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PlayStation Plus (one sub supports Vita / PS3 / PS4) - Page 15

post #421 of 1064
"The design and usability of the UI are fantastic."

The UI is from 2004. There is no such thing as a UI from 2004 that is "fantastic". "Serviceable and barely competent" is the best you can hope for from a 2004 UI. You may as well be trying to tell us that bookmaking and printing from 1910 are "fantastic", given the point in the computer's history that we are in. To put it in further perspective, you could have just told tried to tell us that Windows 3.1 has a "fantastic" UI in 1996 when everyone else is using Windows 95, to the same effect.

"By far the biggest problem is the network infrastructure"

I would argue that far greater issues are a lack of clear design focus in the UI, a lack of the right hand knowing what the left hand is doing, and half-implemented features as a strikingly common occurrence. Ever been notified by PSN that a system update is required? Does it just start it for you? No, of course not. It tells you to go somewhere else to do that.

The PS3's interface absolutely reeks of being designed in a vacuum, as if the PS2 and PSP were the only other options available to consumers. They seem to be absolutely blind to everything that is going on around them in the industry.

Everyone else: Do I rant about the PS3? Absolutely. Software that doesn't work worth a damn when there are obvious examples in the wild of far better execution on varying concepts is worthy of every drop of bile that I spit at it. The PS3 makes a pretty good networked media player, and an acceptable Bluray player. Everything it does on the gaming side though? It's fine if it's your only option, but when you own everything else of note that will run a modern game, the PS3 is extremely sad in it's execution and consumer friendliness in comparison.
post #422 of 1064
And, yet--you continue to throw money at it hand over fist when there are alternatives out there...that you already own.

So, Sony thanks you for your continued support of their current business model.

But, by all means, continue to be the frothing angry guy on the corner who has occasional bouts of lucidity that are simply lost in the din of rabid bile spewing forth.


Are you this angry in other aspects of your life, or do you save all of your invectives for what is essentially a hobby?
post #423 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmonkeee View Post

Are you this angry in other aspects of your life, or do you save all of your invectives for what is essentially a hobby?

So personal attacks are now acceptable on AVS?
post #424 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathindustrial View Post

So personal attacks are now acceptable on AVS?

How is that a personal attack? You don't use phrases like "worthy of every drop of bile that I spit at it" if you aren't taking something personally. Have you read his posts? He seems miserable every time he mentions Sony or his PS3. His scorched earth approach to posting here is well known. Or, did you think the word "invective" was an insult? Read my post, again--all I said was that his posts are routinely so over the top that any valid points he might have get lost in the din and "bile that he spits."

Hell, I'll buy the first round of beer for any AVSers who come through Atlanta. This is, after all, a forum about video games. Nothing life or death here. It's a shame that some people can't seem to figure that out.
post #425 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathindustrial View Post

So personal attacks are now acceptable on AVS?

To call that personal attack is a reach. Cordial, no. Neutral, nope. An attack, bit of a stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"The design and usability of the UI are fantastic."

The UI is from 2004. There is no such thing as a UI from 2004 that is "fantastic". "Serviceable and barely competent" is the best you can hope for from a 2004 UI. You may as well be trying to tell us that bookmaking and printing from 1910 are "fantastic", given the point in the computer's history that we are in. To put it in further perspective, you could have just told tried to tell us that Windows 3.1 has a "fantastic" UI in 1996 when everyone else is using Windows 95, to the same effect.

As for the PS3 and it's UI. I love it. Simple yet elegant. You may not think so, but that's a "you problem". For comparisons sake, I would think instead of Windows 3.1 vs Windows 95, it's more like a mercedes c63 vs suped up honda csi with a crazy paint job and crap. Both are "race capable". Both don't suck Per se. I personally would got with the c63.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Everyone else: Do I rant about the PS3? Absolutely. Software that doesn't work worth a damn when there are obvious examples in the wild of far better execution on varying concepts is worthy of every drop of bile that I spit at it. The PS3 makes a pretty good networked media player, and an acceptable Bluray player. Everything it does on the gaming side though? It's fine if it's your only option, but when you own everything else of note that will run a modern game, the PS3 is extremely sad in it's execution and consumer friendliness in comparison.

I own a gaming pc, wii, 360, and PS3. I turn on and us my PS3 far (FAR) more then any of the other options, so for me, I think you are totally wrong. But what would expect being that we are on a PS3 board. Kinda like how it's sad, yet expected, to see someone come to a ps3 board to troll.
post #426 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

The UI is from 2004. There is no such thing as a UI from 2004 that is "fantastic".

All I can say is that I think you're wrong. I think Sony struck design gold with the XMB (launched on PS3 in 2006 BTW). It's since been substantially modified and tweaked along the way; those of us who got a PS3 early on can attest to just how different the interface is now. Yes, it could use a "re-tune," but the core design itself is outstanding. And if you're comparing it to the competition, it's far, far better than its peers. The NXE is a piece of UI garbage cooked up by a marketing team rather than a proper interface team. And the Wii's UI is designed exactly like the Gamecube's old save file manager. So I'm not sure to whom you're referring when you say Sony is working in a vacuum.

EDIT: And your complaint about firmware updates is a network infrastructure issue, which is exactly where I said Sony's biggest weakness is. And, to try to get this thread back on track, Sony would do well to use those PS+ funds to invest directly back into its network operations. That would also be a way to get more than just 10% of their user base paying the $50/yr subscription fee.
post #427 of 1064
"I think Sony struck design gold with the XMB (launched on PS3 in 2006 BTW)"

I think you mean "launched on PSP in 2004", you know, if you're interested in "fact".

"And your complaint about firmware updates is a network infrastructure issue"

Really? So a UI that knows that there is an update, prompts you that the update is required in order to even log in to PSN, and proceeds to give you an on-screen list of instructions to follow to start the update process instead of just starting it for you is a "network" problem? You're positive that this isn't a "disjointed UI" problem with various parts bolted on willy-nilly?

I could go on for pages as to the issues with the PS3's UI. From basic things like accidentally varying black levels between downloading a patch and installing it (ever notice how the background shifts back and forth between gray and black in that process?), to pretty major things like downloading a game and then the UI just sits on the downloaded file until you go over and manually select to install it. You know, because maybe there's a chance that you don't ever want to play the game that you just bought on their digital distribution service, right?

Does NXE show it's marketing roots? Absolutely. It is also extremely fast, handles downloads in a fantastic manner, and updates itself and games in the smoothest manner for the consumer with minimal prompting.

Does the Wii show it's age? Yup. But it is still design theory from 2006, not 2004. It handles downloads and updates in a very mediocre fashion, but the primary interface gets you in to your games and apps faster than anything else out there. Somehow though, when the Wii sees that you need a system update in order to access the store, it just goes ahead and pops you over to the right section and starts the update for you!

Steam? Steam is extremely good on the network side, handling anything cloud, upload, or download related like a goddamn dream. It maybe asks for two too many clicks to start a new game purchase download. It's interface gets updated fairly consistently in an effort to help us manage our growing libraries more efficiently. It also has some pretty good community features built in to it.

Mr. Industrial - bass is on my ignore list for a reason. He rarely provides any actual substance to a thread. I may be vocal about my dissatisfaction with mediocrity, and prone to hyperbole, but at least there are clearly delineated reasons as to my dissatisfaction. bass tends to just walk in and say "You must be a bad person because I don't agree with you!" and that's about it. There is no content, and nothing worthy of discussion to be found there.
post #428 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

The design and usability of the UI are fantastic. Sure, there are some minor oversights with some features here and there, but overall, it's really great IMO.

Let me guess, you probably also think the PS3's web browser is awesome.
post #429 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

I think you mean "launched on PSP in 2004", you know, if you're interested in "fact".

Since you were complaining about the PS3's interface, I thought it would, you know, make sense to talk about when XMB launched on the PS3. Regardless, the interface has been so changed over the past five years, that you can't possibly say that it's on "old" interface. The XMB of 2006 (let alone the PSP's interface from 2004) is not at all the same as the XMB of 2011.

Quote:


Really? So a UI that knows that there is an update, prompts you that the update is required in order to even log in to PSN, and proceeds to give you an on-screen list of instructions to follow to start the update process instead of just starting it for you is a "network" problem?

Yes. That is precisely a network issue. The XMB and PSN are so disassociated from one another (and PSN is so slow and clunky) that whenever something like syncing, updating, downloading, etc. happens, you run into problems with speed and usability. It only seems like an "interface" issue because that's where you see the problem, but that's not where the source of the issue lies.

Quote:


Does NXE show it's marketing roots? Absolutely. It is also extremely fast, handles downloads in a fantastic manner, and updates itself and games in the smoothest manner for the consumer with minimal prompting.

Not to go too far down the route of "console wars" BS, but all of those things are a direct result of XBL's outstanding infrastructure, not of the NXE. The NXE is a bulky, cluttered, ugly, clunky mess. If there was a way to combine the PS3's interface with the 360's network infrastructure, you'd have one hell of a user-friendly console.

Anyhow, could we get this thread back on track now? I only kept up this discussion because I have this dumb belief that Sony might actually use PS+ as a way to finance and test out improvements to PSN.
post #430 of 1064
"Yes. That is precisely a network issue. The XMB and PSN are so disassociated from one another (and PSN is so slow and clunky) that whenever something like syncing, updating, downloading, etc. happens, you run into problems with speed and usability. It only seems like an "interface" issue because that's where you see the problem, but that's not where the source of the issue lies."

You know what, Confidence? I like you. But this? Wow, dude. That is just all I can say. Wow. The distorted logic that tries to show this as making sense? Wow.

Here's the primary source of our disagreement. You seem to think that PSN and XMB are separate items. I will tell you that they are the same damn thing. The above quote is very simply factually wrong, but let's just go ahead and ignore that. For the end user, it does not matter where the "source" of the UI issue lies. The issue is there and that is the only thing that matters.

And just to be clear, you genuinely think that these are different?





Again. Wow, dude.

Oh man! They bolted on some clunky in-game PS button guide access! Totally different!!!1

Following your request to get the thread back on track? The cloud support in PS+ is still terribly implemented. If we're lucky, they'll get this cloud thing functioning in a moderately acceptable fashion sometime in the next six months. Maybe three years. Who knows?! How long did it take them to get cross-game chat working again? Bam! Back on track!
post #431 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Here's the primary source of our disagreement. You seem to think that PSN and XMB are separate items. I will tell you that they are the same damn thing.

That's like saying my iPod interface is the "same damn thing" as Apple's online infrastructure. I suppose from mass consumers' perspectives, it all seems like one seamless "Apple experience." But they're clearly very different beasts.

Quote:


Following your request to get the thread back on track? The cloud support in PS+ is still terribly implemented. If we're lucky, they'll get this cloud thing functioning in a moderately acceptable fashion sometime in the next six months. Maybe three years.

Here, we're agreed. I think this is why they're doing the tiered approach to PSN service. It gives them the opportunity to test out in a controlled (and profitable) environment these new features. That lets Sony finance new ideas and keep them small enough that they can monitor and maintain them easily. In the same way that PS+ gives people access to game betas, it also gives them access to PSN service feature betas (like cloud saves).

I wouldn't expect a major improvement to cloud saving until the next console generation. But by then, we'll all have to pay Sony for basic online features like online gaming, Netflix, and so on. This is likely their chance to make sure they get cloud saving right for the big launch next gen. This is essentially what MS's gaming division did on the original Xbox. They rolled out some early XBL features, hammered out the kinks, and then launched a much better version for the 360.
post #432 of 1064
"That's like saying my iPod interface is the "same damn thing" as Apple's online infrastructure. I suppose from mass consumers' perspectives, it all seems like one seamless "Apple experience." But they're clearly very different beasts."

Right. Except that your argument is that the terrible system update routine is a PSN problem, which is just simply factually incorrect. Here's a basic breakdown:

- Local PS3 software (UI) tries to log in to PSN.
- UI and PSN do a version handshake.
- PSN declares "your version is too old to log in".
- VERY IMPORTANTLY, THE NEXT SEVERAL STEPS ARE ALL IN UI
- UI says "Oh."
- UI tells user that the version is too old.
- UI gives a list of directions to perform to update from within the UI.
- UI ignores the user's desire to log in to PSN until user manually updates.
- User manually navigates to update section of UI.
- UI asks PSN "What's the newest version?"
- PSN responds "Newer than the crap you got!"
- UI downloads update from PSN.
- User selects to install update.
- UI installs update, entirely offline.
- UI reboots.
- UI and PSN do version handshake.
- UI logs in to PSN.

At the point that the UI initially fails the version handshake, UI should just automatically navigate you to the update section and start the process. It doesn't, and that is stupid. Your argument is that UI couldn't possibly navigate you to the update section because PSN won't let it. That makes no sense. My argument is that Sony is just being lazy and consumer unfriendly with it's seven year old UI that it refuses to spend the time and cash on designing properly. "It kinda works, so that's good enough. Let the user stumble around a bit." seems to be the entire design philosophy of the PS3's UI.

The thing is filled with half-designed, forgotten ideas that are obviously still in "released beta" status. Look at the broken web browser. Look at the forgotten Life. Look at the perpetually beta Home. Look at the video player that decides to hit "pause" at the end of a video instead of just going back to the menu. Look at the font selection option. Have some stylistic balls guys, and just pick a font for your UI. The user doesn't ever need to make that choice. Look at the two different video settings menus inside of the Setting menu, plus the additional one inside of the video player. Seriously. They have video settings in three places? All controlling different settings? Look at Hulu that can't handle buffers properly. Look at simple things like the location of icons in the Video menu. Netflix is below the default position, but Hulu is above it? Why? That makes no sense! Group the video apps together so the user can find them easier! Go buy Uncharted 2 for the first time, and watch your screen flick back and forth between Black 0 and Black 16 (gray in 0-255 mode) eighteen times as it installs nine consecutive patches for half an hour. Why do the "download" and "install" sections of the UI use different reference levels? Who knows! Go try to do some PS3 to PSP connectivity and watch the UI error out with a message that suddenly drops in to some disgusting, blurry, 272p-scaled-to-480i garbage that it then vomits out on to your 1080p display.

And seriously, I could go on...

Yes. This UI is a fantastic example of modern design principles. Real cutting edge, consumer friendly stuff there.

Oh, and I notice that you completely skipped over comparing launch PSP XMB with modern PS3 XMB. Not much different to argue over, huh?

ADDITIONAL: Your Apple comparison is actually pretty relevant, but not for the reason that you intended. While the UIs in the hardware are excellent, iTunes suffers from a hell of a lot of the PS3 XMB problems. iTunes is ancient and absolutely shows it's age at being an MP3 management tool that has had a bunch of crap grafted on to it after the fact. It has the same issues of being very disjointed and having drastically different feels in different areas of the UI, with many of the sections feeling very half-finished and forgotten.
post #433 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

your argument is that the terrible system update routine is a PSN problem, which is just simply factually incorrect.

Okay, I now have no idea what your particular stake is in making this point. If you're not trying to parse out what is specifically wrong with the PS3's UI, then I have to agree with the others around here: why are you posting in the Sony forums? You just sound like you're saying "the PS3 sucks" rather than "here's what's specifically wrong and could be fixed." There's a big difference, and that's why folks around here typically dismiss you as an obvious fanboy.

Quote:


Oh, and I notice that you completely skipped over comparing launch PSP XMB with modern PS3 XMB. Not much different to argue over, huh?

I thought I was actually doing you a favor by ignoring that. You're contradicting yourself. Your claim was that the UI is about more than just the basic icons and layout (and includes network issues, background downloads/installs, etc). But then to summarize the UI by showing those comparison pics suggests that you do think the UI is just about just the graphical layout, in which case, your other point (about firmware updates) is moot. Hence I just ignored those pics and thought I was doing you a favor.
post #434 of 1064
"Your claim was that the UI is about more than just the basic icons and layout (and includes network issues, background downloads/installs, etc). But then to summarize the UI by showing those comparison pics suggests that you do think the UI is just about just the graphical layout, in which case, your other point (about firmware updates) is moot."

PSP XMB and PS3 XMB not only look exactly the same, but they function almost exactly the same. They both handle anything download related in the same kludgey way. They both sort media and games in the same "try to find it!" fashion. They both are filled with beta software that has been bolted on and then forgotten. In this case, the pair of screenshots perfectly expresses the function of this singular UI.

"If you're not trying to parse out what is specifically wrong with the PS3's UI,"

So paragraph three in the above, none of that points out specific issues? Want a solution to those issues as well? "Do the opposite of whatever you're doing right now, Sony." There.

Pick a font. Pick a reference level. Pick a single location to put the video settings. Release finished software and solutions, or just don't release them at all. Pick a place to put the video apps. Oh, and don't ever ask the user to manually install anything. If they selected "download" then that means they want to use it, duh. I figured that was all pretty obvious though. Apparently it isn't to Sony, and it isn't to some of us around here.
post #435 of 1064
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

There's a big difference, and that's why folks around here typically dismiss you as an obvious fanboy.

Fanboys work overtime showing their support for something. Flameboys work overtime trying to burn it all down. He's here to flame.
post #436 of 1064
This whole bitch-fest would be easier to follow it darklordjames would learn how to quote.
post #437 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

So paragraph three in the above, none of that points out specific issues?

Not really. You're simply "playing the dozens" and not bothering to say anything constructive, interesting, or worth actual discussion. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by trying to figure out what your point is, but all I can come up with is "Sony sucks." That's totally fine to thinks so. I just don't think this is the place to express it.

EDIT: To try to steer this thread (vaguely) back on course, I will say, however, that your complaint about updates and installs is totally valid. Most folks around here agree that it's a pretty silly process. But I would argue that the problem is again a network issue. Because Sony's network is almost totally divorced from the hardware's user interface, downloads (server side) and installs (console side) have to happen independently. The same is true of firmware updates. In contrast, MS can just regularly update everything server side without bothering their users with constant firmware updates. But because Sony hasn't fully integrated their network and their console interface, we users have to constantly update everything on the console end.

This is exactly why I think it's important to draw the distinction that I did above (between UI and network infrastructure). It actually points to the source of the problem rather than leading to an endless barrage of senseless complaints. Sony has tried to put a band-aid over this problem with some of its PS+ features (auto-updates, for example). But those are really just stop-gap fixes, not real solutions.
post #438 of 1064
"This whole bitch-fest would be easier to follow it darklordjames would learn how to quote."

Maybe you've never noticed before, but there are these magical little things called "quotation marks". The are used for things like quoting text. We've been using them in that fashion for roughly three hundred years. Catch up, will ya?
post #439 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"This whole bitch-fest would be easier to follow it darklordjames would learn how to quote."

Maybe you've never noticed before, but there are these magical little things called "quotation marks". The are used for things like quoting text. We've been using them in that fashion for roughly three hundred years. Catch up, will ya?

See how my post looks, it makes it much easier to follow all of the various quotes in a post. It also takes only 2 seconds to add the quote tags to any line of type. "this is much harder to spot in the post than the below quote"

Quote:


"This whole bitch-fest would be easier to follow it darklordjames would learn how to quote."

Takes a quick highlight post paste and clicking the quote icon above the text entry field.
post #440 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"This whole bitch-fest would be easier to follow it darklordjames would learn how to quote."

Maybe you've never noticed before, but there are these magical little things called "quotation marks". The are used for things like quoting text. We've been using them in that fashion for roughly three hundred years. Catch up, will ya?

"no"
post #441 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Maybe you've never noticed before, but there are these magical little things called "quotation marks". The are used for things like quoting text.

Well, if you insist on using quotation marks, you may want to learn to use them correctly. Hint: they always go outside a period or comma. Periods and commas were small slugs, so the quotation mark helped keep them set. Typesetters from "three hundred years" ago would have just lost a line of type because the period just shifted out of place. Not sure how much you just cost them, but type back then wasn't all that cheap.

And, man, I thought I was doing you yet another favor by giving you an "out" to get back on topic. Instead, you decided to go for the counter-punch. You can lead a horse to water...
post #442 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Well, if you insist on using quotation marks, you may want to learn to use them correctly. Hint: they always go outside a period or comma. Periods and commas were small slugs, so the quotation mark helped keep them set. Typesetters from "three hundred years" ago would have just lost a line of type because the period just shifted out of place. Not sure how much you just cost them, but type back then wasn't all that cheap.

Easily the most fascinating thing that has been posted in here recently.
post #443 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post

Easily the most fascinating thing that has been posted in here recently.

Don't even get me started on the history of italics.
post #444 of 1064
I have to agree with darklordjames on the ui issues. The PS3 UI is just a bunch of stand alone modules thrown together in one package. I'm a programmer and I do backend and UI work. If we ever made a user update their software manually we'd be shot. It should immediately give you the option to download now and just start doing it. And what is with the license agreement I have to sign every time I get an update? I did that when I logged in the first time.

When designing software back ends everything needs to be as modular as possible. This means you can design one piece of functionality and plug it in without knowing very much at all what is going on in the rest of the application.

When designing software front ends (the UI/GUI/whatever you want to call it), it should be done by a small team with everyone being on the same page. It should be consistent throughout. It should minimize the steps user need to take to do anything (especially something that should be completely automated like an update).

Sony seems like they developed both the front end and back end like you would the back end and just started tacking interface parts on as they were built.
post #445 of 1064
It's amazing that people who own a PS3 don't agree with what DLJ has to say about the UI.

Moving on.....

Is there anywhere that I can see what I would be currently eligible for in terms of downloads if I were to buy a PS+ subscription?

I've seen in the weekly store update that they take certain downloads down each month, so I want to make sure I sign up when there is something that I am interested in.

I understand it doesn't work perfectly, but cloud saving and auto-updates are coming to a point where I'm about willing to pay for them. Getting tired of downloading and installing patches before playing games.

I tried looking for a list on the PS site and the blog, but neither of those sites seemed to be laid out in a user friendly fashion.
post #446 of 1064
You should be able to see the current offerings in the PSN storefront under the PS+ header even without a subscription.
post #447 of 1064
Thank you, sir.
post #448 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by RemoWilliams84 View Post

I have to agree with darklordjames on the ui issues. The PS3 UI is just a bunch of stand alone modules thrown together in one package. I'm a programmer and I do backend and UI work. If we ever made a user update their software manually we'd be shot. It should immediately give you the option to download now and just start doing it. And what is with the license agreement I have to sign every time I get an update? I did that when I logged in the first time.

The firmware and features changed, you need to sign. The most obvious one is 3.21 where you had to agree to the fact that you'd no longer have Other OS in exchange for continued use of the PSN.
post #449 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post

The firmware and features changed, you need to sign. The most obvious one is 3.21 where you had to agree to the fact that you'd no longer have Other OS in exchange for continued use of the PSN.

I don't have to do this on the xbox.
post #450 of 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by RemoWilliams84 View Post


I don't have to do this on the xbox.

Have you read that thing, its super long, you dont know what's in there, the "signing" may have something specifically to do with playing blu-rays, replacing hard drives, playing tons of A+ exclusives, wireless rechargeable controllers, etc....




Sorry, couldnt help myself
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