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Samsung Auto Motion Plus not HD Compatible? - Page 3

post #61 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I find this hard to believe. I play blu-ray discs and media player files at 24fps and the ES7500 handles it fine. And this is what CNET said in their recent review of the ES8000:
"The UNES8000 has the best video processing of any TV this year, mainly because of its numerous options that perform well. First and most important, it delivers the correct cadence for 1080p/24 film-based material, namely when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is set to either Off or Custom with a 0 on the "judder reduction" slider. Other AMP settings affected film cadence negatively to my eye; Clear showed the slightly halting cadence of 2:3 pull-down, which is still preferable to the buttery smoothness of Standard and the buttery-while-listening-to-Kenny G smoothness of Smooth.
If you happen to like smoothness, aka the "soap opera effect," you'll appreciate that Custom's "judder reduction" slider actually works well to gradually make the image smoother in subtle stages as you move from 0 to 10 -- in contrast to other makers' TVs, which don't offer nearly that level of customization. The move from 0 to 1 on the slider was actually so subtle that I, an admitted film cadence purist, was half-tempted to watch at 1 instead, since it took a bit of the "edge" off the most juddery sequences.
In terms of motion resolution all modes, with the exception of Off, delivered the full 1,200 lines in my test, and Clear looked the best of the bunch, with a bit less trailing than the rest. To get the full resolution I set Custom's "blur reduction slider" to 10. If you've been paying attention, that means that in Custom, at 0 "judder reduction" and 10 "blur reduction" the UNES8000 actually delivered full motion resolution and correct film cadence, a feat few TVs can match."

I can't see how the tv wouldn't accept 24p content. Like I said, I've been playing blu-rays in 24p and I have no problem at all with stuttering while watching blu-rays, or watching 24p files off my media player when outputting 1080p/24 or 720p/24.
Also - Do you guys actually call these issues in to Samsung via telephone? If not, these issues will never get fixed. A Samsung tech told me a while ago when I called that their firmware fixes get priority based on how many phone calls they get in - they have software that creates a pie-chart of how many calls come in about what problems - the bigger the piece of the pie chart, the more likely they will address it. Complaining on the forum can help to spread the word, and maybe see if there is a common problem, but if you want results, please, call Samsung and report it!

check out my earlier post (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1260297/samsung-auto-motion-plus-not-hd-compatible/30#post_22208047)

what they mean is that the TV cannot accept a 120Hz or 240Hz signal, the maximum is only 60Hz

since 24Hz is under 60Hz, it can be supported (though whether you get 5:5 or 10:10 pulldown instead of the less smooth 2:3 pulldown depends on how AMP is set and which model/year of Samsung you have)
post #62 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I find this hard to believe. I play blu-ray discs and media player files at 24fps and the ES7500 handles it fine. And this is what CNET said in their recent review of the ES8000:
"The UNES8000 has the best video processing of any TV this year, mainly because of its numerous options that perform well. First and most important, it delivers the correct cadence for 1080p/24 film-based material, namely when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is set to either Off or Custom with a 0 on the "judder reduction" slider. Other AMP settings affected film cadence negatively to my eye; Clear showed the slightly halting cadence of 2:3 pull-down, which is still preferable to the buttery smoothness of Standard and the buttery-while-listening-to-Kenny G smoothness of Smooth.
If you happen to like smoothness, aka the "soap opera effect," you'll appreciate that Custom's "judder reduction" slider actually works well to gradually make the image smoother in subtle stages as you move from 0 to 10 -- in contrast to other makers' TVs, which don't offer nearly that level of customization. The move from 0 to 1 on the slider was actually so subtle that I, an admitted film cadence purist, was half-tempted to watch at 1 instead, since it took a bit of the "edge" off the most juddery sequences.
In terms of motion resolution all modes, with the exception of Off, delivered the full 1,200 lines in my test, and Clear looked the best of the bunch, with a bit less trailing than the rest. To get the full resolution I set Custom's "blur reduction slider" to 10. If you've been paying attention, that means that in Custom, at 0 "judder reduction" and 10 "blur reduction" the UNES8000 actually delivered full motion resolution and correct film cadence, a feat few TVs can match."

I can't see how the tv wouldn't accept 24p content. Like I said, I've been playing blu-rays in 24p and I have no problem at all with stuttering while watching blu-rays, or watching 24p files off my media player when outputting 1080p/24 or 720p/24.
Also - Do you guys actually call these issues in to Samsung via telephone? If not, these issues will never get fixed. A Samsung tech told me a while ago when I called that their firmware fixes get priority based on how many phone calls they get in - they have software that creates a pie-chart of how many calls come in about what problems - the bigger the piece of the pie chart, the more likely they will address it. Complaining on the forum can help to spread the word, and maybe see if there is a common problem, but if you want results, please, call Samsung and report it!


In most of the threads the issue is not the TV being able to accept a 24p signal; it’s the Auto Motion Plus not being able to accept a 24p signal. That is what I was getting at. If you set AMP to off, the TV performs just fine, as most people have reported. My issue, and the majority of others, is that the AMP software, or programming, or whatever, does not function correctly. There is an abundance of threads here and on the individual TV posts about this issue with the C and D models. I honestly cannot speak about the E models because I do not own one. Doing some searches, however, I have seen others mention it, but whether that is enough to go by I do not know yet. I have seen others post that they have worked with Samsung and it was not resolved. It is a strange issue because it is hard to repeat. If you rewind the movie it won’t happen again. It is random. But for those of us that have these issues, it is quite distracting. I am glad to read that your E series does not have this problem. Have you tried to watch a blu-ray with AMP on? Or do you leave it off?
post #63 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshfever View Post

In most of the threads the issue is not the TV being able to accept a 24p signal; it’s the Auto Motion Plus not being able to accept a 24p signal. That is what I was getting at. If you set AMP to off, the TV performs just fine, as most people have reported. My issue, and the majority of others, is that the AMP software, or programming, or whatever, does not function correctly. There is an abundance of threads here and on the individual TV posts about this issue with the C and D models. I honestly cannot speak about the E models because I do not own one. Doing some searches, however, I have seen others mention it, but whether that is enough to go by I do not know yet. I have seen others post that they have worked with Samsung and it was not resolved. It is a strange issue because it is hard to repeat. If you rewind the movie it won’t happen again. It is random. But for those of us that have these issues, it is quite distracting. I am glad to read that your E series does not have this problem. Have you tried to watch a blu-ray with AMP on? Or do you leave it off?

the only problem with turning it off is that the set no longer does 5:5 or 10:10 pulldown, which means you get 2:3 pulldown judder with 24fps sources
post #64 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshfever View Post

In most of the threads the issue is not the TV being able to accept a 24p signal; it’s the Auto Motion Plus not being able to accept a 24p signal. That is what I was getting at. If you set AMP to off, the TV performs just fine, as most people have reported. My issue, and the majority of others, is that the AMP software, or programming, or whatever, does not function correctly. There is an abundance of threads here and on the individual TV posts about this issue with the C and D models. I honestly cannot speak about the E models because I do not own one. Doing some searches, however, I have seen others mention it, but whether that is enough to go by I do not know yet. I have seen others post that they have worked with Samsung and it was not resolved. It is a strange issue because it is hard to repeat. If you rewind the movie it won’t happen again. It is random. But for those of us that have these issues, it is quite distracting. I am glad to read that your E series does not have this problem. Have you tried to watch a blu-ray with AMP on? Or do you leave it off?

I understand, and I think I've seen what you and others are referring to here. I tend not to like AMP, since the blur reduction often creates artifacts, and I'm not a fan of the soap opera effect generally, outside of a few limited exceptions. However, the other day when I updated my firmware, it wiped out all my settings, and brought the tv back to factory default settings, which really ticked me off. So I had to go back in and put in all my settings again for each input, which took quite a while. While I was putting in my settings, I noticed that by default AMP was on with motion smoothing, so I could clearly see the soap opera effect while I was tweaking my settings. I noticed during that time quite a bit of stuttering - it looked like the motion smoothing was having a hard time keeping up, for lack of a better description. Everything was buttery smooth, until it wasn't - it looked like it kept dropping frames or freezing for just an instant, enough to be very noticeable. If this is how it always looks when watching with AMP on, I can't see how that would be considered acceptable. I'll have to watch a bit of HDTV with AMP on custom with motion smoothing on, just to see how it behaves with different channels.
post #65 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

the only problem with turning it off is that the set no longer does 5:5 or 10:10 pulldown, which means you get 2:3 pulldown judder with 24fps sources

Thank you for posting that. I was trying to figure that out. Do you know if clear mode handles the cadence correctly?
post #66 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshfever View Post

Thank you for posting that. I was trying to figure that out. Do you know if clear mode handles the cadence correctly?

no, it also does 2:3 pulldown (at least on the LNxxD630, based on CNET's review)

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-ln46d630/4505-6482_7-34468754-2.html?tag=rvwBody;paginate
post #67 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

no, it also does 2:3 pulldown (at least on the LNxxD630, based on CNET's review)
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-ln46d630/4505-6482_7-34468754-2.html?tag=rvwBody;paginate

Weird. I honestly don't know what setting I am going to live with. Because I know that off and clear are not correctly displaying 24fps I am going to convince myself that I am losing quality. Then, I will choose AMP is some variation and then see frame skips. I can foresee a never ending cycle of constantly opening the picture settings menu, mid-film, and changing it. Which drives everyone crazy. URGH!!! Thanks for your replies.
post #68 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshfever View Post

Weird. I honestly don't know what setting I am going to live with. Because I know that off and clear are not correctly displaying 24fps I am going to convince myself that I am losing quality. Then, I will choose AMP is some variation and then see frame skips. I can foresee a never ending cycle of constantly opening the picture settings menu, mid-film, and changing it. Which drives everyone crazy. URGH!!! Thanks for your replies.

If it was me, I'd just turn off AMP altogether and call it a day. 2:3 pulldown judder is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things and when done correctly, it's difficult to tell apart from 5:5 pulldown on a 120Hz set (unless you really go looking for it in camera pans).

On the flipside, the issues with AMP are easily noticeable and hard to ignore.
Edited by PlasmaPZ80U - 7/13/12 at 1:40pm
post #69 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

If it was me, I'd just turn off AMP altogether and call it a day. 2:3 pulldown judder is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things and when done correctly, it's difficult to tell apart from 5:5 pulldown on a 120Hz set (unless you really go looking for it in camera pans).
On the flipside, the issues with AMP are easily noticeable and hard to ignore.

I agree. I have been watching movies with AMP off. I have seen some slight flickering in slow pans, for instance in the opening scene of War of the Worlds, but otherwise it is much better than the complete frame drops that I was seeing before.
post #70 of 156
I've been watching some FiOS the last few days with AMP on custom setting sometimes, just to see how it performs, and I have definitely noticed quite a bit of the stutter people here are referring to. You never know when it's going to happen - it's like the AMP just trips over itself and can't keep up. I'm really very surprised to see this is happening. Disappointing. I'm not much of a fan of the soap opera effect but I have found that on a light setting, it becomes useful at times, depending on the content being viewed. However, this stutter makes it very frustrating to tolerate. Have people been calling in to Samsung about this? One thing I have learned from Samsung is that they give priority to the issues that get the most phone calls - if people aren't calling in about this issue, it will never get remedied. I would like to see this issue addressed. Simply complaining here in the forums and not calling will accomplish nothing.
post #71 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshfever View Post

Weird. I honestly don't know what setting I am going to live with. Because I know that off and clear are not correctly displaying 24fps I am going to convince myself that I am losing quality. Then, I will choose AMP is some variation and then see frame skips. I can foresee a never ending cycle of constantly opening the picture settings menu, mid-film, and changing it. Which drives everyone crazy. URGH!!! Thanks for your replies.

I don't know what model you have but again I'll post the relevant section of CNET's review of the ES8000:

"The UNES8000 has the best video processing of any TV this year, mainly because of its numerous options that perform well. First and most important, it delivers the correct cadence for 1080p/24 film-based material, namely when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is set to either Off or Custom with a 0 on the "judder reduction" slider. Other AMP settings affected film cadence negatively to my eye; Clear showed the slightly halting cadence of 2:3 pull-down, which is still preferable to the buttery smoothness of Standard and the buttery-while-listening-to-Kenny G smoothness of Smooth."

Cadence is only affected when frame interpolation is enabled (judder reduction). As long as AMP is off or judder reduction is set to 0 cadence should be correct, according to CNET.

I'm not sure though how CNET can say the video processing options work so well when clearly there is an issue with stutter when judder reduction is enabled. They mention nothing about the stutter we are seeing. Do they just test these tv's for 5 minutes or do they actually spend some time with them?
post #72 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I don't know what model you have but again I'll post the relevant section of CNET's review of the ES8000:
"The UNES8000 has the best video processing of any TV this year, mainly because of its numerous options that perform well. First and most important, it delivers the correct cadence for 1080p/24 film-based material, namely when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is set to either Off or Custom with a 0 on the "judder reduction" slider. Other AMP settings affected film cadence negatively to my eye; Clear showed the slightly halting cadence of 2:3 pull-down, which is still preferable to the buttery smoothness of Standard and the buttery-while-listening-to-Kenny G smoothness of Smooth."
Cadence is only affected when frame interpolation is enabled (judder reduction). As long as AMP is off or judder reduction is set to 0 cadence should be correct, according to CNET.
I'm not sure though how CNET can say the video processing options work so well when clearly there is an issue with stutter when judder reduction is enabled. They mention nothing about the stutter we are seeing. Do they just test these tv's for 5 minutes or do they actually spend some time with them?

that poster has the D630 LCD, which does 2:3 pulldown with AMP off; check the relevant CNET review to see what I mean
post #73 of 156
Oh I see.

The more I watch the ES7500 with judder reduction on the more frustrated I'm becoming that it doesn't work for more than 30 seconds without dropping frames. It's virtually unusable.
post #74 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Oh I see.
The more I watch the ES7500 with judder reduction on the more frustrated I'm becoming that it doesn't work for more than 30 seconds without dropping frames. It's virtually unusable.

That is really unfortunate that the ES model still has the stutter issue. I was looking to upgrade my TV and now I don't know what I am going to buy. As far as your earlier question, I have seen others mention a complaint to Samsung...Samsung has then replaced hardware on the TV's like motherboards and ect., but that has not helped. I am not sure how many people have complained to Samsung yet. I know I am going to complain.
post #75 of 156
I also will call today and complain. I hope others do the same.
post #76 of 156
I bought Samsung UE46ES7090 about a month ago, and the only reason for that was watching movies through HDMI. I try to solve the problem weeks and all the time I was thinking that the cable was problem (because its 10m long) or DVI to HMDI convertor. The problem is exactly as described in in this topic: stuttering every few seconds with Motion plus turned on when connected with HDMI cable. Altough this does not happen when I watch movies through Wi-Fi but then the image is worse (less sharp).
By the way, this happens to my friend who has LG.
This is so annoying.... I dont know should I try with new expensive cable. Can that be the solution?
Edited by Bora - 7/18/12 at 11:33am
post #77 of 156
No, it's not a cable issue, with HDMI, the signal either gets there or it doesn't.
If you're seeing a picture at all, it's getting there.
post #78 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitra View Post

No, it's not a cable issue, with HDMI, the signal either gets there or it doesn't.
If you're seeing a picture at all, it's getting there.

Are you sure? Because I have distorsions in right upper corner of the screen. Maybe better grafic card and better cable?
post #79 of 156
Bora, may I ask you to detail your setup please?

Video Card, cables etc. Port used, etc etc.
post #80 of 156
As a bit of an FYI for information here, All NVidia cards, and older models of the ATi line are notorious for having this issue, they don't provide true proper timing.
The newer cards 6550 and above in the ATI line have this fixed.
It's still an issue for NVidia, has been for years.
post #81 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitra View Post

As a bit of an FYI for information here, All NVidia cards, and older models of the ATi line are notorious for having this issue, they don't provide true proper timing.
The newer cards 6550 and above in the ATI line have this fixed.
It's still an issue for NVidia, has been for years.

Grafic card Nvidia 9600GT > DVI to HDMI adapter > 10m HDMI cable (http://www.kab24.de/kabel-adapter/rub1~Audio%20HIFI%20Video~rub2~HDMI%20DVI~artnr~4268~func~det~wkid~113371342674276.html ) > Samsung UE46ES7090

Does it mean that new grafic card could (for example ATI 6870) help?
post #82 of 156
Folks, how big of an issue is the stuttering that occurs with AMP? Is it reason enough to not consider the set. I've seen reviews refer to it but state it's very rare.
post #83 of 156
Unfortunately, this problem is not very rare. If you read through this thread, or do a web search, you will see that many people with various different Samsung models are experiencing this frame stuttering problem with AMP on, myself included. IMO, if you plan on engaging the frame interpolation/motion smoothing feature regularly when you watch TV, then you are taking a big gamble if you purchase any Samsung TV as they do not seem to have this technology down pat. If you can live without this feature, then go ahead and get a Sammy as they do have beautiful pictures otherwise. Just keep in mind that you'll be paying extra for a feature that you are not using.
post #84 of 156
There is another thread running about the AMP issue. There have been several suggestions as to how to handle this, but it is obvious there is a problem with AMP causing stuttering, skipped frames for film and blurring for direct viewing of sports, etc. As I understand it, clear helps but it affects the 3:2 pull-down for films that causes the skipped frames and jerkiness. One of the better suggestions was to use the movie mode and set AMP to custom with blurring set to 10 and dejudder set to 0.

You might want to try that to see if it helps.

Otherwise, as the other thread suggests, people need to advise Samsung that there is a problem with the AMP and to voice a request to have it fixed.

It is such a shame that such a good T.V. is marred by something that can make some viewing difficult to watch.
post #85 of 156
Sorry --- Posted in the wrong thread. This was supposed to go into the D700 thread.
post #86 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cibo View Post

There is another thread running about the AMP issue. There have been several suggestions as to how to handle this, but it is obvious there is a problem with AMP causing stuttering, skipped frames for film and blurring for direct viewing of sports, etc. As I understand it, clear helps but it affects the 3:2 pull-down for films that causes the skipped frames and jerkiness. One of the better suggestions was to use the movie mode and set AMP to custom with blurring set to 10 and dejudder set to 0.
You might want to try that to see if it helps.
Otherwise, as the other thread suggests, people need to advise Samsung that there is a problem with the AMP and to voice a request to have it fixed.
It is such a shame that such a good T.V. is marred by something that can make some viewing difficult to watch.

Yeah, it seems the only solution is to either let the BD player do 2:3 pulldown by disabling 1080/24p output or send 1080/24p directly to the TV and set AMP to off or clear and let the TV do 2:3 pulldown instead. Using Custom mode with blur reduction maxed and judder reduction at zero will still result in stuttering and dropped frames (at least when sending 1080/24p directly to the TV... not sure about sending 1080/60p to the TV).
post #87 of 156
We are all frustrated. What is the purpose of having single cable connections then from your receiver to the T.V.? Is that why Samsung and others put 3 or 4 HDMI inputs on the T.V.'s so that you have to set-up each one for the input and hope you can provide good setting for each?

You would think with all of the advances in electronics, these types of things would not be an issue, but getting everybody to conform to common standards is a pipe dream at best.

The real positive is that the engineer on the SamyGo forum seems to understand what is causing the problem, threshold for the AMP kicking in too high and AMP going off and on. The forum notes show that they believe that going into the service menu and changing a UD800 to a UD9500 eliminates the issue. someone volunteered to test this, but no results have been posted yet.
post #88 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cibo View Post

We are all frustrated. What is the purpose of having single cable connections then from your receiver to the T.V.? Is that why Samsung and others put 3 or 4 HDMI inputs on the T.V.'s so that you have to set-up each one for the input and hope you can provide good setting for each?
You would think with all of the advances in electronics, these types of things would not be an issue, but getting everybody to conform to common standards is a pipe dream at best.
The real positive is that the engineer on the SamyGo forum seems to understand what is causing the problem, threshold for the AMP kicking in too high and AMP going off and on. The forum notes show that they believe that going into the service menu and changing a UD800 to a UD9500 eliminates the issue. someone volunteered to test this, but no results have been posted yet.

I am following that thread as well on SamyGo. I tried to register on that site to ask but something is wrong with site because I never receive an email for activation to post. This really needs to be fixed
post #89 of 156
Hey guys, new guy here! I have been pulling my hair out trying to figure this TV out. I just got a UN46ES6500 on Monday and I see all the same judder problems mentioned here. I am glad it isn't just me. I actually had the UN40ES6100 before the 46" through Samsung's exchange program and it had the same problem so I got bumped up to the ES6500 model. I had one of the older models on the capacitor recall list. Anyway, I am one of those dorks who enjoys the "soap opera effect." I have the same terrible issues. With judder reduction off, my TV has motion blur equivalent to a 60Hz TV. I can bump it up to about 2 and I get flickering of on screen items. Examples would be Transformers 3 when they wingsuit around the buildings, hands and legs flicker and vanish. I have been in contact with Samsung numerous times and I will be talking to one of the higher ups tomorrow. I know that a lot of people don't use the judder reduction, but I enjoy it. I agree with some other posters that if it causes the TV issues, why include it? The thing I am noticing is that this thread has gone on for 2 years and Samsung hasn't made any progress so I imagine they won't be. It looks like I will be switching to LG from here on in.

Edit: So I called Samsung and they said there is no one I can talk to that understands the tech and the problem, probably because their tech support is outsourced like everything else. They said I could write a letter or an email to the Office of the President. I did that 2 days ago on the 23rd. I have yet to receive a reply but anxiously awaiting one. I will post back when I hear from them. I am considering going through the Better Business Bureau with a complaint. Maybe if we all band together and hit 'em hard at once, they will get the picture!
Edited by Cooperjs1 - 7/25/12 at 2:44pm
post #90 of 156
My 3 week old ES7100 has the judder issue if I use AMP on any setting other than clear or off and while I may decide I do not like the smoothing effect I would like for it to work properly as an option. Is this purely a software issue that Samsung can fix with a update or is it hardware related and will they provide a fix? Also do other brands of LEDs have similar problems? I looked at the LG LM7600 and 8600 this weekend and they have some appeal.
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