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Sony 2010 XBR-xxHX909 Settings Discussion - Page 7

post #181 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikek753 View Post
Are all HDMI (1-4) the same? Or some is PC specific.
Somehow I don't see 1:1 pixel.
I use HDMI1 and it's set to Full-Pixel.
The text from PC is washed out.

tnx
I though the RGB input was designated for PC use. HDMI #1 is the ARC terminal.
post #182 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by loudog2 View Post
I though the RGB input was designated for PC use. HDMI #1 is the ARC terminal.
no RGB is for something else - like WII or older 480p
my PC has hdmi and DVI that set to output 1920x1080 at 60hz
post #183 of 434
2 mikek753

hey, i am also using Hx900 with PC. also wondering if hdmi differs from other inputs somehow.
Did you try Scaling option in your ATI/NVIDIA control panel? it fixes pixel mapping sometimes.
to do full pixel test i just run MS paint and draw rectangular one-pixel thin shapes and see if all lines across the screen are identical. in my case, i have them all identical in thickness but somehow horizontal lines are a bit thinner than vertical ones - is it a UV2A panel feature, or something is messed up on subpixel level?

also, if you don't see all levels(squares) in white saturation test, make sure you have set proper pixel format in videocard settings
post #184 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by eugle View Post
2 mikek753

hey, i am also using Hx900 with PC. also wondering if hdmi differs from other inputs somehow.
Did you try Scaling option in your ATI/NVIDIA control panel? it fixes pixel mapping sometimes.
to do full pixel test i just run MS paint and draw rectangular one-pixel thin shapes and see if all lines across the screen are identical. in my case, i have them all identical in thickness but somehow horizontal lines are a bit thinner than vertical ones - is it a UV2A panel feature, or something is messed up on subpixel level?

also, if you don't see all levels(squares) in white saturation test, make sure you have set proper pixel format in videocard settings
thanks.
I'll try it.
No I don't use any scale / over/underscan on video card. I use ATI 6xxx with 10.12 drivers
post #185 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post


If you are watching the TV in perfectly dark room, you should try to set your backlit to 2 or 3. Please let us know if this reduce the "blooming" effect.

With the backlight at 2, and using the 2D settings Doug lists in post one of this thread, the "halo" or "blooming" effect is still very noticeable. HOWEVER, this is the case where the BD player transitions, and displays a solid black screen with a small white icon. This doesn't affect the actual viewing experience. At least, I don't think it does. The case where I really want local dimming to work without halos is when "letterbox bars" are displayed. So far, my experience with this set is that I cannot discern the black bars from the edge of the screen from a normal viewing distance, except when the scene is very bright. In bright scenes, the display illuminates the room, so of course you can see. I mean, when the moon displays just a crescent, you can see the rest of the moon if you look carefully enough, and I think we can agree that it's pretty dark up there So I keep my expectations reasonable and I limit my expectations to my movie viewing experience, not what a test pattern tells me. I wish I didn't see the halo effect, though it's much better than the cloudy appearance of edge-lit LED backlit screens, an if there's a way I can get rid of the effect I will want to use it.

From my experience with this set, I think local dimming/dynamic backlighting is great, and the greater the number of local dimming "zones", the better.
post #186 of 434
how to know what is input refresh rate HZ and what is display refresh rate HZ?
I try to set up my HTPC with B-Ray drive to play B-Ray disk at the best possible settings.
HTPC can output at 23 and 24 and 60 Hz.
How to set TV to show it at 120 or even 240 Hz?
How to know what refresh rate it uses?
Is that MotionFlow settings? and which one is 24 hz, 60, 120 or 240 hz?

how to get into TV Demo mode that shows half screen split?

tnx
post #187 of 434
As one of the first to puchase this awesome set at an unbelieveable (and impossible to resist) price at Fry's, I have been enjoying this set for just about 2 months now. Love the picture. Don't see any problems in PQ. Purchased BluRay Essentials to "fine tune" and haven't even felt the need to make adjustments yet! (Haven't gone 3D yet, but got all the equipment... Santa just brought some 3D movies & the kids' 2 set of glasses ) So I am either watching the best LED LCD TV around... or my ageing eyes have failed me more than I realize!

I must be honest and let you all know, I am experiencing some frustration thou...

I get these *#$% audio drops!

They last about 1 to 3 seconds. They are coming from my BDP-s470 Bluray player. Regular DVD's and Bluray. Rewinding & replaying shows no drop. Connected via 3' high speed with ethernet HDMI cable (monoprice). Audio out is "auto" I believe, and pushing "audio" on the remote (Bluray, not TV) changes thru french, spanish, english (Dolby 5.1 at __mb/s)

What's going on? I have not experienced this (to my knowledge) from my Comcast/Infinity cable service. (My wife did state that she & the kids were watching cable TV when it happened to them once, but this time, besides the audio drop out for a few seconds, this was accompanied by loss of the video signal (with a blank screen) also. I would have to guess at this point that the cable "losses" were just a hick-up with comcast since it's only happened once. But what about DVD/Bluray playback???? What's going on??? Anyone care to help/comment/point out my obvious oversight of something incredibly basic ? Thanks in advance for any help. I hope all your Christmases were all you hoped it would be, and 2011 is even better than than 2010!


Edit: sorry, at work so not in front of the things... going by memory... which may be worse than my vision!!! Also forgot to say I have two 3' HDMI cables, one for cable box, one for Bluray. switched em around, changed inputs, no difference I can tell/hear.
post #188 of 434
Thread Starter 
Sounds like you're having problems with the handshake or HDCP (copy protection). This should NOT be happening with the Sony TV/Sony BD player combo - I used the same combo with no trouble. Try disconnecting the cable/satellite completely and see if Blu-ray works correctly.

Are you using an AVR/processor? Or is everything directly connected to the TV? If you have an AVR/processor, bypass it and see if the TV works right with the other components one-at-a-time. This will isolate where the problem comes from.

I've never used that particular Monoprice HDMI cable, though I have quite a few Monoprice high-speed HDMI cables WITHOUT Ethernet and they all work fine. Have you got an HDMI cable WITHOUT Ethernet that you can try? That would be worth experimenting with also. I'm not sure what happens if you use a "with Ethernet" HDMI cable on an HDMI product that does not have or support the Ethernet capability. Shouldn't make a difference, but you never know until you have eliminated the possible issues.
post #189 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTrauma View Post

I get these *#$% audio drops!

They last about 1 to 3 seconds. They are coming from my BDP-s470 Bluray player. Regular DVD's and Bluray. Rewinding & replaying shows no drop. Connected via 3' high speed with ethernet HDMI cable (monoprice). Audio out is "auto" I believe, and pushing "audio" on the remote (Bluray, not TV) changes thru french, spanish, english (Dolby 5.1 at __mb/s)

What's going on? I have not experienced this (to my knowledge) from my Comcast/Infinity cable service. (My wife did state that she & the kids were watching cable TV when it happened to them once, but this time, besides the audio drop out for a few seconds, this was accompanied by loss of the video signal (with a blank screen) also. I would have to guess at this point that the cable "losses" were just a hick-up with comcast since it's only happened once. But what about DVD/Bluray playback???? What's going on??? Anyone care to help/comment/point out my obvious oversight of something incredibly basic ? Thanks in advance for any help. I hope all your Christmases were all you hoped it would be, and 2011 is even better than than 2010!

Edit: sorry, at work so not in front of the things... going by memory... which may be worse than my vision!!! Also forgot to say I have two 3' HDMI cables, one for cable box, one for Bluray. switched em around, changed inputs, no difference I can tell/hear.


Is hdmi control enabled on any of the three units? If so, disable it, and test.
post #190 of 434
I thought this set did support HDMI w/ Ethernet capability. Did i just buy the wrong cables from monoprice or waste extra money on the ethernet capability aspect of them?
post #191 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolemite_1
I thought this set did support HDMI w/ Ethernet capability. Did i just buy the wrong cables from monoprice or waste extra money on the ethernet capability aspect of them?
This set definitely does not have HDMI with Ethernet capability, although it does have HDMI Audio Return Channel capability. You did spend a bit more than necessary on the cable.
post #192 of 434
I bought this tv yesterday, spent hours calibrating & testing out movies of all times (colorful ones, others displaying deep blacks, etc.) & I came away thinking I'm proud of my purchase.

However,

I put on The Descent, the blood pool scene, & I couldn't believe what I saw. The blacks suddenly became riddled with what looks like static/white noise, as if the LEDS were having a seizure. Those who own this movie, PLEASE demo this scene.

Another was The Wolfman, the introduction with the man walking through the woods. At first impression the blacks were excellent, however as it went along it became blue-ish,light grey. Anyone experience this?

Tips/Suggestions/Calibration settings to help with this issue HIGHLY welcomed!
post #193 of 434
Thanks for all your responses, much appreciated and I will be doing some playing with these recommendations

Side note... Finally set up (wired) network access, did the downloads for the TV and the Bluray player (S470) to ensure the 3D DVD's Santa brought would play...

side note... found out going back thru "set up" of the Bluray, it was set to output via component, not HDMI! When the Bluray powers up, it will A) turn the TV on and switch to Bluray via HDMI... or B) switch to Bluray via HDMI when the TV is already on (and watching cable). Anyways, the signal says it's going to the TV via HDMI, plus otherwise I wouldn't get a picture or sound at all...

...but maybe one or both of the above corrected what was happening. I haven't had that much time infront of the thing since the changes, but I haven't noticed the drop since both changes made. Time will tell, and I'll report back when I'm sure.

Edit: Yup, high speed with ethernet really is a bit overkill, but compatibility should not be a problem, and just "future proofing" for pennies really!
post #194 of 434
I have had this set for several months now, and have been using Doug Blackburn's settings recommendations. Recently, I used several test Blu-Ray disks to check the settings (Spears & Munsil, and the new Disney WOW), and I am noticing what I think are peculiar results.

On the PLUGE test pattern on Spears & Munsil, for example, I am supposed to be seeing four vertical bars if the brightness is turned high enough. However, even with brightness at Max, only the two right bars are visible. And on the contrast test pattern, I am only seeing black bars 18-20 at the top of the screen, regardless of the contrast setting.

On the Disney WOW disk, the best result on the contrast test screen is a setting of 99 or Max. This seems high.

Has anyone else attempted to use either of these disks with the HX909? If so, are you seeing similar anomalies? BTW, my display seems to be optimized with a brightness setting of 48, and a contrast setting of 90.
post #195 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have had this set for several months now, and have been using Doug Blackburn's settings recommendations. Recently, I used several test Blu-Ray disks to check the settings (Spears & Munsil, and the new Disney WOW), and I am noticing what I think are peculiar results.

On the PLUGE test pattern on Spears & Munsil, for example, I am supposed to be seeing four vertical bars if the brightness is turned high enough. However, even with brightness at Max, only the two right bars are visible. And on the contrast test pattern, I am only seeing black bars 18-20 at the top of the screen, regardless of the contrast setting.

On the Disney WOW disk, the best result on the contrast test screen is a setting of 99 or Max. This seems high.

Has anyone else attempted to use either of these disks with the HX909? If so, are you seeing similar anomalies? BTW, my display seems to be optimized with a brightness setting of 48, and a contrast setting of 90.

The WOW disk is e worst I have ever used, I would avoid it. Stick with what looks best.
post #196 of 434
Use Doug's setting, then use spears to adjust sharpness levels.
post #197 of 434
I received a reply from Spears & Munsil. The reason why the vertical bars are not appearing in the PLUGE pattern is that white is being clipped. I ran an HDMI cable directly to the Sony, bypassing my Denon 4311, and nothing changed, so the Sony is the source of the clipping. Regardless of whether it it is clipping or not, I find the picture excellent, and am sticking with Doug's settings recommendations.
post #198 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I received a reply from Spears & Munsil. The reason why the vertical bars are not appearing in the PLUGE pattern is that white is being clipped. I ran an HDMI cable directly to the Sony, bypassing my Denon 4311, and nothing changed, so the Sony is the source of the clipping. Regardless of whether it it is clipping or not, I find the picture excellent, and am sticking with Doug's settings recommendations.

If you're using his suggestion of running RGB to the tv instead of ycbcr, the top portion of white will be slightly clipped as you found, but overall you will have a much more detailed picture, esp. If you're using a ps3. Other players I cannot speak for, but the playstation is far and away the best blu ray player in the world.

Omar
post #199 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTrauma
When the Bluray powers up, it will A) turn the TV on and switch to Bluray via HDMI... or B) switch to Bluray via HDMI when the TV is already on (and watching cable).

haven't noticed the drop since both changes made. Time will tell, and I'll report back when I'm sure.

Edit: Yup, high speed with ethernet really is a bit overkill, but compatibility should not be a problem
1) Yay, it's fixed!
2) The Blu-ray player is powering on the TV and changing it's input because you have the CEC feature enabled. This is a preference setting - Settings--Channels&Inputs--HDMI Settings--Control for HDMI. You have this ON. With it ON, you can enable "TV Auto Power On". No harm in doing so; it's your preference.
3) An ordinary HDMI cable has four twisted, shielded pairs. An HDMI with Ethernet cable twists and shields a fifth pair in the cable. It doesn't add any pins; three pins that previously went straight thru are now a shielded pair (a pin that's used as a ground is constructed as a shield around a twisted pair, the twisted pair are the 5v hot plug and what was previously the Reserved pin). No harm at all using it with ordinary HDMI equipment.
post #200 of 434
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have had this set for several months now, and have been using Doug Blackburn's settings recommendations. Recently, I used several test Blu-Ray disks to check the settings (Spears & Munsil, and the new Disney WOW), and I am noticing what I think are peculiar results.

On the PLUGE test pattern on Spears & Munsil, for example, I am supposed to be seeing four vertical bars if the brightness is turned high enough. However, even with brightness at Max, only the two right bars are visible. And on the contrast test pattern, I am only seeing black bars 18-20 at the top of the screen, regardless of the contrast setting.

On the Disney WOW disk, the best result on the contrast test screen is a setting of 99 or Max. This seems high.

Has anyone else attempted to use either of these disks with the HX909? If so, are you seeing similar anomalies? BTW, my display seems to be optimized with a brightness setting of 48, and a contrast setting of 90.

I haven't seen the S&M or WOW discs, but most setup discs instruct you to set the Contrast level as high as it will possibly go... NOT getting it set to the best possible setting for dark room (or nearly dark room) viewing. This is WRONG, IMO. Those discs mislead everybody that uses them. In the days of CRTs, you probably did want to use the highest possible contrast setting that didn't create problems. Todays displays often get much too bright, especially if you follow the disc instructions.

The problem is this... there is no disc on the planet that can tell you when you have Contrast set so that 100% white is in the 30-40 fL range. Why 30-40 fL? This is bright enough for satisfying images, but dim enough that the darkness around the TV doesn't cause eyestrain (a feeling your eyes have had a workout or even a light headache after viewing an entire movie). We know this is the right luminance level from decades of experience. No disc can tell you when you have Contrast set so that 100% white is between 30 and 40 fL. The only thing that can tell you that is a meter. So... without a meter, you have to guess at what the best setting for Contrast is. All you can really do is set Contrast low-ish and over time, increase the setting 2 or 3 clicks at a time until you notice that after 2 or 3 hours of viewing, your eyes feel "tired" or you have a slight headache. If you can watch for 2 or 3 hours and feel no fatigue in your eyes at all, you can increase the Contrast setting a few more steps and next time you watch for 2 or 3 hours in a row, you can judge whether that new setting is too bright or still NOT too bright. This way you will eventually sneak-up on the 30-40 fL range for luminance (brightness of 100% white in this case). Any instructions that came with a test/setup disc that talk about finding the highest setting where the pattern looks right -- those are all giving you what I feel is badly outdated advice.

Now... all that said... there is some value in knowing what what the maximum setting is for the Contrast control that doesn't cause problems. If you have a room with widows and have to deal with daylight or light from lamps (or both), knowing how bright you can make the TV without bad problems popping up is GOOD to know. But you'll only use that maximum setting when the room is well-lit with daylight or lamps (or both). It would be very rare to use the max setting in a dark room (there are some displays that are THX certified where the 100% white level will be close to correct for a dark room and you may want to know for THOSE specific cases what your max Contrast setting should be).
post #201 of 434
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

If you're using his suggestion of running RGB to the tv instead of ycbcr, the top portion of white will be slightly clipped as you found, but overall you will have a much more detailed picture, esp. If you're using a ps3. Other players I cannot speak for, but the playstation is far and away the best blu ray player in the world.

Omar


Aren't you speaking for "other players" when you say "the playstation is far and away the best blu-ray player in the world"?

I would argue that 2 years ago, the PS3 and the Oppo BDP-83 were the only accurate Blu-ray players, but the others weren't horrible. The others were just a little less accurate, but the errors were low-enough in magnitude that few, if any, humans could SEE the errors. I've done a blind test (recently) with a PS3, a $200 MSRP Sony 3D Blu-ray player, and a Toshiba 3D player (also not very expensive) with 3 copies of Casino Royale. The PS3 settings were the ones documented in the PS3 FAQ (AVS), the Sony and Toshiba players had anything that would change the video turned off. The video display had the same settings for all 3 inputs. Audio was off for the whole blind test so there was no distraction from the sound of the movie. I couldn't see any differences between those players (all were in 24p mode also). No variations in color, no variations in luminance, no variations in perceived gamma, no visible differences in grayscale steps (I did look at test patterns on all 3 using DVE HD Basics). In short, I couldn't tell one from another. This was, of course, done with HDMI. All bets are off if you are using component video.

Blu-ray players don't really have a very difficult job... all they need to do is retrieve 1s and 0s from Blu-ray discs, convert the video format from YCbCr 4:2:0 (on the disc) to YCbCr 4:2:2 (transmitted to the video display), and do it all without changing any 1s to 0s and without changing any 0s to 1s. That's really not that difficult to do, especially given 4 years of experience to correct the problems in previous player generations. The PS3 isn't even the fastest-loading Blu-ray player any more... many are equally fast now and a few are even faster.
post #202 of 434
Does anyone else have a problem with Motionflow while having subtitles on? Especially during panned shots. I understand that having Motionflow off eliminates this, but I enjoy the smooth picture especially during action scenes like the indy racing scene in Iron Man 2, so I currently have it on 'Smooth'. I'm wondering how to minimalize this problem?

Also, could someone breakdown concisely what each feature of Motionflow & Cinemotion do? & the effect each different pairings may have.

Thanks everyone.
post #203 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by omarindeed View Post

Does anyone else have a problem with Motionflow while having subtitles on? Especially during panned shots. I understand that having Motionflow off eliminates this, but I enjoy the smooth picture especially during action scenes like the indy racing scene in Iron Man 2, so I currently have it on 'Smooth'. I'm wondering how to minimalize this problem?

Also, could someone breakdown concisely what each feature of Motionflow & Cinemotion do? & the effect each different pairings may have.

Thanks everyone.

Unfortunately, having subtitles overlaying the image is the one thing that will consistently trip up motionflow with this TV. (and the local dimming, to some extent)

I would try the various motionflow modes and see if any are better than smooth for this. (I use Clear Plus/Clear 2 with mine)

The only solution for this really is to either use a HTPC or Blu-ray player capable of shifting the subtitles outside of the picture area into the letterbox bars. (or disable subtitles)


Smooth seems to interpolate with a preference for smooth motion, with no concern for whether or not the image speeds up.

Standard seems to interpolate to improve motion but with as little sped-up motion as possible.

Clear is the same idea as standard, but in addition to the 240Hz motionflow processing, it uses backlight scanning to further improve motion sharpness. (considerably, in my opinion) Backlight needs to be set +1 notch to keep brightness the same as Smooth/Standard/Off.

Clear 2/Clear Plus is the same as clear, but with much more backlight scanning. This is the sharpest mode with the set, but is considerably dimmer. Backlight needs to be set to maximum in most cases to compensate for this. (and even that may not be bright enough for some rooms)

While Clear 2/Plus is sharper with motion, I have noticed that there can sometimes a bit more judder as a result of this. The sharper the image is in motion, the more obvious judder is going to be, so the slight blurring that you get with Clear rather than Clear 2/Plus may actually be better in some cases.


Cinemotion/Film Mode seems to be for 3:2 pulldown with this set, and should only affect films being played back at 60Hz. I use 24p for film and have seen no difference with the settings.

Auto 1 should interpolate with a preference for smoothness rather than film-like motion.
Auto 2 should display motion with film as intended.
post #204 of 434
True Doug, most of my experimentation was with earlier players. I've not kept up over the past couple of years. However for RGB conversion, is the PS3 not still the only player that does 12 bit processing? That is the reason you noticed a better picture on this set with RGB input, the TV's processing is inferior, at least it certainly is on my hx 800, and this is easily demonstrated on the moving chroma pattern on the DVE blu ray. When a ycbcr signal is sent to the set, significant banding/loss of information shows up on the moving chroma pattern, when the PS3 is allowed to do the processing, the pattern is perfect--no banding or artifacts, full detail present.

Omar
post #205 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post


Aren't you speaking for "other players" when you say "the playstation is far and away the best blu-ray player in the world"?

The PS3 isn't even the fastest-loading Blu-ray player any more... many are equally fast now and a few are even faster.

I would say that the PS/3 has *consistently* been the best Blu-ray player. What I mean is that, for three solid years, the PS/3 has consistently been a high-quality, high-performance, high-compatibility Blu-ray player. It has a very fast CPU, and a large installed base which keeps it's firmware better maintained than others, and the add-on software quality (Netflix, Vudu, etc) run very fast, with little difficulty. My biggest gripe is its lack of an IR remote, and the "fat" model I have lacks CEC. OTOH, the Bluetooth Sony remote is cheap and effective.

While it may not perform better than a BD player that's half the cost, it is more likely that it will be more compatible than that player in one or two year's time. This is what I mean by "consistently" better.
post #206 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

Unfortunately, having subtitles overlaying the image is the one thing that will consistently trip up motionflow with this TV. (and the local dimming, to some extent)

I would try the various motionflow modes and see if any are better than smooth for this. (I use Clear Plus/Clear 2 with mine)

The only solution for this really is to either use a HTPC or Blu-ray player capable of shifting the subtitles outside of the picture area into the letterbox bars. (or disable subtitles)


Smooth seems to interpolate with a preference for smooth motion, with no concern for whether or not the image speeds up.

Standard seems to interpolate to improve motion but with as little sped-up motion as possible.

Clear is the same idea as standard, but in addition to the 240Hz motionflow processing, it uses backlight scanning to further improve motion sharpness. (considerably, in my opinion) Backlight needs to be set +1 notch to keep brightness the same as Smooth/Standard/Off.

Clear 2/Clear Plus is the same as clear, but with much more backlight scanning. This is the sharpest mode with the set, but is considerably dimmer. Backlight needs to be set to maximum in most cases to compensate for this. (and even that may not be bright enough for some rooms)

While Clear 2/Plus is sharper with motion, I have noticed that there can sometimes a bit more judder as a result of this. The sharper the image is in motion, the more obvious judder is going to be, so the slight blurring that you get with Clear rather than Clear 2/Plus may actually be better in some cases.


Cinemotion/Film Mode seems to be for 3:2 pulldown with this set, and should only affect films being played back at 60Hz. I use 24p for film and have seen no difference with the settings.

Auto 1 should interpolate with a preference for smoothness rather than film-like motion.
Auto 2 should display motion with film as intended.

Thanks for the informative response. Unfortunate about the subtitles, but I'm now given something to think about & try out. Cheers.
post #207 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I haven't seen the S&M or WOW discs, but most setup discs instruct you to set the Contrast level as high as it will possibly go... NOT getting it set to the best possible setting for dark room (or nearly dark room) viewing. This is WRONG, IMO. Those discs mislead everybody that uses them. In the days of CRTs, you probably did want to use the highest possible contrast setting that didn't create problems. Todays displays often get much too bright, especially if you follow the disc instructions.

The problem is this... there is no disc on the planet that can tell you when you have Contrast set so that 100% white is in the 30-40 fL range. Why 30-40 fL? This is bright enough for satisfying images, but dim enough that the darkness around the TV doesn't cause eyestrain (a feeling your eyes have had a workout or even a light headache after viewing an entire movie). We know this is the right luminance level from decades of experience. No disc can tell you when you have Contrast set so that 100% white is between 30 and 40 fL. The only thing that can tell you that is a meter. So... without a meter, you have to guess at what the best setting for Contrast is. All you can really do is set Contrast low-ish and over time, increase the setting 2 or 3 clicks at a time until you notice that after 2 or 3 hours of viewing, your eyes feel "tired" or you have a slight headache. If you can watch for 2 or 3 hours and feel no fatigue in your eyes at all, you can increase the Contrast setting a few more steps and next time you watch for 2 or 3 hours in a row, you can judge whether that new setting is too bright or still NOT too bright. This way you will eventually sneak-up on the 30-40 fL range for luminance (brightness of 100% white in this case). Any instructions that came with a test/setup disc that talk about finding the highest setting where the pattern looks right -- those are all giving you what I feel is badly outdated advice.

Now... all that said... there is some value in knowing what what the maximum setting is for the Contrast control that doesn't cause problems. If you have a room with widows and have to deal with daylight or light from lamps (or both), knowing how bright you can make the TV without bad problems popping up is GOOD to know. But you'll only use that maximum setting when the room is well-lit with daylight or lamps (or both). It would be very rare to use the max setting in a dark room (there are some displays that are THX certified where the 100% white level will be close to correct for a dark room and you may want to know for THOSE specific cases what your max Contrast setting should be).

Actually, the Spears & Munsil disk is a highly-rated calibration disk, at least as good as Video Essentials, IMHO. Oppo included the disk with the BDP-83, which is how I started using it. The navigation is simple, and the on-screen instructions are excellent. The Disney WOW is quite new, and I'm not as impressed with it.

I re-read your excellent review in WSR, where you note that the HX909 is not capable of displaying blacker-than-black. Perhaps this affects the PLUGE test? Regardless, using several of the advanced screens on the S&M disk, my contrast settings look pretty good in the 84-88 range. I believe your most recent recommendation for 2D viewing is 85, so that's what I have selected.

So, regardless of the disk tests, I continue to find that your recommended settings result in a very pleasing picture, so that's where I am going to leave them. Thanks again for your valued input!
post #208 of 434
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

True Doug, most of my experimentation was with earlier players. I've not kept up over the past couple of years. However for RGB conversion, is the PS3 not still the only player that does 12 bit processing? That is the reason you noticed a better picture on this set with RGB input, the TV's processing is inferior, at least it certainly is on my hx 800, and this is easily demonstrated on the moving chroma pattern on the DVE blu ray. When a ycbcr signal is sent to the set, significant banding/loss of information shows up on the moving chroma pattern, when the PS3 is allowed to do the processing, the pattern is perfect--no banding or artifacts, full detail present.

Omar

It doesn't matter how many bits are in the processing path. Nothing does a better job of video processing than a Lumagen Radiance video processor and it has 10-bit processing. The only reason RGB looked better when sent to the HX909 is because Sony has done something wrong in the 909. There's no reason for ANY product to look better in RGB vs YCbCr unless a mistake has been injected. You could even convert 8-bit YCbCr to 8-bit RGB with perfection (in otherwords, 10 or 12 or more bits are unnecessary for that conversion if it is done properly. More bits certainly guarantees nothing.
post #209 of 434
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Actually, the Spears & Munsil disk is a highly-rated calibration disk, at least as good as Video Essentials, IMHO. Oppo included the disk with the BDP-83, which is how I started using it. The navigation is simple, and the on-screen instructions are excellent. The Disney WOW is quite new, and I'm not as impressed with it.

I re-read your excellent review in WSR, where you note that the HX909 is not capable of displaying blacker-than-black. Perhaps this affects the PLUGE test? Regardless, using several of the advanced screens on the S&M disk, my contrast settings look pretty good in the 84-88 range. I believe your most recent recommendation for 2D viewing is 85, so that's what I have selected.

So, regardless of the disk tests, I continue to find that your recommended settings result in a very pleasing picture, so that's where I am going to leave them. Thanks again for your valued input!
Frankly, all the commercial test/setup discs are "highly rated" they all have some differences -- some have patterns others don't have, some have more or less information about setting up TVs than others, but they are all "good"... up to a point. And one of those points is that they all tend to describe how to set the highest possible Contrast setting rather than how to find the best setting for dark room viewing... but you can't really find the best setting for dark room viewing without a meter.

The closest you can get is if some reviewer or calibrator measures the TV with specific backlight and contrast settings and publishes those measurement results in a review or in an AVS forum thread. Your TV may not need EXACTLY the same settings to produce exactly the same fL measurement, but you should be fairly close to a good Contrast level setting that way. The Contrast and Backlight settings I listed here have produced similar fL readings on several other HX909 displays - not exactly the same I got, but when you are watching a movie in a dark room, there's not any real difference between 32.5 fL and 34 fL as far as your enjoyment of the movie.

The Blacker-Than-Black capability of TVs is SLIGHTLY helpful for setting the Brightness control and has no real effect (or very minimal effect once you are close) on setting the Contrast control (used to be there could be a LOT of interaction between Brightness and Contrast, but this has diminished quite a lot in the change-over to digital displays - yes, there is SOME interaction, but it's nowhere near what it used to be). When the TV won't display blacker-than-black, you simply make the Brightness control so dark that you can't see any of the stripes in the dark PLUGE patter (usually there will be a -2%, 0% and +2% areas or sometimes, -4%, 0, and +4% areas). When the TV won't display blacker than black, you can never see a difference between the -2% (or -4%) and and the 0% area. So anyway... you set Brightness so that the 2% (or 4%) area (usually a bar or rectangle) disappears, then you increase the Brightness control until you can just see the 2% area or until the 4% area is fairly obvious. When the TV will show blacker-than-black, setting Brightness is a little less ambiguous. But if you happen to have a disc or test pattern that shows digital levels instead of % white levels, you can display a stripe or box for each digital level from 0 to 25. You'll never see any difference between 0-16, but you can then set Brightness so you can just BARELY see the digital 17 level and I mean BARELY (totally dark room and putting your face maybe 3 feet from the screen). So it is quite possible to set the Brightness control correctly when the display doesn't show blacker than black, you just have to go about it a bit differently than the instructions that come with most test/setup discs.
post #210 of 434
I've had the HX-909 since the first week of July, and watch it all the time as it has such a beautiful picture and I've been not feeling well, and this TV really gives me no "watching fatigue" - beautiful pictures all the time.

One thing that isn't so hot is the breakups of horizontally sweeping camera pans. I've tried many Cinemotion settings and none eliminate the problem, though "smooth" lessens it, but has problems of it's own, seems various parts of the picture get updated inappropriately vs. others; I dunno. Lousy pans seem to come from all sources, BD, DVD, TV so it can't be as simple as a "bit shortfall" causing it - could it be processing in earlier stages is lousy and is being faithfully produced in lousy detail by the HX909?

I like to stick with "clear 1" but regardless of source, it's not good in pan shots. I honestly don't remember what my XBR4 did with similar programming. I'd greatly appreciate settings that won't detract from the picture overall - with a not great feeling that motionflow 1 is the best for everything.

I've read up on this but it's rarely concise - if Motionflow is involved with black frames (like the resultant motionflow 2) - what is the complete breakdown of what each setting does? Perhaps my tiny brain would rather read what it does and decide instead of wondering what kind of frame interpolating (is that the right term?) is taking place.

Thanks for any help!
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