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buliding my first 2 ch system - Page 2

post #31 of 114
6/30/10 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

No, I'm relying on the human ear. Maybe you're missing that part of it. I want to rely on what we HEAR as LISTENERS. Not bias and expectations that have nothing to do with the EAR.

Really, what a surprise, you sure had me fooled.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

AKA: "I don't listen to facts or logic that I don't like."

No just sound systems that I don't like but I think you know that!
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post #32 of 114
6/30/10 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post

I on the other and am confident, have high self-esteem and will happily live with the decisions I make regardless of what others might try to tell me.

You seem overly confident which can lead to foolishness.
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post #33 of 114
6/30/10 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

You seem overly confident which can lead to foolishness.

Care to share how that is possible and what exactly are you implying?
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post #34 of 114
6/30/10 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post

Care to share how that is possible and what exactly are you implying?

What you posted on this thread so far and then some. VVV

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18815495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post

Everything I said is fact,
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post #35 of 114
6/30/10 at 5:21pm
I don't believe it.

The guy says 'It's my first system, what should I do?' and the cables guys are straight into it.

Try different cables.

I don't believe it. For ****'s sake I don't believe it.

Why not HELP the guy?? ****, it is his FIRST system. For gods sake help him get the basics right would you all? The best speakers you can manage, coupled with the juggling act of the best transducer at the front, ie turntable cartridge etc etc.

To set up an analog front end is always more difficult, many many more variables, and costs more as a general rule. Does he NEED analog at this stage?? If so, then whatever budget is best worked out by juggling the TT and the speakers.

Then the room.

NOT bloody frickin cable for ****'s sake. It is his FIRST system. He wants to maximise his bucks NOW. For ****'s sake.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post

Really, so what is your reason for someone who has paid more, which looks better and is from a more reputable company than the cable they replaced, gives them a listen then thinks the sounds sucks compared to to how it sounded before with the less fancy cable, takes them out and sends them back like I have done on several occasions. Pretty much blows your theory out of the water I would say.

I have checked the date (not april the first), so I guess this is a wind up??

See, I thought I'd better check before taking it seriously and addressing it seriously, it IS a joke right?

I mean, no-one (surely) actually believes that is some sort of rebuttal of the argument Chris put forward??

Seriously??

So, it is a gag thrown out there to see which idiot would bite isn't it! Isn't it? Please?? No-one is that stupid are they??
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post #36 of 114
6/30/10 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post


Because you can't win a debate with me you exhibit a condescending attitude because that is all you got. All I have to say when it comes to audio is those who rely on charts, white papers and measurements are weak minded , unsure of themselves and need to feel reassured their making the right decisions because they can't do it on their own. I on the other and am confident, have high self-esteem and will happily live with the decisions I make regardless of what others might try to tell me.

Sorry that you fail to understand the concept. Those of us who actually work with the cables professionally KNOW what the facts are. We do not need charts etc to prove what we know to be true or false. The reason we want to see the data on hyperbole cables is to force the hawkers of said garbage into PROVING their claims by providing the specifications just like every LEGITIMATE cable manufacturer the world over.

We could not care less of those with more money than sense want to spend ridiculous amounts on a piece of wire. What we are trying to do is (hopefully) rescue the gullible and educate those who have no technical clue.

There is ONLY one form of energy in a wire that we are concerned about- amplitude and frequency modulated electricity. Each part of the signal can be measured and reproduced in a controlled environment and most will expect and trust the test results. Where that concept stops is the cable and silly accessory market. Cryo treatment, risers, anti vibration pads and AVM fluid, wooden knobs, and the list goes on.
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post #37 of 114
6/30/10 at 5:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

I don't believe it.

The guy says 'It's my first system, what should I do?' and the cables guys are straight into it.

Try different cables.

I don't believe it. For ****'s sake I don't believe it.

Why not HELP the guy?? ****, it is his FIRST system. For gods sake help him get the basics right would you all? The best speakers you can manage, coupled with the juggling act of the best transducer at the front, ie turntable cartridge etc etc.

To set up an analog front end is always more difficult, many many more variables, and costs more as a general rule. Does he NEED analog at this stage?? If so, then whatever budget is best worked out by juggling the TT and the speakers.

Then the room.

NOT bloody frickin cable for ****'s sake. It is his FIRST system. He wants to maximise his bucks NOW. For ****'s sake.

haha nice. thanks!
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post #38 of 114
6/30/10 at 6:00pm
Thread Starter 
i was messing with the camera settings
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post #39 of 114
6/30/10 at 7:26pm
Thread Starter 
holy crap! thats why 2 ch systems generally dont have a sub!
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post #40 of 114
6/30/10 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

I don't believe it.

The guy says 'It's my first system, what should I do?' and the cables guys are straight into it.

Try different cables.

I don't believe it. For ****'s sake I don't believe it.

Why not HELP the guy?? ****, it is his FIRST system. For gods sake help him get the basics right would you all? The best speakers you can manage, coupled with the juggling act of the best transducer at the front, ie turntable cartridge etc etc.

To set up an analog front end is always more difficult, many many more variables, and costs more as a general rule. Does he NEED analog at this stage?? If so, then whatever budget is best worked out by juggling the TT and the speakers.

Then the room.

NOT bloody frickin cable for ****'s sake. It is his FIRST system. He wants to maximise his bucks NOW. For ****'s sake.




I have checked the date (not april the first), so I guess this is a wind up??

See, I thought I'd better check before taking it seriously and addressing it seriously, it IS a joke right?

I mean, no-one (surely) actually believes that is some sort of rebuttal of the argument Chris put forward??

Seriously??

So, it is a gag thrown out there to see which idiot would bite isn't it! Isn't it? Please?? No-one is that stupid are they??

You should re-read the beginning of this thread, Terry J.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoostil View Post

i guess my only question would be about cables. i dont have much experience with "audiophile" grade interconnects or speaker cables, so where should i start? ive been looking on audiogon for some used stuff, and have been told by a very trusted friend to try MIT cables. is there anything else i shoud consider for a "starter" or "budget" system? anything ive missed? better tubes? better cartridge? outboard phono preamp? thanks for any advice, and im really looking foward to jumping into yet another super addictive hobby! thanks guys!
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post #41 of 114
6/30/10 at 7:56pm
So far, the conclusion we are coming to is the same old AVS 2 channel BS.

All amplifiers, CD players, and cables are the same because controlled testing bears this out. Who really believes this?
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post #42 of 114
6/30/10 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

All amplifiers, CD players, and cables are the same because controlled testing bears this out. Who really believes this?

Who said all amplifiers, CD players and cables are the same?
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post #43 of 114
6/30/10 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

In effect, this would lead people to think that all gear sounds the same, because differences are difficult or impossible to tell in controlled testing, at least as far as electronics are concerned (barring SET amps vs. mega watt SS or some similar pairing of course).

Just to offset your penchant for circular argumentation*. Barring an SET amp pushed beyond it's limits vs. a mega watt SS or some similar mis-pairing of course.

It is apparent to everyone here what my intent is, but feel free to take a left turn with it.


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
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post #44 of 114
6/30/10 at 8:41pm
Thread Starter 
generally, should i have the gain on the amp up and volume down on the preamp? gain the amp in the middle? try different combinations?
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post #45 of 114
6/30/10 at 8:51pm
ELECTRICAL: 25w/ch stereo, 50w mono. Response 18-30kHz (+0 -0.1dB). Distortion 0.5%. Noise & hum -90dB. Output impedance 4, 8, 16, 150, 200 and 600 ohms. 600 ohm balanced to ground and center tapped. (2, 4, 8 and 16 ohms in mono). Output voltages 25 and 70.7V. Internal impedance less than 10% of rated impedance. Input impedance 250k. Input sensitivity 0.5V (2.0V with gain controls at dot indicator).

I would start with the amp level at around 12'o clock and go from there.
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post #46 of 114
6/30/10 at 8:51pm
We usually start with the amp at about 40-50% gain. The pre outs are quieter and you can increase the gain with less noise at the speaker out. With the MCI a systems you are already starting with a primo setup. The only real issue the preamps ever had was a batch of noisy volume pots from IRC. If they get noisy, they can be cleaned easily or better yet, replaced with Alps, Bournes or Ohmite.

Forget wasting money on BS cables. You made a wise decision with the McI. Stick with generic cables and you will save money, pride and have more fum listening to and buying more music.

BTW JD, that purple glow will slowly disappear as the tubes age, It is from slight impurities in the gas. But does not affect audio.
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post #47 of 114
6/30/10 at 8:55pm
Congratulations! You actually posted some specs!! See, it didn't hurt. Now, if you could just post some from a couple of your precious cable hawkers.

Look at a cable in Belden's catalog and that will give you an idea of what performance specs look like.
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post #48 of 114
6/30/10 at 9:00pm
You have been shown plenty of specs, Giz. You just choose to ignore them. I am sure the Belden brochures have lots of pretty pictures. You forgot Noble for pot recommendations.

As for cables, the OP has the opportunity to these try risk free for himself. Experimentation is encouraged. Jdoostil, your trusted friend is right, you might find that MIT cables are for you. Audioquest makes a great product too.
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post #49 of 114
6/30/10 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

You should re-read the beginning of this thread, Terry J.

Yep. Started fine enough. Op asked for advice, obliquely mentioned 'dunno about cables'. First answer straight forward, don't worry about them. Perfectly fine and reasonable answer given the context of the thread.

Then YOU started it off, pushing your cable agenda. And your cable agenda pushing buddies jumped in (including Mr 'I tell lies and cheat and deceive as well as sell expensive cables').

And you have the gall to put cables on the same footing as room treatment? You too seem to becoming a liar.

Is it not true that you yourself state cables are very subtle? (don't make me chase your posts, be a man and admit it and save me the bother). If so, why are you bringing it to the table in a 'help me start my stereo system' thread as WELL as equate it with room treatments?

S*hit Tess, I don't give a flying f*ck what you have in your system, but for christ's sake don't be a hypocrite and change your story when it suits you (subtle one minute when it suits your point, equal to room treatments when it suits another point).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

So far, the conclusion we are coming to is the same old AVS 2 channel BS.

All amplifiers, CD players, and cables are the same because controlled testing bears this out. Who really believes this?

Where was this statement made in the thread? Well done tess, two strikes in one go. I thought we made some little progress in the other thread, now we start again with the same old crap dredged up again.

In any case, if the guy already has his pre and power amps, WHY do we need to advise him on those selections??? So the absence of mention of amps in this thread is NOT saying 'they sound the same'!

Can we have a bit of discriminatory thinking please?

Please, keep this thread FOR THE OP and help him. Don't turn it into your own personal crusade.
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post #50 of 114
6/30/10 at 9:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

Yep. Started fine enough. Op asked for advice, obliquely mentioned 'dunno about cables'. First answer straight forward, don't worry about them. Perfectly fine and reasonable answer given the context of the thread.

Then YOU started it off, pushing your cable agenda. And your cable agenda pushing buddies jumped in (including Mr 'I tell lies and cheat and deceive as well as sell expensive cables').

And you have the gall to put cables on the same footing as room treatment? You too seem to becoming a liar.

Is it not true that you yourself state cables are very subtle? (don't make me chase your posts, be a man and admit it and save me the bother). If so, why are you bringing it to the table in a 'help me start my stereo system' thread as WELL as equate it with room treatments?

S*hit Tess, I don't give a flying f*ck what you have in your system, but for christ's sake don't be a hypocrite and change your story when it suits you (subtle one minute when it suits your point, equal to room treatments when it suits another point).



Where was this statement made in the thread? Well done tess, two strikes in one go. I thought we made some little progress in the other thread, now we start again with the same old crap dredged up again.

In any case, if the guy already has his pre and power amps, WHY do we need to advise him on those selections??? So the absence of mention of amps in this thread is NOT saying 'they sound the same'!

Can we have a bit of discriminatory thinking please?

Please, keep this thread FOR THE OP and help him. Don't turn it into your own personal crusade.

Do you bother to read the thread before posting? You are so far off base here I don't know where to start. You are wrong on every single count. So I won't bother except to tell you to step away from the coffee, I know it's morning down under, but sheeeesh.
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post #51 of 114
6/30/10 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Just to offset your penchant for circular argumentation*. Barring an SET amp pushed beyond it's limits vs. a mega watt SS or some similar mis-pairing of course.

It is apparent to everyone here what my intent is, but feel free to take a left turn with it.

SET amp doesn't have to be pushed to its limit to sound different from P-P amp. Obviously you haven't learned about such amp.

Who said all CD players and cables are the same?
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post #52 of 114
6/30/10 at 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

SET amp doesn't have to be pushed to its limit to sound different from P-P amp.

Can you back this up with data?

Quote:
Obviously you haven't learned about such amp.

And yet I introduced SET's into the conversation.

I know single ended from push-pull.
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post #53 of 114
7/1/10 at 4:30am
This whole sub-forum is so dysfunctional, I don't know why we even pretend that we are trying to help any of the original posters. Let's just start some sticky threads about all of the recurrent arguments and leave them out of the rest. Example sticky threads: "Do all DACs sound the same?", "Do all amps sound the same?", "What is the relative importance of room, speakers, amps, preamps, dacs, cables to sound quality?", etc. And when other conflicts arise (which they will), start new sticky threads for them or move the argument to the relevant sticky thread. You know, sort of like taking the fight outside at a bar.

Another idea is to have a 2 channel "get together" somewhere and discuss our differences in person. We could have DBT rooms for all different price levels of gear, including lots and lots of cables. Giz could tell tales of amazing adventures and accomplishments while sipping a Dos Equis. We could have a dark room for Penn and Tess to "listen" together, and a conference room for ChrisWiggles to prove rigorously that mcnarus is full of sh*t. Of course, geek would be wondering around butting into everyone's conversations uninvited being annoying, but that is to be expected. Hey, I may actually leave fully convinced that all well constructed cables sound the same. That would be interesting and I have a feeling this sub-forum would be quite a different place after that.
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post #54 of 114
7/1/10 at 6:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

I have checked the date (not april the first), so I guess this is a wind up??

See, I thought I'd better check before taking it seriously and addressing it seriously, it IS a joke right?

I mean, no-one (surely) actually believes that is some sort of rebuttal of the argument Chris put forward??

Seriously??

So, it is a gag thrown out there to see which idiot would bite isn't it! Isn't it? Please?? No-one is that stupid are they??

Yes I stated it as a fact, yes Chris tried to challenge it, and yes he is wrong just like you.
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post #55 of 114
7/1/10 at 7:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

What you posted on this thread so far and then some. VVV

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18815495

Yeah, I used one word that was inappropriate, however it still applies.

So is that all your going to use as your argument against me. LOL.

Why don't you admit that you don't like what I have to say because it goes against your beliefs so I should be silenced?

Well heres my answer, you might want to turn away from the screen because, IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN!
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post #56 of 114
7/1/10 at 7:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

Yep. Started fine enough. Op asked for advice, obliquely mentioned 'dunno about cables'. First answer straight forward, don't worry about them. Perfectly fine and reasonable answer given the context of the thread.

Then YOU started it off, pushing your cable agenda. And your cable agenda pushing buddies jumped in (including Mr 'I tell lies and cheat and deceive as well as sell expensive cables').

And you have the gall to put cables on the same footing as room treatment? You too seem to becoming a liar.

Is it not true that you yourself state cables are very subtle? (don't make me chase your posts, be a man and admit it and save me the bother). If so, why are you bringing it to the table in a 'help me start my stereo system' thread as WELL as equate it with room treatments?

S*hit Tess, I don't give a flying f*ck what you have in your system, but for christ's sake don't be a hypocrite and change your story when it suits you (subtle one minute when it suits your point, equal to room treatments when it suits another point).



Where was this statement made in the thread? Well done tess, two strikes in one go. I thought we made some little progress in the other thread, now we start again with the same old crap dredged up again.

In any case, if the guy already has his pre and power amps, WHY do we need to advise him on those selections??? So the absence of mention of amps in this thread is NOT saying 'they sound the same'!

Can we have a bit of discriminatory thinking please?

Please, keep this thread FOR THE OP and help him. Don't turn it into your own personal crusade.

So what your really saying only you and others like you can give the OP advice but Tess and others like myself can not even though he specifically asked about them ( cables ). I'll just leave a blank, _____ _____ and have you fill in how I really feel about that.

But it is alright to PUSH YOUR CRUSADE on the OP, ever hear of the word hypocrite?
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post #57 of 114
7/1/10 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

SET amp doesn't have to be pushed to its limit to sound different from P-P amp. Obviously you haven't learned about such amp.

Who said all CD players and cables are the same?

I pretty much think he said sound the same, which after reading many of your post, is what you wholeheartedly agree with.
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post #58 of 114
7/1/10 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

I know single ended from push-pull.

No, you don't. VVV
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Just to offset your penchant for circular argumentation*. Barring an SET amp pushed beyond it's limits vs. a mega watt SS or some similar mis-pairing of course.


Quote:
Can you back this up with data?

Which do you prefer, graphic data or testimonial data?
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post #59 of 114
7/1/10 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

No, you don't. VVV




Which do you prefer, graphic data or testimonial data?

How about both...
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post #60 of 114
7/1/10 at 9:27am
"Another idea is to have a 2 channel "get together" somewhere and discuss our differences in person. We could have DBT rooms for all different price levels of gear, including lots and lots of cables. Giz could tell tales of amazing adventures and accomplishments while sipping a Dos Equis. We could have a dark room for Penn and Tess to "listen" together, and a conference room for ChrisWiggles to prove rigorously that mcnarus is full of sh*t. Of course, geek would be wondering around butting into everyone's conversations uninvited being annoying, but that is to be expected. Hey, I may actually leave fully convinced that all well constructed cables sound the same. That would be interesting and I have a feeling this sub-forum would be quite a different place after that.

I don't care for Dos Equis. I much prefer Schnapps.
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