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New Onkyo TX-NR5008 & TX-NR3008 - Page 157

post #4681 of 8416
3/3/11 at 1:51pm
Anyone here know if it's possible to use the Audyssey DSX mode with a phantom center or if it's only selectable when there are at least 7 speakers hooked up?

I'm using a pair of Boston Acoustics E100's for the mains and have been looking for another to use horizontally as a center. I was watching (listening actually) to the '04 version of 'Phantom Of The Opera', and 'Across The Universe' on BD and decided that my current center isn't quite up to the task of matching the E100's.

In other words, I think the E100's creating a phantom center sound significantly better than my current center.

Until I place another E100 horizontally as a new center (or find something that works equally well), is there a way to enable Audyssey DSX without a physical center channel? I like the effect created by the Wides.


Max
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #4682 of 8416
3/3/11 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Ah... mystery.... OK then. I doubt if I will change my 5007 for a while yet unless the x009s have something amazing in them. Like a real life Scarlett Johansson pops out of them every night or something. That'd even beat Height speakers eh?

Kind Regards,

Keith

Yeah it have to something outta this worldly for me to change from a 5008
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post #4683 of 8416
3/3/11 at 7:44pm
With all my network connectivity problems (which are now ALL solved) and having to go through a couple of resets, it would be nice to be able to save and restore settings and configurations to a usb drive and/or through the network. That is a feature that could really save time and energy.
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post #4684 of 8416
3/3/11 at 7:47pm
If you raise the center channel db's for HT movies, will it raise the db's on every source. Example cd's?

Or are they independent on the 5008?
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post #4685 of 8416
3/3/11 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Audyssey will only have created filters for the lowest frequency (and above) that it detects at the -3dB point. So if Audyssey detects that point to be 100Hz, then it will create filters for 100Hz up to whatever it goes to at the top end - 20kHz or whatever.

So if you then lower the XO to say 50 Hz, you will have a gap between 100Hz and 50Hz that is not corrected.

Sorry to jump in mjf_uk - I was here anyway and I know you would have replied the same

Kind Regards,

Keith

Thanks Keith for your helpfull replies :-)

Do you leave the sub at the 120Hz default or set it lower ?
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post #4686 of 8416
3/4/11 at 4:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post

Thanks Keith for your helpfull replies :-)

Do you leave the sub at the 120Hz default or set it lower ?

The LPF of LFE is a different issue. That isn't a crossover, it's a filter.

Here's what Audyssey have to say on their website:

"The LPF filter for the LFE channel should always be set to 120 Hz. Any other setting is wrong. This filter has nothing to do with speaker roll offs and crossovers. It is a filter that is applied only to the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. That material is authored to have content up to 120 Hz."

For that reason, the LPF of LEF should always be set to 120Hz. Setting it any lower runs the risk of content between the lower setting and 120Hz being simply lost.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4687 of 8416
3/4/11 at 4:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by davepr View Post

With all my network connectivity problems (which are now ALL solved) and having to go through a couple of resets, it would be nice to be able to save and restore settings and configurations to a usb drive and/or through the network. That is a feature that could really save time and energy.

Store and Recall settings
To STORE:
1. Push and hold Setup on the AVR (not the remote)
2. Then push Enter
3. Unit displays 'Setup store?"
4. Still holding Setup, push Enter again
5. Unit displays "Setup storing'
6. Unit then displays 'Complete'
All your settings are now stored.
To RECALL:
1. Push and hold Setup on the AVR
2. Then push Return
3. Unit displays 'Setup recall?'
4. Still holding Setup, push Return again
5. Unit displays 'Setup recalling'
6. Unit then displays 'Complete'
Unit then powers off into standby mode. Switch unit back on, your settings have been restored.
There are discrete remote control codes in the excel doc for "Store" and "Recall" available if someone feels the need to use them on a regular basis.

All this info is on the very useful first page of the 3007/5007 thread, which has now fallen into disuse more or less. As the x007 and x008 series share about 98% of their features, most of what applies to the x007s also applies to the x008s. It's a pity that there isn't a really great "all in one place" guide in this thread, because a lot of the same issues come up day after day.

Have a look at the info on Page 1 of the x007 thread - it will help you with many of the issues regarding the x008 series:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1192172

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4688 of 8416
3/4/11 at 7:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Titus View Post

If you raise the center channel db's for HT movies, will it raise the db's on every source. Example cd's?

Or are they independent on the 5008?

no !
independent to the point that u have to boost as needed each time u change listening modes
this is done on the fly with the remote

which is a better way to do it anyway as every movie's sound track is different

unless u preset & change the audyssey settings
then they will stay as U preset them .
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post #4689 of 8416
3/4/11 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

which is a better way to do it anyway as every movie's sound track is different

I'm glad it's not just me that realises this. It's surprising how many people run the initial calibration and then expect everything to be balanced and "perfect" at a set volume level for everything they watch. From one movie to the next can be a difference of up to 10dB on the main volume level, but even if the main volume doesn't (noticeably) change I may still have to adjust my subs by up to 6dB, or sometimes the centre by a couple of dB.

Usually when I mention it there is very little or no acknowledgement, so I figured maybe it was an OCD thing I have.
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post #4690 of 8416
3/4/11 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

I'm glad it's not just me that realises this. It's surprising how many people run the initial calibration and then expect everything to be balanced and "perfect" at a set volume level for everything they watch. From one movie to the next can be a difference of up to 10dB on the main volume level, but even if the main volume doesn't (noticeably) change I may still have to adjust my subs by up to 6dB, or sometimes the centre by a couple of dB.

That shouldn't happen really. AIUI movies are mixed to a standard - 105dB on peaks and 115dB for the sub. This is what you should achieve at home after an Audyssey calibration, at 0dB. It's possible the people who master the DVDs don't always adhere to the standard I guess. HST, I never feel any need to change my centre channel or sub levels after calibration. (I do increase the centre channel by 1dB afrer running Audyssey but then it's never changed again). Sometimes a movie is just light in bass and I accept it the way it is. Nothing wrong, of course, with adjusting from reference to preference if that's what blows your frock up.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4691 of 8416
3/4/11 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

which is a better way to do it anyway as every movie's sound track is different

They are not supposed to be! The whole point of Audyssey and movie sound tracks is that they are mixed to a consistent standard, which is to achieve 105dB peaks at reference level and 115 dB peak for the LFE channel at reference level. Every movie is mixed to this consistent standard so that they sound the same in every movie theatre, and Audyssey calibrates to reference at 0dB so that we can have the same experience at home.

Am I misunderstanding what you said in some way?

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4692 of 8416
3/4/11 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Store and Recall settings
To STORE:
1. Push and hold Setup on the AVR (not the remote)
2. Then push Enter
3. Unit displays 'Setup store?"
4. Still holding Setup, push Enter again
5. Unit displays "Setup storing'
6. Unit then displays 'Complete'
All your settings are now stored.
To RECALL:
1. Push and hold Setup on the AVR
2. Then push Return
3. Unit displays 'Setup recall?'
4. Still holding Setup, push Return again
5. Unit displays 'Setup recalling'
6. Unit then displays 'Complete'
Unit then powers off into standby mode. Switch unit back on, your settings have been restored.
There are discrete remote control codes in the excel doc for "Store" and "Recall" available if someone feels the need to use them on a regular basis.

All this info is on the very useful first page of the 3007/5007 thread, which has now fallen into disuse more or less. As the x007 and x008 series share about 98% of their features, most of what applies to the x007s also applies to the x008s. It's a pity that there isn’t a really great "all in one place" guide in this thread, because a lot of the same issues come up day after day.

Have a look at the info on Page 1 of the x007 thread - it will help you with many of the issues regarding the x008 series:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1192172

Kind Regards,

Keith

Wow, thanks Keith!!!

I have not tried it yet but I will. I can not find this process documented in the manual anywhere.. Either I am missing it (not impossible) or Onkyo has left out documenting useful function. I did not see it as a "problem" such that I would scan the threads, but a useful feature that could have been added.

Note: I have printed these instructions and inserted it into the manual. Hope I am not violating kbarnes701's copy write.
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post #4693 of 8416
3/4/11 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That shouldn't happen really. AIUI movies are mixed to a standard - 105dB on peaks and 115dB for the sub. This is what you should achieve at home after an Audyssey calibration, at 0dB. It's possible the people who master the DVDs don't always adhere to the standard I guess. HST, I never feel any need to change my centre channel or sub levels after calibration. (I do increase the centre channel by 1dB afrer running Audyssey but then it's never changed again). Sometimes a movie is just light in bass and I accept it the way it is. Nothing wrong, of course, with adjusting from reference to preference if that's what blows your frock up.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Well DVD's and Blu-Rays don't seem to be conforming to such standards. I too increase my centre by 1dB after calibration, but every once in a while there is a movie that just has a very quiet centre channel and I have to raise it maybe a couple of dB. It's obviously just a poor mix, rather than my system.

I must admit that difference between DVD's are much worse, but even 2 Blu-Rays from the same studio can be very different. It's a bit tedious having to adjust things, but I guess I'm used to it now.

It's the same for picture as well. Brightness/Colour/Contrast can vary considerably.
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post #4694 of 8416
3/4/11 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

They are not supposed to be! The whole point of Audyssey and movie sound tracks is that they are mixed to a consistent standard, which is to achieve 105dB peaks at reference level and 115 dB peak for the LFE channel at reference level. Every movie is mixed to this consistent standard so that they sound the same in every movie theatre, and Audyssey calibrates to reference at 0dB so that we can have the same experience at home.

Am I misunderstanding what you said in some way?

Kind Regards,

Keith

Nope !

just some Cheap A** films don't put quality sound editing in to the production values ,having a 5008 u can enhance that on the fly with the remote & Not have that change screw-up all your pre-settings
as when the AVR is turned off they go back to what your real pre-settings were..

That is what I really like !
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post #4695 of 8416
3/4/11 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by davepr View Post

Wow, thanks Keith!!!

I have not tried it yet but I will. I can not find this process documented in the manual anywhere.. Either I am missing it (not impossible) or Onkyo has left out documenting useful function. I did not see it as a "problem" such that I would scan the threads, but a useful feature that could have been added.

Note: I have printed these instructions and inserted it into the manual. Hope I am not violating your copy write.

I have a text file on my desktop that i put these very useful & helpful details that are either better explained OR just not in the manual
simple copy & paste to the TXT file then hit save
thanks Keith you have about 3 of these in mine already
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post #4696 of 8416
3/4/11 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

no !
independent to the point that u have to boost as needed each time u change listening modes
this is done on the fly with the remote

which is a better way to do it anyway as every movie's sound track is different

unless u preset & change the audyssey settings
then they will stay as U preset them .

So another words, you can boost your center, L/R, Sub, etc on the fly and Audyssey will revert back to the save configuration when you power off/on the receiver?
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post #4697 of 8416
3/4/11 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric-t View Post

So another words, you can boost your center, L/R, Sub, etc on the fly and Audyssey will revert back to the save configuration when you power off/on the receiver?

Yes!
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post #4698 of 8416
3/4/11 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Anyone here know if it's possible to use the Audyssey DSX mode with a phantom center or if it's only selectable when there are at least 7 speakers hooked up?

I'm using a pair of Boston Acoustics E100's for the mains and have been looking for another to use horizontally as a center. I was watching (listening actually) to the '04 version of 'Phantom Of The Opera', and 'Across The Universe' on BD and decided that my current center isn't quite up to the task of matching the E100's.

In other words, I think the E100's creating a phantom center sound significantly better than my current center.

Until I place another E100 horizontally as a new center (or find something that works equally well), is there a way to enable Audyssey DSX without a physical center channel? I like the effect created by the Wides.


Max

Max,

I'd continue to use your system with your current center channel speaker. Using the "phantom center" approach considerably affects the frequency response of the L & R speakers due to interaural crosstalk cancellation. (This is one of the chief advantages of using a center channel speaker.) Also, if the E100 is intended only to be used as vertical-placement speaker, it wouldn't be advisable to use it as a horizontally poised center since the frequency response will be altered as you sit off-axis (differences between the drivers in distance to the listener, since they are now arrayed horizontally.)

Best,

Jim
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post #4699 of 8416
3/4/11 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by davepr View Post

Wow, thanks Keith!!!

You're more than welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davepr View Post

I have not tried it yet but I will. I can not find this process documented in the manual anywhere.. Either I am missing it (not impossible) or Onkyo has left out documenting useful function. I did not see it as a "problem" such that I would scan the threads, but a useful feature that could have been added.

It's one of the many undocumented Onkyo features. I don't know why they keep useful stuff like that secret. Have a look at that first post on the 3007 thread for that one and lots more - all contributed by various users over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davepr View Post

Note: I have printed these instructions and inserted it into the manual. Hope I am not violating kbarnes701's copy write.

Feel free. Someone, somewhere must have told me once - all I did was test out out and ask the mods to include it in the first post on the x007 thread. I keep a text file with all this stuff in it - very handy sometimes. I actually have a 5007 not a x008 but 98% of it is the same for both series.

Edit: that Save and Restore routine also saves and restores Audyssey settings too so if you store a good, known Audyssey calibration before experimenting, you can always go back to it.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4700 of 8416
3/4/11 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Well DVD's and Blu-Rays don't seem to be conforming to such standards. I too increase my centre by 1dB after calibration, but every once in a while there is a movie that just has a very quiet centre channel and I have to raise it maybe a couple of dB. It's obviously just a poor mix, rather than my system.

I must admit that difference between DVD's are much worse, but even 2 Blu-Rays from the same studio can be very different. It's a bit tedious having to adjust things, but I guess I'm used to it now.

It's the same for picture as well. Brightness/Colour/Contrast can vary considerably.

It's interesting and IKWYM but I canÂ't ever recall changing any settings for any DVDs or BDs that I have (and I have about 1,000). There is of course a lot of variation in colour and contrast and so on, but that is almost always, AFAIAA, the Director's intention. For example, Tony Scott always uses a very high contrast, high colour saturation in his movies (eg DéjÃ* Vu or Man On Fire). Others use a lot of grain and so on (eg his brother Ridley in Gladiator and Robin Hood). Some Directors favour a very washed out colour palette for some movies - eg the Hughes Brothers in The Book of Eli where the palette is almost a brown monochrome. Also see Spielberg's washed out bleach bypass technique in Minority Report.

IMO once the screen has been calibrated there should never be any reason to change the settings because if you do you move away from reference and no longer see what the Director intended you to see. Onec the screen has been calibrated for colour temperature, saturation, brightness and contrast etc, that should be it - what is then coming off the DVD is what the studio intended you see. Its true that there is a very, very small minority of rogue transfers but the number is minute and they are always remarked on in reviews etc.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4701 of 8416
3/4/11 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Nope !

just some Cheap A** films don't put quality sound editing in to the production values ,having a 5008 u can enhance that on the fly with the remote & Not have that change screw-up all your pre-settings
as when the AVR is turned off they go back to what your real pre-settings were..

That is what I really like !

Sure, some movies have average or even poor sound (although not many these days) but you can't really compensate for that. If the track has, for example, poor bass or poor treble or poor separation and so on, you can't do much about it with tone controls. It's just a poor mix and that's it really. You can't recreate something that was never on the disc in the first place. Do you have an example of a movie that illustrates your point - if I have it I can listen to it and see where we reach some common ground on this - it's an interesting "reference vs preference" thing

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4702 of 8416
3/4/11 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

I have a text file on my desktop that i put these very useful & helpful details that are either better explained OR just not in the manual
simple copy & paste to the TXT file then hit save
thanks Keith you have about 3 of these in mine already

Wow! Excellent. I also have a text file with various hints and tips in it that I have accumulated over time, from these great forums. AVRs are so complicated these days that the manuals can be very hard to understand in some areas. Sometimes it's a lot more helpful for actual users of the gear to explain things in real English

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4703 of 8416
3/4/11 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Yes!

I like that. Just learning Audyssey as I have YPAO now.
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post #4704 of 8416
3/4/11 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Sure, some movies have average or even poor sound (although not many these days) but you can't really compensate for that. If the track has, for example, poor bass or poor treble or poor separation and so on, you can't do much about it with tone controls. It's just a poor mix and that's it really. You can't recreate something that was never on the disc in the first place. Do you have an example of a movie that illustrates your point - if I have it I can listen to it and see where we reach some common ground on this - it's an interesting "reference vs preference" thing

Kind Regards,

Keith

not right off the top of my head I don't have a movie in mind & U missed the point .
I don't change tone controls, I was talking about just boosting/lowering volumes to the center/bass & even tones if someone wants (I myself don't change tones,bass @ all ) to my/their tastes on that particular show/movie. But the poster is right sometimes the center channel voices are poor/under detailed/not comprehensible @ all ( I have a problem with British/Irish accents & boosting the Db helps understand the dialog ) , in some movies & broadcasts
all this being On the fly & Not have the on the fly changes , change the audyssey settings set by a calibration

& that's not a Dig @ you kieth about the British thing !
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post #4705 of 8416
3/4/11 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

AVRs are so complicated these days that the manuals can be very hard to understand in some areas. Sometimes it's a lot more helpful for actual users of the gear to explain things in real English

Kind Regards,

Keith

You are soooo right! I think I said elsewhere that avr's are now computers wrapped around a bunch of amplifiers, with all the software, firmware, microcode, user interfaces(and lack thereof) and problem determination issues that bring all the associated complexities, problems and benefits. User interface and documentation clarity has never kept up with the software and hardware engineers' ability to turn out functionality. Given that, I think Onkyo is better than most.
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post #4706 of 8416
3/4/11 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Sure, some movies have average or even poor sound (although not many these days) but you can't really compensate for that. If the track has, for example, poor bass or poor treble or poor separation and so on, you can't do much about it with tone controls. It's just a poor mix and that's it really. You can't recreate something that was never on the disc in the first place. Do you have an example of a movie that illustrates your point - if I have it I can listen to it and see where we reach some common ground on this - it's an interesting "reference vs preference" thing

Kind Regards,

Keith

Keith. This whole conversion is a much bigger topic than I can reply to at the moment.

I will follow up on the weekend. I have some fairly strong opinions about it.
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post #4707 of 8416
3/4/11 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

not right off the top of my head I don't have a movie in mind & U missed the point .
I don't change tone controls, I was talking about just boosting/lowering volumes to the center/bass & even tones if someone wants (I myself don't change tones,bass @ all ) to my/their tastes on that particular show/movie. But the poster is right sometimes the center channel voices are poor/under detailed/not comprehensible @ all ( I have a problem with British/Irish accents & boosting the Db helps understand the dialog ) , in some movies & broadcasts
all this being On the fly & Not have the on the fly changes , change the audyssey settings set by a calibration

& that's not a Dig @ you kieth about the British thing !

No dig taken mate (buddy) Dialogue is often a tricky issue. It's the way they often seem to make the movie. As you probably know, some dialogue is recorded 'live' on set and a lot is 'looped' using ADR (Automated Dialog Replacement) in a studio in post-production. I often find that the quality of recorded dialogue varies a lot according to how it was recorded during production. But generally speaking, turning up the loudness doesn't make it all that much clearer IME - it just makes the muffled dialogue LOUDER muffled dialogue. Most modern movies seem to have clear dialogue - it's when you go back a few years, into the 80s for example, that sometimes the dialogue is hard to follow.

And yes, I take your point about the accents. I, believe it or not, have great difficulty understanding some *Scottish* dialogue. I'm fine with US accents - I lived in LA for 3 years and have spent a lot of time in the States on and off for most of my life.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4708 of 8416
3/4/11 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Keith. This whole conversion is a much bigger topic than I can reply to at the moment.

I will follow up on the weekend. I have some fairly strong opinions about it.

Hey FilmMixer! Great to see you here again. I was just thinking about how you could contribute a professional view on this and I would love to hear your opinions. Especially on the dialogue issue mentioned in a post of mine in reply to my good buddy Mr Fastslappy (great name). Why is there such a variance in dialogue clarity? Some movies, there can be all hell breaking loose and the dialogue is crystal clear, others, the enviromnent can be a quiet room and yet sometimes it's a struggle to hear every word.

Also, I'd be interested to get your take on Blu-ray mastering. Do the guys who do these BD masters sometimes take the sound levels up or down from where they ought to be, which means that calibrating our gear to reference is futile, if they are going to make a 'louder' or a 'quieter' mix on the BD soundtrack.

I would love to hear your views on this - I am extremely interested in all aspects of movie production, especially sound and the chance to discuss it with a professional mixer is a rare privilege for us forum users.

I look forward to hearing what you have to say when you have more time.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #4709 of 8416
3/4/11 at 1:12pm
louder muffled dialog is better than low muffled dialog .. but what we saying is that a on the fly change in Db can help understand the dialog & that "on the fly" change is only temporary.
the question was does the on the fly changes all the preset settings, it's a No ..
now the issue with dialog as You & FlimMixer See it , is whole Big Can-0'Worms in it's self
we were talking about doing something to improve to fact that the dialog was not understandable & if boosting the center Db would change all the setting on the AVR ,if it's done on the fly by the remote
kinda an apples & oranges thing
i understand & know what you are talking about the production values & how they really can't be overcome after the fact .
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post #4710 of 8416
3/4/11 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post
louder muffled dialog is better than low muffled dialog ..
But it's still muffled...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post
but what we saying is that a on the fly change in Db can help understand the dialog & that "on the fly" change is only temporary.
the question was does the on the fly changes all the preset settings, it's a No ..
And on that we can definitely agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

now the issue with dialog as You & FlimMixer See it , is whole Big Can-0'Worms in it's self
we were talking about doing something to improve to fact that the dialog was not understandable & if boosting the center Db would change all the setting on the AVR ,if it's done on the fly by the remote
kinda an apples & oranges thing
Yes, you are right - somewhere along the line the original issue got confused. There's no question that changing these settings on the fly makes them permanent. On that we agree 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post
i understand & know what you are talking about the production values & how they really can't be overcome after the fact .
Yeah - I am really keen to hear FilmMixer's take on this. It's not often you can get to ask a professional sound mixer this sort of stuff. That's what makes AVS such a cool place to hang out.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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