New Onkyo TX-NR5008 & TX-NR3008 - Page 278

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Originally Posted by tsaville 

Generally, I agree with this concept (it's the same reason consumer car reviews are largely useless), but I don't think it's entirely applicable in this case for a couple of reasons:

1. It's not just new posters popping in to report problems. Regular and semi-regular posters are also reporting issues.

Maybe, but the forums still only represent a tiny, tiny percentage of owners who come here specifically because they have the problem, so it is not statistically possible to draw any meaningful conclusion from such a self-selecting sample.

I can't comment on the other makes because I almost never visit their threads. Pioneer and Yamaha are tiny in the world of AVRs by comparison with Denon and Onkyo, so one would expect fewer complaints, numerically speaking.

There is no evidence. Not really. Evidence of 'serious quality issues' would be knowing what percentage of total sales failed and nobody knows that. All that we have from the forums is anecdotal, and it is from a body of people who come to the forums simply because they have a problem. This is called 'self-selection' and it invalidates any conclusions statistically speaking. The bottom line is: we have no idea if Onkyo have a serious problem, or just the normal rate of failure for their industry as a percentage of total sales.

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Originally Posted by btinindy 

Ha, I was actually going to add that I thought it actually sounds better to me leaving it on, but I have no measurements, etc. and DI not want to start a war of words.

I actually think it is "Greener" of me to leave it on all the time, because he last time it would not function properly I was ready to throw it into the refuse container!

I think mine sounds better when it has reached operating temperature too. I can’t prove it and I can't really see why SS gear would need a 'warm up' period, but I am convinced it does sound better after warming up. I usually switch the HT system on an hour before I want to use it.

And yes - it is definitely greener to use a few watts a year as opposed to throwing the unit in the trash!  (And then buying another to replace it with!) :)

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Originally Posted by Audiodork 

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

It's not a bad idea to let electronics gear stay on all the time. The stress of switching on and off is much greater than the stress of leaving the stuff on. My Class A amp in my music system has been permanently on for 20-25 years (because it sounds like crap until it's warmed up, which takes 45 minutes). Of course, your electricity bill might be higher and the Greens won’t love you....

Hello,
I follow this technique myself. My Aragon 8008bb, Parasound HCA-3500, and HCA-2205AT are all over a decade old and I have run all three 24/7 and they have been flawless.
I would leave my 3008 on 24/7, but I use Martin Logan Vantage (Mains), Stage (CC), Vista (Surrounds) and ESL Panels do go bad after a certain number of hours.

My experience with Onkyo have been overwhelmingly positive on the whole. I purchased a TX-SR805 the literal first day I could possibly buy it. I kept it about a month until I purchased a TX-SR875 to get Reon. I kept the 875 for around 4 years.

I sold both my 805 and 875 to friends who live in the same town as me and both have been perfect. The TX-NR3007 that replaced my 875 did end up being replaced by Onkyo for a 3008. FWIW, the 3007 was the only one of the 4 that was a B-Stock as Onkyo ended up giving me an A-Stock 3008. The 3008 has been rock solid as well.

I know several friends who are still using TX-SR805 and 875's to this day and I do not know of many having issues with their 3008 aside from those who needed to get their Serial/IDE Cable replaced. However, HDMI Board issues seem to have been far fess. The x09 and forward seem to be doing even better. I do also think the much higher number of Onkyo sales has something to do with more folks having issues. I also think many do not follow the air clearance guidelines in the Owners Manual which makes issues more likely.
Cheers,
AD

Yes, I have had 4 Onkyo units and all have performed without problems. Not many people come onto a forum to say "hey - my xxxxxx works just great and I have no problems or questions at all!" :)  That's the problem with drawing a conclusion from the problem reports here. If you have a thread entitled "The xxxxx faults thread" it seems fairly likely it will soon fill up with people who have the xxxxx and faults ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsaville 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 


Maybe, but the forums still only represent a tiny, tiny percentage of owners who come here specifically because they have the problem, so it is not statistically possible to draw any meaningful conclusion from such a self-selecting sample.

I can't comment on the other makes because I almost never visit their threads. Pioneer and Yamaha are tiny in the world of AVRs by comparison with Denon and Onkyo, so one would expect fewer complaints, numerically speaking.



There is no evidence. Not really. Evidence of 'serious quality issues' would be knowing what percentage of total sales failed and nobody knows that. All that we have from the forums is anecdotal, and it is from a body of people who come to the forums simply because they have a problem. This is called 'self-selection' and it invalidates any conclusions statistically speaking. The bottom line is: we have no idea if Onkyo have a serious problem, or just the normal rate of failure for their industry as a percentage of total sales.

I do read the threads for other AVRs (primarily Denon and Yamaha, not so much Pioneer), and there is nothing comparable to this in those threads. For Denon, the most common questions/complaints I see involve firmware updates ('which firmware update do I need to fix xxxxx' / 'I can't update my firmware; please help'). I don't really see any recurring issues in the Yamaha threads.



Another thing I'd like to point out is that the the people reporting the failures bought their receivers in late 2010/early 2011, falling into that magical 18 to 24 month window. What about the people who bought their receivers later in 2011 (and beyond)? My guess is we'll start hearing from them in the next 6 to 12 months. Also, I'd say most AVS members fall into the "power user" category. I know people with nice gear who only use their media rooms once per week (at most). If the failures are based on usage, as seems to be the case, you might never hear from these people.

We may not be able to statistically prove that Onkyo has a serious issue, but there is a clear pattern with Onkyo on these forums that simply doesn't exist for other brands. I'm not sure how that can be ignored.

Anyhow, for those unaffected, keep on enjoying your gear! I'll check back in a couple of years to see how the x09 and x10 series are faring before I jump back on board.

Your post is just speculation (as was mine), That is all that can be done really, in the absence of any conclusive data.

Because 1% of a million is a lot more than 1% of 100,000?

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Originally Posted by Theresa 

I guess I'm just another anecdotal case. We will never know what percentage have this problem until and if Onkyo admits to the extent of the problem. Their admission that they are installing newly designed HDMI boards is evidence that it is a design flaw. I've had mine for just thirteen months but it's a refurbished unit so I don't actually know its age. I had hoped that it had it's HDMI board replaced already as part of being refurbished but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

Yep - it is a design flaw for sure. However, we don't know if they used the same board in all the models or if some have slightly different ones, or ones made by other manufacturers and so on. So it's impossible to know if every x008 is affected, or just some. So all we can do is speculate, which is interesting but ultimately gets us nowhere. And as Max said earlier, the cycle is a long one, so it could be a long time before the problem is a) identified and then b) fixed for new models coming off the production line. I have a 5509 which I bought in November 2011 and I have no idea if the HDMI issue will be fixed or not. Won't know until this time next year I guess. My unit is used every day and is on for several hours a day, so that might show up any issues sooner rather than later. I just don't know. If it does fail and is repairable under warranty, what would I do?  I'm not sure. I think it is a totally terrific prepro, so my inclination would be to get it repaired and then re-install it. If the repair was going to take a month, then I don't think I would want to go without movies for a month, so I'd probably do what you did and see if I can find an attractively priced alternative to tide me over, which I would then probably sell once the 5509 was repaired. An Onkyo 818 would make a good prepro for me, except for the fact they have implemented XT32 in an odd way in that unit and it can't EQ two subs individually, which makes it dubious for me. All the 4311s will be gone long before I might need one, as that would be an obvious choice otherwise. Hopefully, my 5509 won't be affected anyway and all this is academic.

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Originally Posted by Theresa 

I too use mine a great deal, 6-10 hours a day. I couldn't do without my videos and music. I hope for your sake that the 09's aren't afflicted with the HDMI fault.

Thanks, Theresa. I guess we'll know sooner or later. Seems the critical time will be about a year from now...

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Originally Posted by tsaville 

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 


Because 1% of a million is a lot more than 1% of 100,000?

Do we have sales figures for the major brands? A quick google search didn't turn up anything useful.

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Yep - it is a design flaw for sure. However, we don't know if they used the same board in all the models or if some have slightly different ones, or ones made by other manufacturers and so on. So it's impossible to know if every x008 is affected, or just some.

If it is, in fact, a design flaw, then by definition it affects all units. Considering how long it takes for these boards to fail, it seems unlikely that it's a manufacturing defect by a particular supplier. More likely, part supplier X and Y are building to the same (flawed) design specs.

I design/code software for a living. If I have a major design flaw in a portion of my application, then it will affect everyone who uses that component. In order to fix it, I will likely have to completely scrap the original design and start fresh, which could be a significant effort. If what Onkyo is dealing with is a design flaw (either with the design of the board itself or the overall architecture of the receiver), then there is no simple fix. It's unlikely that they identified this issue in mid production cycle and designed new boards to fix it.

As I said earlier, people who use their HT to watch one movie per week may not see this issue for many years, but for heavy users there seems to be a pretty clear timeframe. I look forward to the update on your 5509 in November 2013.

The design flaw will affect all the HDMI boards designed with the flaw. But we have no way of knowing if Onkyo use the same board, from the same manufacturer or what. It's possible they have more than one supplier for components (probable even) and the flaw may be in one manufacturer's board and not in another. Nobody knows.  Your speculation is as valid as anyone's though - but it can never be more than speculation as we have no data.

I will, of course, update AVS, via the appropriate thread, if my 5509 gives me any issues.

Edit: I posted Onkyo sales figures a while back, but can't recall in which thread. Onkyo is the biggest AVR manufacturer in the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurkey 

Because of the apparent delay of the flaw (18 - 24 month) showing up, there will be a considerable delay in realizing the problem and taking counteractions.
It might even be, that those boards were designed and manufactured outside Onkyo / Integra by a supplier.

Indeed. More than likely I'd guess.

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Originally Posted by tmn107 

I wish I had the funds to get a backup receiver while it was in for repair as this is what I would do as I am unable to use my home theater at all while the receiver is out for repair. That means I am unable to watch tv, watch movies, or play xbox at all while the receiver is out for repair. This is what frustrates me the most about it all, especially since this is the second time in ~22 months that the HDMI board has to be repaired. I was hoping in that buying an approximately $2000 receiver that I would not have to mess with it once it was all set up.
 

I can definitely empathise and sympathise with your situation. I would feel exactly the same in your shoes too. Please don't construe any of my remarks which some take to be a 'defence' of Onkyo as an indication that I diminish the feelings of anger and frustration in people such as yourself who have had the misfortune to suffer these problems. I really do feel your pain on this.