about audio.

Cheers

Please do!

^^
consider it done
I aim to please.

I don't know you well enough to say if you are crazy or not..

I've never heard of non-HDCP compliant video being down converted as a "work" around..

It just won't handshake, and hence, won't work.

GG,

"Long and short of it, Pioneer can say they don't want you running 4 Ohm loads. But, by the mere fact that they have THX certifications, they are well within the performance parameters in their gear that they've proven they can and do."

The Pioneer specs and operating manual speak for themselves. Seems rather incongruent that Pioneer would warn against using 4 ohm loads even with THX certification. Suffice it say, no one here is a Pioneer engineer, know the designs thoroughly and can stand on two feet claiming anything to contrary to what Pioneer publishes (or doesn't publish that happens to be proprietary in nature) or recommends via customer support channels. And it's worth mentioning that in this day and age of cost cutting, that the current line of Pioneer AVRs are no longer B&O ICE-Power but a Pioneer variation, proprietary Class D design. THX certification isn't the end all be all to the discussion. If someone wants to challenge the technical merits of violating the recommended specs for speakers loads, based upon sound engineering judgment, please enlighten us. I am all ears.

As an aside and not a direct response to you GG, categorizing the qualifications of what people make per hour is simply a bad debate tactic, childish and not relevant to the discussion. Again, I put a lot of weight into how much someone rants about 'whatever' and my personal level of disregard increases proportionally with the number of 'posts' by said ranting poster.

Go back and read the post about THX certification and then reconsider your logic. Whether you like THX or not, to get the cert., the device needs to be 4 Ohm stable.

The members you are arguing with have far more knowledge than any Pioneer CSR or attorney I've ever encountered. If you would be willing to consider what they are saying, you might learn something.

As to post counts, I'd believe someone with high post count numbers and years of Pio ownership history over someone with a cartoon pirate avatar, but hey, maybe that's just me.....

that's pretty good

Yes, some of us go so far back with Pioneer, we can almost anticipate the questions before their asked But we're just a bunch of internet dudes, so we couldn't possibly know anything

Only some of us have the service manuals, schematics, have actually talked with Pioneer's product managers and figured out what does what. Imagine that! Not bad for some 'net doofus's

this 4 ohm question has been asked so many times it would be hard to count. One poor SC owner was told by a "knowledgeable" Pioneer phone help person that if he attached 4 ohm speakers, it would burn up! Like catch on fire burn up...that's good engineering knowledge, I'd say

Pioneer has made it clear they put more value on getting the class D amps THX certified than they do number of channels in the receiver. Since the THX Ultra2 spec calls for being able to reliably drive 3.2 ohm speaker loads, then they can. It's that simple. And the new Class D design, from International Rectifier, is supposed to be even better & more powerful at 4 ohm loads. This is straight from Chris Walker, the manager for Pioneer's audio & players. To the ignored poster, notice I said better; he didn't say the new amps had 4 ohm capability and Icepower amps didn't.

As far as the comment by the ignored poster trusting the people who engineered them, that would be Bang & Olufsen's Icepower division, not Pioneer.

But let's not quibble over facts, who needs them anyway.

yeah, I've read the THX certification steps a while back as someone listed what the requirements were to get THX certified. Now, my guess is that Pioneer does not want to stick their necks out saying their THX cerified recv'rs are 4ohm capable. The reason would be not having consumers who push their products day in day out blowing the amps.

or could it be that, you can't find the THX specs online anymore because THX doesn't want anyone to know that they've changed their requirements to have these recv'rs certified. Maybe they lowered their standards, I surely don't know

If someone would kindly post recent THX certification requirements there'd be no wondering if this recv'r is 4ohm stable or not. That's the bottom line