AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Sony 2010 XBR-xxHX909 Settings Discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Sony 2010 XBR-xxHX909 Settings Discussion - Page 3

post #61 of 433
10/7/10 at 12:50pm
Thread Starter 
The HX909 review has been published in Widescreen Review. It does contain some setting info, but not everything. Here's a list of dark room settings I ended up with after measurements and input from Sony.

Peak white level for 100% white... 35 fL is achieved with Backlight set to "2" and Picture set to 82. This amount of light is bright enough for satisfying images without inducing eye strain or headaches when viewing the TV in a dark room.

Using Backlight settings lower than 2 produced large color shifts. Using Backlight 2 improves black levels over higher settings. Usin Backlight settings higher than 2 raises the black level. That's OK for daytime viewing, but night viewing was always best with Backlight at 2.

Picture settings of 88 and higher cause an increase in color errors.

Local Dimming - ON all the time
Motionflow - Clear1 seemed most natural with the fewest visible motion glitches

General Scene Select mode with Custom Picture Mode has the least video processing applied to video signals.

Visible issues with flicker with "cold" panel and shutter glasses seemed to diminish over time. At the end of the review, the TV seemed to only need about 15 minutes to be it's best for 3D (2D warmup time is fine, doesn't have to be in 3D mode) and the shutter glasses got quite quick... maybe a minute or two at the most. But the colder the room at the start, the more "warmup" was needed for the panel and glasses. So you may find in winter temps in your house, it takes a little longer to get the best results from 3D.

Cinema Scene Select mode actually has a little edge enhancement that can't be disabled... it's very subtle, though and you may like Cinema mode for some sources... especially those that look a little soft (and grainless).

Post #1 in this thread has been updated with this info and a little more.
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #62 of 433
10/7/10 at 8:26pm
Doug, Good Job on this post. I got to get a copy of the Review. I think Your Idea on Warm 1 or warm 2 is perfect. Try each for a Week then pick. I also tell some for B & W use Normal if Warm 1 or 2 bothers You... Don't though forget to go back to Warm for Color...
Reply
Reply
post #63 of 433
10/7/10 at 9:22pm
Thanks Doug!

What are the White Balance settings under warm1 or 2 after calibration?
Reply
Reply
post #64 of 433
10/7/10 at 11:32pm
Thread Starter 
Whaite balance settings don't play from one display to the next. I've calibrated 2 HX909s and there have been slight differences in User Menu settings and significant differences in White Balance settings. The only way you'll get the right white balance settings is to have the TV calibrated.
Reply
Reply
post #65 of 433
10/13/10 at 1:36am
anyone who post impression for this new setting?

this is a dead thred wake up guyyyyyyyysssssssssssss
Reply
Reply
post #66 of 433
10/14/10 at 3:38pm
Doug, when you say 'picture setting' are you referring to 'contrast' - I can only guess this is US - EU difference as I have no 'picture' setting at all on my HX903. Is this common difference between US and EU sets?
Reply
Reply
post #67 of 433
10/15/10 at 8:49am
Here's what I'm using for my 3D settings. I tried to strike a balance between having a nice, bright 3D image and minimizing high and low APL ghosting. I'll try to explain some of the method behind the madness, but as always, YMMV.

PS3 video settings
HDMI output - RGB. Doug mentioned in his print review that the image is sharper when the 909 is fed RGB vs Ycbcr
RGB Full. I'm having the PS3 clip and expand the video levels. Don't see any banding and don't have any 3D test patterns that have BTB. Also potentially less gray scale values to deal with for ghosting.

HX909 settings - OLD SETTINGS
Game - standard. Since I use the PS3 for gaming and bluray, I just leave it here. I know that General-Standard and Sports add motionflow settings to 3D, but am not really sure what other 3D processing is happening with each scene.
Go to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post19383672 for the current settings.

Based on all the reading I've done, LCD can have different response times depending on which gray scale values are being transitioned. So it's not as simple as reducing contrast to reduce ghosting. Doing that will also affect the lower grayscale values and make them transition slower or you may see overdrive artifacts. At least that's what I think is happening based on what I saw.

Room temperature and warm up time adds another variable to the 3D image. The warmer your room is, the less TV warm up time you'll need to get the crystals moving at their best. This can be anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes.

I've based the settings against frame packed blu ray content, and not side by side videos. Side by side stuff looks different to me so I just wanted to stick to the retail discs. The settings work across all the 3D demo and exclusive discs that I tried. Although different settings could improve certain scenes, this is what gave the best balance.

For gaming, you'll have a lot of contrast extremes within the image so I think the best thing to tame ghosting there is to reduce the 3D effect in the game.

I'm also interested in seeing what others are doing with their 3D settings. At this stage in the game, it's more art than science.
Reply
Reply
post #68 of 433
10/15/10 at 9:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quexex View Post

Doug, when you say 'picture setting' are you referring to 'contrast' - I can only guess this is US - EU difference as I have no 'picture' setting at all on my HX903. Is this common difference between US and EU sets?

For whatever reason, Sony TVs here have had a "Picture" control and no Contrast control since at least the 1980s, maybe earlier.
Reply
Reply
post #69 of 433
10/15/10 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

For whatever reason, Sony TVs here have had a "Picture" control and no Contrast control since at least the 1980s, maybe earlier.

That's clearly insane. Oh well good to know for future reference. Great settings by the way really tarting to see some deep blacks now. Also interesting to see that Sony's out of the box settings arn't a million miles away, a couple of points down on contrast, -2 gamma and - a lot on backlight
Reply
Reply
post #70 of 433
10/15/10 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroElectro View Post

Here's what I'm using for my 3D settings. I tried to strike a balance between having a nice, bright 3D image and minimizing high and low APL ghosting. I'll try to explain some of the method behind the madness, but as always, YMMV.

I'll give this a try tomorrow I seem to be very sensitive to cross talk it will be interesting to see how well you dial it out.
Reply
Reply
post #71 of 433
10/15/10 at 9:01pm
Doug - Thanks for all of your help. Your advice has been critical in providing a great baseline for our experience with this set to grow from.

Retro - Thanks for your 3D settings. I can't wait to try them. Retro, what settings are you using for your HD or BluRay viewing?

Thanks in advance for helping this novice out. I am really enjoying this set.

Thanks Again
Mike
Reply
Reply
post #72 of 433
10/18/10 at 3:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroElectro View Post

Here's what I'm using for my 3D settings. I tried to strike a balance between having a nice, bright 3D image and minimizing high and low APL ghosting. I'll try to explain some of the method behind the madness, but as always, YMMV.

PS3 video settings
HDMI output - RGB. Doug mentioned in his print review that the image is sharper when the 909 is fed RGB vs Ycbcr
RGB Full. I'm having the PS3 clip and expand the video levels. Don't see any banding and don't have any 3D test patterns that have BTB. Also potentially less gray scale values to deal with for ghosting.

HX909 settings
Game - standard. Since I use the PS3 for gaming and bluray, I just leave it here. I know that General-Standard and Sports add motionflow settings to 3D, but am not really sure what other 3D processing is happening with each scene.
Picture-Max
Brightness-37
Color-55
Hue-0
Color Temp-Neutral
Sharpness-50
Black Correction-Off
Adv Contrast Enhancement-High. This is to balance out the high gamma that I'm using below.
Gamma-Max. I prefer having the gamma lower, but this reduces the ghosting I see in dark scenes.
Live Color-Low
Detail & Edge enhancement-Low. Gives additional 3D pop without introducing ghosting that the glasses brightness or depth settings would.
White Balance
G-Gain -7

3D glasses brightness-Medium

Based on all the reading I've done, LCD can have different response times depending on which gray scale values are being transitioned. So it's not as simple as reducing contrast to reduce ghosting. Doing that will also affect the lower grayscale values and make them transition slower or you may see overdrive artifacts. At least that's what I think is happening based on what I saw.

Room temperature and warm up time adds another variable to the 3D image. The warmer your room is, the less TV warm up time you'll need to get the crystals moving at their best. This can be anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes.

I've based the settings against frame packed blu ray content, and not side by side videos. Side by side stuff looks different to me so I just wanted to stick to the retail discs. The settings work across all the 3D demo and exclusive discs that I tried. Although different settings could improve certain scenes, this is what gave the best balance.

For gaming, you'll have a lot of contrast extremes within the image so I think the best thing to tame ghosting there is to reduce the 3D effect in the game.

I'm also interested in seeing what others are doing with their 3D settings. At this stage in the game, it's more art than science.

I tried these at the weekend although not extensively. Initially the cross talk was as bad as it always is. However after half an hour of play it diminished dramatically.

Which sounds like the 'warm up' period that Doug has referred to in the past. What's interesting though is the TV had been on playing non 3D stuff for hours prior to that. So either over driving the panel is required to really warm it up OR the glasses are warming up (possibly both).

I still found that I had crosstalk on black and white images (zone mode in Wipeout-HD is a very good stress test). However it's was a lot better than when I first turned on the set. In normal play it was not noticeable at all unless I 'really' looked for it.
Reply
Reply
post #73 of 433
10/18/10 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quexex View Post

I tried these at the weekend although not extensively. Initially the cross talk was as bad as it always is. However after half an hour of play it diminished dramatically.

Which sounds like the 'warm up' period that Doug has referred to in the past. What's interesting though is the TV had been on playing non 3D stuff for hours prior to that. So either over driving the panel is required to really warm it up OR the glasses are warming up (possibly both).

I still found that I had crosstalk on black and white images (zone mode in Wipeout-HD is a very good stress test). However it's was a lot better than when I first turned on the set. In normal play it was not noticeable at all unless I 'really' looked for it.

Yeah, extreme contrast like white text extended from a black background will always show ghosting. It may even be worse for gaming because the black frame should be shorter at 60 fps vs 24fps for movies. Adjusting the in-game settings for the 3D effect is the best way to minimize this. Avatar and Motorstorm have settings for this, don't remember if Wipeout does.

The settings mainly try to minimize ghosting in the lower range. Ghosting in dark background scenes in say Monsters V Aliens, Cloudy, and Coraline can be reduced by cranking the brightness up, but I tried to get the same effect without washing out the picture. It should also produce more 3D pop than say the default cinema settings. I may try to take some before and after photos of the types scenes that are improved.
Reply
Reply
post #74 of 433
10/18/10 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mkwillia View Post

Doug - Thanks for all of your help. Your advice has been critical in providing a great baseline for our experience with this set to grow from.

Retro - Thanks for your 3D settings. I can't wait to try them. Retro, what settings are you using for your HD or BluRay viewing?

Thanks in advance for helping this novice out. I am really enjoying this set.

Thanks Again
Mike

Haven't done too much tweaking on the 2D side as I normally watch blurays on a projector. I think I just changed gamma and color for 2D.
Reply
Reply
post #75 of 433
10/18/10 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroElectro View Post

Yeah, extreme contrast like white text extended from a black background will always show ghosting. It may even be worse for gaming because the black frame should be shorter at 60 fps vs 24fps for movies. Adjusting the in-game settings for the 3D effect is the best way to minimize this. Avatar and Motorstorm have settings for this, don't remember if Wipeout does.

The settings mainly try to minimize ghosting in the lower range. Ghosting in dark background scenes in say Monsters V Aliens, Cloudy, and Coraline can be reduced by cranking the brightness up, but I tried to get the same effect without washing out the picture. It should also produce more 3D pop than say the default cinema settings. I may try to take some before and after photos of the types scenes that are improved.

Funny thing about Wipeout is it does have a 3D effect slider that had defaulted to zero, I check it after running a bunch of tests I then cranked it to 100%. Didn't make much difference to the crosstalk though.
Reply
Reply
post #76 of 433
10/22/10 at 11:04am
I've just got this set and its PQ is awe-inspiring. I'm upgrading from a 9G Kuro because the 3D feature is attractive to me for gaming purposes. I first bought a Panny VT20 but had to return it due to undefeatable motion processing errors and bad flicker.

Can anyone expand on the difference between the Clear and ClearPlus MotionFlow settings? (I have the UK model called the HX903, so I think these correspond to the Clear1 and Clear2 settings in the US HX909). I've read what they're supposed to be doing in theory, but in practice I can't discern any difference except ClearPlus darkens the picture so I have to turn up the Backlight setting to max in order to compensate for it.

Also, some folks are saying use RGB Limited in PS3 settings and others are saying use RGB Full. Which is the correct setting? How about the SuperWhite setting? Should that be set On or Off?
Reply
Reply
post #77 of 433
10/23/10 at 4:23am
I have a noob question about RGB Dynamic Range. It's set to Auto on my HX9 by default and probably this means Limited. I've connected my PC to this TV. The result is lack of details in shadow. Setting Range to Full resolves this issue. I've also found that video board has an option to limit Dynamic Range. So what's better - to limit it or use full?
I guess that full is better but maybe I am wrong.
Thank you.
Reply
Reply
post #78 of 433
10/23/10 at 10:34pm
I know setting my PS3 to limited and HX909 to "auto" looks just right so it must be setting the TV to limited as well.

Im guessing im just seeing things look the way they are meant to? And video output on the PS3 is set to RGB.
Reply
Reply
post #79 of 433
10/24/10 at 2:26pm
I can't give a scientific answer but the PS3 seems to give a significantly better, sharper, brighter and more colourful image with RGB range set to Full (TV is on auto). I wonder if this is a very specific PS3 'thing' though.
Reply
Reply
post #80 of 433
10/24/10 at 4:45pm
Thanks Mr. Blackburn for your time & effort, I appreciate the settings/input. My 52/909 panel looks amazing!

Cheers!
Reply
Reply
post #81 of 433
10/24/10 at 5:41pm
I've recently tried out circular polarized filters over the stock glasses and prefer the 3D image with them on. Hopefully, the Sony filters behave the same way.

Picture - Max
Brightness - 60
Color - 70 -
Color Temp - Cool
Black correction - low
Advance Contrast - low
gamma-0
detail/edge enhancement - low
Live color - medium
3D glasses brightness - low
White balance - B Bias +5

I'm using low 3D brightness due to this info from esupport:
Change the 3D glasses brightness setting to MEDIUM or LOW. The 3D glasses brightness adjustment can be accessed from the OPTIONS menu and the default setting from the factory is set to AUTO. The 3D glasses brightness setting adjusts brightness as seen through the 3D glasses by controlling a combination of the 3D glasses shutter and the panel back light level.

So it seems the 3d glasses brightness setting changes backlight AND the shutter speed. I'm leaving it on low as I assume it decreases the glasses open state which would give the display's crystals more time to transition.

Again--these settings aren't about image accuracy at all. They're about working with the display's limitations to improve the 3D image with respect to pop, brightness, and ghosting.
Reply
Reply
post #82 of 433
10/24/10 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew55555 View Post

I have a noob question about RGB Dynamic Range. It's set to Auto on my HX9 by default and probably this means Limited. I've connected my PC to this TV. The result is lack of details in shadow. Setting Range to Full resolves this issue. I've also found that video board has an option to limit Dynamic Range. So what's better - to limit it or use full?
I guess that full is better but maybe I am wrong.
Thank you.

For the PS3, I would leave it at Full. The reason is that games may use the full 0-255 dynamic range. You can argue that clipping and expanding video levels to 0-255 introduces banding but it all depends on how it's done. The clipping to me is a non-issue as you're clipping levels in the video signal that's there for display setup or overshoot. For banding, it's not an issue if the expansion is done at a higher bit depth with dithering. I have not seen banding in videos that would reveal it most like CG animation.
If you have a separate bluray player, than yeah limited on that makes sense. But for a game console, I would not clip or compress the game's video output at the expense of keeping the bluray output untouched.
Reply
Reply
post #83 of 433
10/25/10 at 12:54am
guys, make setting for videogames with xbox360 and ps3?

for 360 i still have work for setting...

for ps3, use these:


Custom

RGB Gamma - Full

Backlight - 1
Picture - 75
Brightness - 50
Color - 48
Hue - 0
Color Temp - Warm2
Sharpness - 60
Noise Reduction - Off
MPEG Noise - Off
Motionflow - Smooth
CineMotion - Auto1
Black Corrector - Off
Adv. Contrast Enhancer - Off
Gamma - -1
LED Dynamic Control - Standard
Auto Light Limiter - Off
Clear White - Off
Live Color - Off
Detail Enhancer - Off
Edge Enhancer - Off
Reply
Reply
post #84 of 433
10/25/10 at 11:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroElectro View Post

For the PS3, I would leave it at Full. The reason is that games may use the full 0-255 dynamic range. You can argue that clipping and expanding video levels to 0-255 introduces banding but it all depends on how it's done. The clipping to me is a non-issue as you're clipping levels in the video signal that's there for display setup or overshoot. For banding, it's not an issue if the expansion is done at a higher bit depth with dithering. I have not seen banding in videos that would reveal it most like CG animation.
If you have a separate bluray player, than yeah limited on that makes sense. But for a game console, I would not clip or compress the game's video output at the expense of keeping the bluray output untouched.

It's not that easy... if you use Full range RGB, you have to re-calibrate the video display because the black level will be wrong for consumer video, cable/satellite/broadcast and Blu-ray/DVD. It will look pretty bad if the TV is not re-jiggered to compensate. Whether that is even possible or not depends on the capabilities of the TV and AVR/processor and other sources. You could end up with some sources with the wrong black & white levels and other sources with correct black and white levels.

It is MUCH better to set the PS3 to Limited for Blu-ray and other video content. If that produces the wrong black levels for games, switch to Full for games and back to Limited when not playing games.
Reply
Reply
post #85 of 433
10/25/10 at 3:34pm
When I set ps3 to Full and hx to auto/full the black loading screen on mw2 is not black. So I'm sticking with limited . Anyone know how to make Full work ?
Reply
Reply
post #86 of 433
10/25/10 at 8:18pm
Here are some photos I took of the stock glasses with the OOTB cinema 3D settings compared to my hacked circular polarized glasses with the 3D settings I posted earlier. First image is the stock glasses and default settings. Second image is my custom setup. The hacked polarized filter is actually 2 RealD polarized lenses covering one Sony lens so you'll see a dark vertical stripe where they overlap. Don't have a DSLR so this is the best I could do. The screenshots aren't 100% accurate but they do give you a general ballpark idea.

Panasonic 3D Demo - Right eye. Look for ghosting around the statue.


I picked that image because we can compare it to Gizmodo's screenshots of the Panasonic vt20 and Samsung C7000.



Monsters Vs Aliens - Left eye. Look for ghosting around the chapel.


I remember seeing another Panasonic/Samsung screenshot on the web comparing the chapel but can't seem to find it.

Coraline - Right eye. Look for ghosting around the moon, the insect, the other father, and the forest.



Coraline - Right eye. Look for ghosting around the webs and the red structure.



Cloudy with a chance of meatballs - Right eye. Look for ghosting around the telephone poles.



Sony 3D Demo - Right eye at a 45 deg angle

Reply
Reply
post #87 of 433
10/25/10 at 8:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

It's not that easy... if you use Full range RGB, you have to re-calibrate the video display because the black level will be wrong for consumer video, cable/satellite/broadcast and Blu-ray/DVD. It will look pretty bad if the TV is not re-jiggered to compensate. Whether that is even possible or not depends on the capabilities of the TV and AVR/processor and other sources. You could end up with some sources with the wrong black & white levels and other sources with correct black and white levels.

It is MUCH better to set the PS3 to Limited for Blu-ray and other video content. If that produces the wrong black levels for games, switch to Full for games and back to Limited when not playing games.

I don't use an HDMI switcher or receiver so the PS3 is on a dedicated input. You can specify auto/full/limited for each input so that gives flexibility on the other devices you're connecting. But if you do video switching external to the TV then yeah, you'll probably have a video levels mess.
Reply
Reply
post #88 of 433
10/25/10 at 10:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

It's not that easy... if you use Full range RGB, you have to re-calibrate the video display because the black level will be wrong for consumer video, cable/satellite/broadcast and Blu-ray/DVD. It will look pretty bad if the TV is not re-jiggered to compensate. Whether that is even possible or not depends on the capabilities of the TV and AVR/processor and other sources. You could end up with some sources with the wrong black & white levels and other sources with correct black and white levels.

It is MUCH better to set the PS3 to Limited for Blu-ray and other video content. If that produces the wrong black levels for games, switch to Full for games and back to Limited when not playing games.

And it doesnt produce the wrong blacks for games either. I dont know why people here are saying to use full. It distorts the picture and creates MAJOR black crush and blown out contrast that clearly doesnt look right. I guess the only way to fix it would be to make major changes to the picture settings but then other sources will look messed up.

With the proper picture settings (anything close to the out-of-the-box settings) all sources/games will look the way they should when the PS3 is set to limited and HX9 to auto/limited.
Reply
Reply
post #89 of 433
10/26/10 at 12:34am
indeed, when we use full range on ps3 for games, we modify the setting...

with games, limited range the color ar very sad...imho...

we can't youse same setting for games or film, because the have different video features imho...

anyone can post his best setting for ps3 or 360?
Reply
Reply
post #90 of 433
10/26/10 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper2847 View Post

And it doesnt produce the wrong blacks for games either. I dont know why people here are saying to use full. It distorts the picture and creates MAJOR black crush and blown out contrast that clearly doesnt look right. I guess the only way to fix it would be to make major changes to the picture settings but then other sources will look messed up.

With the proper picture settings (anything close to the out-of-the-box settings) all sources/games will look the way they should when the PS3 is set to limited and HX9 to auto/limited.

People say to use full because the developers can choose to set black at 16 or 0. NTSC video on the other hand has always been 16-235. If the tv is set to full, the source is set to full, and you setup contrast and brightness correctly, then you will see the full 0-255 dynamic range of the signal. If the developer used video levels, the image will look washed out. If you're seeing black crush, it sounds like the source is set to RGB full, but the display is using limited or you haven't readjusted your picture settings.

PC vs video levels has been discussed many times before by people with HTPCs and now PS3s. Here's one of many discussions on the subject:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=967106
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: LCD Flat Panel Displays

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Sony 2010 XBR-xxHX909 Settings Discussion