New Onkyo TX-NR5008 & TX-NR3008 - Page 264

I don't think you are going to notice any difference putting an external amp on your surrounds. The majority of the heavy lifting is done by your center. The surrounds don't draw much power so your idea that it will somehow relieve the 5008 so it can do a better job of powering the front three doesn't make sense. You would be better off running your front 2 with the separate amp or bi-wiring the center with it.

Ya, the 805 really seems to have been a bit of an anomaly! I wonder why or how that was the case? Onkyo made it quite powerful, but I don't recall them really pushing that feature when it was still a current model.

Oops my bad. I meant bi-amp the center with the power amp.

Bingo!!!! This is what I am getting at, and thought I mentioned it this way.

I'm not sure what the misunderstanding is. It's different, but relief off of the AVR amp section. Actually it's more relief then buying a amp for the front 3, and using 4channels for the rear.

At least the way I am doing it or thinking of doing it, is giving the AVR relief from 4channels, and have the AVR only power 3.

Buying a 300 watt amp for the front 3 and having head room, is not going to take give the amp section in the Onkyo with running 4 channels any more relief. This way, I will be making the Onkyo 5008 work harder with 4 channels instead of only 3. (I'm just a typing without proof reading, and I think I am repeating myself.... lol)


I agree 100% with this post.

If this is the case, and the way you are thinking, can you explain when test are done on an AVR, going from 2-channel to 7channel, the wpc channel drop with each added channel?

If I do not use the amp section in the AVR for those added surrounds, then the wpc should not drop, If they do not drop, then I should hear a difference.

Since the heavy lifting is done on the center, and I give that AVR relief from using it's amp to run the surrounds, It should handle the center much better.

Your telling me to make a AVR is going to handle 4 channels better then 3 channels? When the darn things handles 7 perfectly fine.

The difference being that the four channels that the avr would be handling are far less demanding and don't require as much power. I would imagine that it would be far easier to clip the avr running the front three channels than the four surround channels.

HI ALL. I am a EXTREMELY HAPPY owner of a external amp with 5008 combo. I have a EMOTIVA XPA-5 for front stage. An the AVR takes care of surrounds. NOW I CAN'T GO BACK... TRUE that the center do a lot of work...but at least for me....when I am watching movies or playing BF3; it is like wearing headphones. But the house can shake...an this week I gonna be adding .2 to my full KLIPSCH 9.1 system. For the size (for now) it is over kill. But I like it....

You are correct in your thinking that if you relieve 4 channels then the avr will do 3 channels better. The problem with that theory is those 4 surround channels are not demanding much of the avr. Those reports showing power at all channels driven will be done with equal loads on each of the 7 channels. These are not real world values because you will never have equal power demands on all 7 speakers at once when watching a movie. The center channel will be very often requiring a VERY taxing load from the Avr. And the avr will have to put out everything it has to keep up to it. Why not let a separate amp take care of the center and run at 3/4 it's capabilities instead of making the avr run at 100%.

Hello,
I really appreciate you writing that. I really should not care as I have not hooked up a Speaker Cable into my 805, 875, 3007, and 3008's Binding Posts due to using Martin Logan Electrostatic Speakers which can dip as low as 0.8 Ohms on my Mains and Surrounds. (Vantages, Vista)

It is just after reading so many folks, mostly on other AVR Brand Owner Threads, continually mentioning that the 3000 and 5000 perform so poorly that I think it is important to make clear that it really is not the case. Even in the Home Theater Magazine Review of the 5008, they lauded how powerful the AVR was.

Here is an excerpt from the same HT Mag Review where so many think it does so poorly: " I switched back to my reference Marantz SR8002 AVR for a few days, but I found its tonal balance to be too warm and laid back in comparison to the more exciting Onkyo. From a power perspective, the 145-watt-per-channel Onkyo trounces the 125-wpc Marantz in a way that a mere 20-watt difference can't explain. So much for comparing one manufacturer's power claims to another's.


The TX-NR5008 had more of the right stuff when driving my Revel speakers. It did a better job of it than even a very powerful five-channel ATI 1505 amp I've used in the past. It offered tight, powerful lower midrange and that in-the-room presence you expect from fancier and far costlier setups. The jazzy drumming on ABC's Castle really stood out; my daughter and I both commented on it at the same time. My recollection of the Pioneer Elite SC-27 AVR [Home Theater, March 2010] is admittedly hazy, but as much as I liked it, I definitely prefer the Onkyo's sonics. Features and ergonomics aside (and the Onkyo kills most everybody else on features and ergonomics), the TX-NR5008 is the best-sounding AVR I've ever used, bar none."

For what its worth, when the $3000 Denon AVR-4810 was Reviewed by them it only reached 30.9 Watts when tested into 7 Channels. Oddly, Sound & Vision measured 60 Watts into 7 Channels.
Cheers,
AD

Again, I agree, to me you are correct. I'm gonna have to kinda of ask a question.

The things we are and have been chatting about, it sounds like no one should have an AVR without a powerful amp, because all AVR are going to clip with they are using all 7channels. It must going to clip with 7channels if it's going to clip with 3channels.

I suppose since it hasn't clipped yet with the 7channels, I just can't see it clipping with 3channels with the surrounds being lifted by other external amps.


I can't see the surrounds clipping when they are not that demanding.

Doesn't the 5008 have 4 power supplies and one of them being a toroidal, and you guys think it's going to clip the speakers using only 3 channels?

I'm going to tell you that it will clip just that the chances of it clipping are greater running the front three speakers vs the four surround speakers. Whether or not it will clip depends on how hard your pushing the avr.

I'm not using an avr as I found any avr's I've had in the past couldn't deliver the power or SQ when pushed, now using an Integra 80.2 with three mono blocks and a multi channel amp for the surrounds. I will admit it's overkill but I'd rather have too much power than not enough.

This was mentioned or thought of, I can't remember which one.

Mainly, I was thinking if I had the amps for the surrounds and an amp for the center, would everyone still feel this way, with the AVR just doing the left and right channel?

It would be at least the 145w

Also, if all worked well, I would get another for the 9channel/heights.

I totally understand. I know I cannot get to reference level with the AVR alone, so I don't see myself doing it with added amps to the surrounds.

I get close to reference with certain soundfields, but never have I hit that point with a movie.

I've been drinking before and gotten there and passed it with music...

Sorry, typo in my post. I meant to say that I'm not going to tell you it will clip, I didn't mean to imply that it will surely clip.

Hello,
If only using 3 Channels from the 5008, it stands to reason that it would be far more less likely to go into distortion as opposed to running 9 Channels.

As the Channels share the same Power Transformers and Capacitor Banks, you would have more available power going to those 3 than if using them all. It is the same reason why 2 Channel Measurements are so much higher than when All Channels are driven.
Cheers,
AD

I am sure it all stems from that one review where the reviewer inadvertently used the 4 ohm setting, this severely limiting the unit's output thanks to the current limiting circuitry. It then gained traction - possibly by being quoted and requoted by fanboys of other brands - and has now entered the world of Legend. I had a 5007 until some months back and there is no way it was lacking in power! The 5008 will be essentially the same - AFAIK the power output of the two units is identical and unchanged between them.


That's pretty much how I'd expect it to come out - the 5008 (and the 3008) do definitely, absolutely, certainly not lack power! It takes only a moment of thought too to realise that there is no way Onkyo would allow the 609 - a cheap low-end unit - to outperform their flagship unit.


I echo your findings.


There are so many 'ifs' and 'buts' to power specs that it is very difficult to draw valid comparisons. The 5008 user manual says this in the specs:

145 Watts/Channel @ 8 ohms (FTC)
220 Watts/Channel @ 6 ohms (IEC)
280 Watts/Channel @ 6 ohms (JEITA)

Setting aside that these outputs are not quoted against any relevant distortion figures, nor with how many channels driven, nor at what frequency used, which renders them fairly useless anyway, how many people know the difference between the FTC, IEC and JEITA methods of calculating output wattages? And when one is compared into 8 ohms and the others into 6 ohms, one can see why people are so easily confused. And this is from the manufacturer too!

Admittedly, the same user manual does contain this in the small print:

• 145 watts minimum continuous power per channel, 8 ohm loads, 2 channels driven from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, with a maximum total harmonic distortion of 0.05% (FTC)
  
• 175 watts minimum continuous power per channel, 8 ohm loads, 2 channels driven at 1 kHz, with a maximum total harmonic distortion of 0.7% (FTC)
  
• 185 watts minimum continuous power per channel, 6 ohm loads, 2 channels driven at 1 kHz, with a maximum total harmonic distortion of 0.1% (FTC)

They can make the figures show anything they like really. If you used 6 ohm load, with a THD of 0.8%, you could probably fairly state 250 watts per channel into 2 channels driven. How many people would spot the increase in the THD spec? And how many people quote the THD, frequency, channels driven and load impedance when they bandy about "this AVR is xxx watts and that beats this one that is only yyy watts"? They are comparing apples with aardvarks.

Am I damaging my equipment by amplifying all 9 of my speakers with the TX-NR5008? I usually listen at low to moderate volume levels. Occasionally, during loud or busy scenes, I will hear a relay click in the receiver. There appears to be no deleterious effect from this thus far, and I don't think the sound ceases even for an instant. Just that relay click on rare occasion . . .

I live in an apartment, and would never listen at loud volume levels. Typical for me is volume between 45-55, Dynamic EQ on, Dynamic Volume at Light, and a powered subwoofer that provides its own amplification. It's worked great for just about a year and I haven't had any problems.

What's that relay click all about -- is my intuition correct that it's the Onkyo receiver trying to protect itself?

No, you are not damaging your receiver! You are damaging your receiver about as much as you are damaging your car by driving it! You are using it for what it was intended....

+1 I agree, It seems all this talk about clipping without a powerful amp has scared someone or more.


deano86 is correct, you are not going to damage your equipment by driving 9channels, it was designed for that.

A relay click is something different while watching a movie, but the way you describe it, I am wondering what is your source. Is it a blu-ray movie, over the air broadcast or satellite TV(direcTV or Dish network)?

Source: Oppo BDP-93.

I have the same receiver with the same blu-ray player. I only get clicking when source changing, and at the opening previews of movies when it's switching from dd to hd signal. Never during a movie.

Did you do any firmware updates? I was thinking he might need one, or it could be the HDMI cable.

I did one FW update. Yes it could be a faulty hi cable but he indicated the clicking only happening when the volume is turned up

Oops I meant hdmi cable. Stupid iPhone autocorrect

Maybe a closer look at his speakers, to make sure there isn't any Ohms mixture. Hopefully, he isn't using a HTiB for the heights.

It's fine to run speakers with different impedances in the same system. Eg, 4 ohm speakers on the L & R and 8 ohm for the centre, or 4 ohm across the front three and 8 ohm for the surrounds. This won't cause any problems, and definitely not relay clicks in the AVR!

I mentioned, if he is using some HTiB speakers, most of the time they are lower then 4 ohms(some), if they are lower then 4ohms and he is playing it loud, the protection will/may kick in.

The protection and what the clicking sounds like, he could be mixing up.

Yet, your example, that can cause problems, mixing ohms is not good. that can have issues with current, One can be over powered, while the other can be under powered. Maybe this is old thinking, but I haven't come across anything to say different.

If It was so different, why do they have the options in the menu to select one or the other.

Polk towers up front, nice matching center right below the TV, wides, highs, and the only thing not Polk: my Jamo dipole surrounds. I don't see HDMI being an issue, I don't think audio is especially bandwidth intensive over HDMI, especially bitstreaming as I do.

Thick copper wire to each speaker. Onkyo setup doesn't show that it had to do anything weird to any particular speaker, so I don't see impedence being an issue. However, I do have 9 speakers hooked up. All amplified by the TX-NR5008, perhaps it just runs up to its ceiling on occasion?

All 4 ohm speakers are lower than 4 ohms sometimes The THX spec is that the impedance mustn't dip below 3.2 ohms at any time, for example.


I doubt it. If protection kicks in, it doesn't click - it shuts down.


It's old and it's wrong It makes no difference mixing them so long as the amp can handle the lower impedance, obviously.


I told you the other day. It's to enable them to pass UL certification.

I have a suggestion -- my Polk Left/Right towers have frequency response down to 40Hz or so, so I have the cutoff at 40Hz for those two speakers, and I believe 60Hz for my center. I'm aware that the industry standard is 80Hz, nevertheless I (Rank: amateur) know better, right?

Anyway, I'm also aware that the lower frequencies take a lot of juice to amplify, and it tends to be loud, base-rich scenes that trigger the relay click. I'm guessing that the receiver has trouble powering all the speakers through such a moment, reaches an uncomfortable current, and then engages current-limiting mode (if there is such a thing).

Thoughts?