Star Ceilings... Painted or Fiber optics? - Page 7

Thanks for the questions... I am supposed to meet with him tomorrow. I finished painting too late today to get to his office. But, from what he was telling me on that flight... there are some really cool things that you can do with LED's. so, I am interested to see what can be done. I have your questions written down. Any others that can be sent before tomorrow afternoon (MT) can still get asked.

Jeff

BTW.. Tom, did you see the article in Unique Homes magazine? The one about Night Sky Murals is on page 67 (short, but still in there) and then there's one about entertainment rooms, with some home theaters featured, on pages 88 & 89

The only thing that she got wrong was that she said I've done "dozens" of murals, instead of thousands. But, who's counting? :-)

Here's a link to the magazine: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...ee#/84ef8dee/1

Great post. I like the questions... Thanks!




Don't get me wrong... Fiber Optics are nice and better than my mural in some instances, for example if there will be a lot of light on in the room... or you don't want to wait for your eyes to adapt to the dark to see the mural. But, for ease of installation and working on ceilings with duct work (where fiber optics can't be installed)... and for realism, I think that the painted murals are hard to beat when done correctly. And, if you can throw a few outlets up high.... that will only make installing some charging lights that much easier.





It's funny that you asked that question... because just as I was about to answer it for you, I got a call from another interested HT customer asking the same thing. I even asked him if he had asked the question on the AVS forum. Anyway, let me ask you this... Are the sides of your ceiling going to be angled (tray) and then you will have a soffit where the angle meets the wall? That is how I am picturing what you were saying and that's how I will answer. If I misunderstood... please explain it again to me and I will try again.

If you are going with a 7" soffit, that is at the base of an angled tray ceiling... then the top of the tray should be up a foot or two higher than the where the soffit is. Is that correct? If that's the case, then I would suggest angling the inside of the soffit such that when you put in black lights (assuming you are wanting to use black lights) in there so that they will angle up. I think that if this is the case, it would be perfect and 7" would be plenty. I would just suggest checking out the sizes of some black light fixtures, find one that you like and leave enough room for them... and enough outlets.

In the picture at the beginning of this thread, the soffits are angled and the lights work perfectly.





I think that they will do both... leave the lights on and also just to charge the ceiling. If the lights are done correctly so that the black light will cover the entire ceiling, then for those who want to see stars during the movie... they just turn on the lights. And, when I've sat in theater rooms with the black lights on... the light (because it isn't white) hasn't bothered me at all. I had one customer, who was showing me his finished theater turn the lights on for a while so that I could see stars during part of the movie... and then turn them off for the last part. The paint was so charged up from the black lights being on... that the stars glowed softly for almost an hour before the light from the movie washed most of them out. But, in neither case did the stars overpower the movie or distract you in any way.

The black lights do create a nice aura in a room. Again, in the picture at the beginning of this thread, the ceiling is painted a "sky blue" color and it turned out very nice. But, it also does on black ceilings. They are different, but the black light is nice and soft on the eyes... and creates a different look.






I'm not sure what you mean about the fabric. Most of my murals are painted on regular sheet rocked ceilings. Are you planning on having fabric on yours? If so, then the black lights will probably show some lint.... but if they are small enough, they might just look like more stars. :-) As before, if I misunderstood... please help me out.





I have done ceiling panels and fabric here in my shop and then sent them around the world... so that isn't a problem. The size could become a problem if it gets too large, such as to cover an entire ceiling. But, to do a smaller section of fabric (I've done murals on artist canvas and sent them out... and they worked out nicely. I am looking for someone to paint a day-sky on a newer version that I want to produce. Then, it would fit better with most ceiling types and colors because it isn't just a tan canvas.

As for the paint coming of... not a problem. You should see the stack of shirts that I paint in. They go through wash after wash and they still glow as if I had just painted them. In fact, one of the first comments that people make when I am showing them their new ceiling mural is about how bright my shirt is glowing. I think I need to put on a different shirt before showing people from now on so they don't get distracted. :-)





If your ceiling is the type of tray ceiling that I am imagining it... then there should be no problem if you have a black light on each wall. If, on the other hand, the ceiling doesn't angle and the soffit is 7 inches below the actual ceiling height (level from wall to wall)... then it may not reach out to the center. If the lights are angled, or on their sides... you would have a better chance.

Hope that helps!

Jeff

This picture was enhanced to bring out the stars that are very hard to photograph.... but she had to put lights around the room (down low) for the light to be able to miss the beams.

Yeah... he was going into all of that wave length stuff on our flight and I felt like a total imbecile sitting there like a deer in the headlights as he talked. That's why I am going into his office today to meet with him and some tech guy so that they can experiment with the lights and my paint... and to try to explain things to me again. I do have a new bottle of pain meds. for when I leave there though. All I am hoping for is for them to say... This light and this light are great for your paint and they'll charge it from a mile away! But, since that probably won't happen... I am prepared to try to understand what they are telling me. And, I will ask the questions posed here on AVS too. If you don't hear back from me for a few days... it'll be because I will be in a psych ward. :-)

I do a lot of work in Texas and have done some in Wyoming too. You are right, there is nothing like the view of an incredible night sky from a remote location. Like a couple Navy guys on AVS have mentioned.... being out in the middle of the ocean on a moonless night isn't a bad spot to view that sky either!

Mario... 10 inches is better, but let me give this some thought and see if I can offer any suggestions. And, if it is a 12 x 12 room... I think that you should be OK. I'll try to answer more directly tomorrow, if that's OK.

Now, here's a quick report on LED's from my visit today with a LED lighting rep and then with some tech guys. First... I had no clue what they were talking about. But, what I was was seriously cool.

As for charging the glow paint.... it is possible, but it will take some working on things to make it work, but they are working on it.

One question that I had was "If the LEDs were dimmable. Some are and some aren't. But, they have plenty that are... so you should have no problem.

But, what I thought was incredible was a string of LEDs that you could do a whole string of things with... with just a remote control. Forget about having 5 strings of rope lights in a soffit so that you can have different colors lighting up the ceiling for mood. They have a single string of LEDs that will change colors, dim, brighten, flash, serve pizza (OK, not that)... all from a remote.

Think of what you can do with that string along your baseboard, stairs, in a soffit. I almost forgot why I went to visit them today when they handed me the remote and let me play with the lights. My mind is racing with the possibilities right now... and I just wanted to let you guys know what is out there (at least those of you who don't know yet). Anyway, there are some very cool LED products that these guys carry and manufacture.

Let me know if you have any other questions for me to ask them.

As for the LED "Grow" flood lights in the 365nm-405nm range... yes. They worked, but they think that they may have a better light to charge up the paint. We'll see.

Hi Mario...

Thanks for the link to the site. I'm sure that you guys all know more about LED lights than I do, but from what I have seen, there are some great opportunities out there for anyone even halfway creative.

That site has a lot of what I saw when I met with the LED guys. But, I saw some other things that blew me away. I tried to get them to speak slowly and with simple words.... but I was still left hanging. I said, pretend that you are explaining this to my Labrador... which they probably did but I just still couldn't understand most of it. (They did offer me a Milky Bone though).

Here's the deal, too many details fry my brain... but show me what it can do and you've got me and you've got my mind racing with ideas. So, I had fun... and I will peruse the site that you sent.

I'll add more about LEDs when I find out more. But, I am more interested in getting some that will charge up my glow paint. Still have my fingers crossed.

Thanks again!

Jeff

In case Mark doesn't see this posting and answer... I can tell you the last note that he sent me about the paint. First of all, he'd tried a paint from a company that claims that their paint glows for 48 hours... and found that was not the case. NOw, maybe it will, but you would really have to charge it up good, have it in a room that gets zero light in it... and then you would not be able to leave the room. Your eyes would need to stay used to the dark. Any going out into the light would cause you to lose your "Night Eyes" and it would be very hard to see the paint for a long time, once you went back into the room.

Anyway, he'd just tried the other company's paint when mine arrived. I hadn't heard back from him for a few days so I wrote to him to see how my paint was working (he wanted to paint the mural himself).

Here is his rely: "Actually yes I did get them, I painted some stars on the ceiling and they appear a tad brighter, been real busy this week so I didn't have time to see how long they last or play around with figuring out some way to light them that doesn't involve dragging out lights."

So, from that, and then not hearing back from him... I am assuming that it wasn't working out for him the way that he was hoping.

If he sees this post... I'm sure that he will answer with more detail.

As for your ceiling... you do not need a white ceiling for these murals to work. Just know that the darker the ceiling color, the more likely my paint will be to have some show up in the light. Out of, let's say, 5000 stars you might see 50 to 60... and they are usually the constellation stars. And, some of the people I've painted for have said they liked seeing the constellations against the black ceiling. It's a personal thing... and ceiling height has something to do with the number that you will see.

Having black lights in the socket, is definitely the way to go, if you have the room for them. With the flip of a switch you can have them charging and with a special paint that I can use... you would also see a lot of the stars, even during a movie. Just as you can see in this picture...



After the movie is over, if you wanted to see the night sky it probably wouldn't hurt to flip on the black lights for 3 or 4 minutes to boost them back up to their peak levels. Then, you could stay in and sit under them for a few hours and enjoy the night sky.

I have had some people leave the dark theater room and then come back in and not see the stars like they were when they left the room. Again, it's a thing with your eyes and the light. With black lights in the soffits... a quick charge is all that is needed when you come back in, and the lights won't mess with anyone's eyes who might be in the room like white light would... and everyone should see the stars right away.

If you want instant stars at all times, during a movie, after you've been in the bright sun or just on demand... then fiber optics are the way to go. But, just know that you will give up a lot of realism. Fiber Optics are easy to use when you want them on-demand (once the wires are run, holes drilled and clipped and then set in place). There is no doubt about it. But, you do give up realism with fiber.

Not sure that helps... but I would be happy to send you a sample of some stars painted on some dark paper so that you can try it out for yourself in your room. If you will send me a PM... with your address and the color of the paint you are using, I will try to match that as closely as I can. Or, if you can send me a sample of the paint on some sheet rock or piece of wood, I will paint some stars on that and send it back to you. That may be the best option.

Anyway... let me know if you'd like to have me do that. Or, if you are in the Sacramento area, in Texas, Florida, and possibly Wisconsin... I have tentative trips planned to those places in the near future and can drop something by too.

Jeff

The color of the ceiling is called a "Sky Blue" but I forget who he said is the manufacturer. But, it is called "Sky Blue"

Here are a couple of pictures that I took of the room in the light a few months ago when I was out near him painting... and he invited my boy and me over to watch a movie in the finished theater. It was very cool. I also interviewed him about the ceiling color, the soffits and the overall experience of the mural during an movie and with the movie off... and also with the black lights on and off.






Oh, those are black lights in the soffit. He installed 13 - 4 ft black lights. He'd had the white fluorescents at first, but changed them out with black light tubes. It is a great effect.

The clouds would be a great effect too. In fact, if you will go back a page or two.... or three, you will see some pictures of a mural that I painted in Houston for Lawdog2k that has the same blue and clouds painted on it. The day-sky was awesome and I think that the night sky mural on top of it is a great effect. One in the light and another mural in the dark. Now, he did a good job of taking pictures of the mural in the light, with black lights on and in the dark... but you really only see about 1/10th of the actual stars that you can see in person. The camera really has a hard time picking up the stars.

The picture that I have at the beginning of this thread, and also on this page, first of all has black lights on (that fluoresces with my special glow paint/black light paint) but also, the guy who took the picture was a movie producer and had incredible equipment and got his angles right. People have tried for years to capture the stars in pictures and it is difficult. But, I would suggest looking back for Lawdog2k's pics (there are three) and seeing how it turned out. Just remember to multiply the number of stars by about 10. Just a quick note here... all of the stars are not the same size. So, some might think that that is too many stars. But, when you have all of the different sizes together, the 3D look is great and it doesn't seen like too many stars.

Jeff

I would be happy to paint a piece of drywall for you, but it might be easier to send if you just paint some poster paper or an old sheet that is that size and then send it to me. I think that the sheet would work out nicely because it could be stuffed into a priority envelope and there would be no worries about creases. If you want to paint something the color of your ceiling, then I will throw some stars on it for you.

As for the amount of glow paint you would need... that really depends on how you plan to paint it. People paint differently and paint different sized stars. But, I would say that you should be fine with an ounce or two. I wouldn't use that much, but I've been doing this long enough that I know how much paint to put in each star to make it look real. But, if you want to DIY... then I would suggest getting a stencil first (PM me and I will let you know the one that I think is best). And, I will sell you paint, if you'd like, or you can find some online too. Mine is much thicker than what you can find online... and can be thinned down to make about 3 times what you start with. So, if you get an ounce, then you can end up with three ounces by just adding water. But, realize too, that when you thin it, you also reduce the amount of pigments that you'll get per star. I like to paint most of the mural with thick paint and thin it down in parts.

Jeff

Sorry for not answering sooner. The last two weeks, with Christmas, New Year and a couple feet of snow.... plus about 5 murals to paint in between all of that has taken its toll on my time.

I'm sure that if your brother is an artist... that he can probably do a nice job for you. Just have him paint the mural in the dark, as he would paint it in the light. He should have what it takes to do a decent job.



I have thought for years that a lighter colored ceiling is better for a few reasons. First, it is almost impossible to see the paint (when done right) on a light colored ceiling. My bedroom ceiling is what, and has a very light texture to it... and it can not be seen at all.

Now, having said that... I will tell you that I have painted probably hundreds of ceilings that were either black, navy blue or other similar dark colors and have had about 99% of the people like the result. Those that haven't, either didn't make the room dark enough, or didn't get sufficient light to charge the paint correctly. In fact, I just painted a large theater room last Friday that had a black ceiling... and I sat in the room with the customers for over an hour talking and looking at the night sky. They were amazed how nice it looked after an hour had gone by. The next day they wrote to me that they had stayed in the room for another couple of hours with their kids... and the paint was still very visible. One note about the dark colored ceilings... in the light, the stars that make up the constellations will probably be visible. They were in the one that I painted last Friday, but they actually liked that and it didn't bother them. They said it looked good with the dark background.

OK, second... I think that a light colored ceiling will probably reflect the light emitted from the paint more and make it more visible in the dark. But, after doing these murals for years... I haven't noticed a huge difference. I would say that a lighter ceiling color is probably better.... but, again, I have painted these murals on many dark ceilings with great results. So, I think that you should go with whatever you want your room to look like in the light.



Direct sunlight is the best light source possible, but in theater rooms and many other rooms... they are either totally dark or else the sun has gone down hours before a person wants to see the mural. So, an alternate light source is needed. Also, if you leave the dark room and go out into a well lit room for pretty much any length of time... then you will probably either need to stay in the dark room for a while (up to 15 minutes depending on how long the mural has been without light on it and how long you've been out in the light) before you can see the mural the way you did when you left the room. Or, you can flip on a light source for a few minutes to charge up the paint and you will have the mural back up to it's peak level.

That's where the fiber optics is easier than the painted murals. You just flip a switch and you see the little lights. With a painted mural, you need to shine direct fluorescent light on the paint for a few minutes to see the night sky.

My experiment with LED lights didn't turn up much positive results... so I am still recommending black lights or white fluorescent light. Halogens, I've been told will also work. But, the problem I see with that is that they are so bright that you will almost need to wear welders goggles to keep your eyes used to the dark enough to see the mural when you turn out the lights. Black lights charge up the paint extremely well... and don't really mess with your "night eyes".

But yes, I have had good results with Halogen lights and so have customers.



Yes, for me... black lights are the best. They seem to let off the right amount of specific light needed to charge up the paint so that it glows nicely. As for distance... you can't get too close to the paint with the black light... and as for how far away you can put the light... that would depend on how powerful a light you have. As you can see in the first picture in this thread, that is a good size theater room and his black lights are at least 11 feet from the center of the room and the paint in the center is charged up just fine. I have an "American DJ UV Panel HP" black light that I got to try out... and it charges my bedroom ceiling nicely, which is about 12 feet high at the high end... and the furthest point of the ceiling is about 15 feet away from the light. If you have a 15 inch 14 watt black light (like the one that I travel with... you would need to be closer to the ceiling for it to really charge up the paint. But, I also will put it on the floor of rooms with high ceilings as I am folding up my drop cloths and it charges the paint too. So, I would get a light or two and experiment. Then, get more if you need them.



I have stopped letting others paint under the Night Sky Murals name because of some painters who were not doing the job I was hoping they would and they didn't treat the customers right... so I am more open to letting people buy paint from me. I just have to be careful that it is DIY'ers and not others who paint similar murals. That has happened before. I mix my own paint to work best with the murals that I paint. But, there are many places where you could buy good paint. I think that we all use the same pigments these days (which is the important thing)... and usually only the thickness is different. I didn't like what I could find, so I make my own. But, that is because I liek my paint a certain way and I like to have more pigments in the paint to hold a good charge. BUt, I could probably find you a good supplier in the UK who could probably sell you some good paint. That way you would save a lot of shipping by doing it that way.



Have your brother be sure that he can paint a night sky. Otherwise, I would suggest getting a stencil off of the Internet ( I was working on one but got stuck with finding a machine to drill all of the holes I wanted in mine) and using it as a guide. As I've mentioned before, I have found one that I like better than many others on the market. It is basic but much better made than anything else out there. Email me or send me a PM and I will send you a link to their site.

Also, I'm thinking that there has to be a painter somewhere in the UK who could do a good job for you too. There are a lot of really bad muralist who say they can do a nice night sky... but you really need to be careful. I would also be happy to help you find someone if you want to go that route.



Well... if you can deal with either installing lights to charge the paint, or put up with the inconvenience of putting a light out for a few minutes to charge the paint... then a painted mural, even with the most basic stencil, is as good, or better than most fiber optic ceilings. Fiber optics are nice if you want to drill holes in your ceiling and run wires and tubing to each hole... (which seems a little inconvenient to me)... but you should be really happy with the end result of a painted mural whether your brother paints it, if you have a painter do it, or if you use a stencil. Just make the room as dark as you can and get a good light source.

Good luck,

Jeff

Hi SoberParty and HuskerOmaha... Thanks for you nice comments! The picture you reposted HuskerOmaha is one of the best that I have ever received from a customer. It was taken by a friend of the customer, who is a movie producer, who had the right equipment to get the shot. Without the black lights on it would be almost impossible to get the picture to come out like this. But, there is nothing like seeing the mural in total darkness. For that... you need to be in the theater room, bedroom, or wherever the mural is.

I have a few other customers who have told me they can get pictures of their murals... and I will post them if they actually can.

I'm not quite sure that I understand the question. Are you asking if the painted mural, with the glow paint and fluorescing additive would work on a flat black ceiling? I will answer that question... and if you are talking about something totally different then please re-ask and I will answer again. Sorry, my brain went to sleep an hour ago.

The paint that I use is very hard to see on a ceiling that is anywhere between white and any color that is starting to get pretty dark. Some charcoal grays are about the end of the invisible scale. So, flat black will most likely show some of the stars when the lights are turned on.

Usually, it is only the larger stars (stars used to make the constellations) that are visible as well as a few of the larger background stars (I use about 15 different sized smaller stars for the background to give it the 3D look. Some of the larger of those stars might also be visible in the light too... but usually not very many.

When the black lights are turned on... the stars will be a blue color (you might need to play with the black light placements to get them just right to get the most stars to fluoresce). When the black lights are turned off, the stars will glow an Aqua color, with some glowing blue.

I hope this is what you were asking. again, if not, then please ask again or else feel free to email your questions to me.

Jeff