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AVS Official Mitsubishi 3DC-1000 3D Starter Pack Topic! - Page 98

post #2911 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottm18 View Post


I guess buy the whole starter pack with everything else in here useless for me?

Yeah, that's what i had to do. hoping to sell the glasses and emitter. Anyone needing these pm me.

Edit: glasses sold, still have new never used emitter.
post #2912 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

I get crushed blacks when going through the 3DC-1000 even when the source is my DirecTV DVR, and DirecTV should using 16-235. I can double-check tonight, but I don't think there's even an option for changing the scale in the DVR.

FWIW, I checked, and could not find any settings on the DVR to change the luminance scale or the color space (my understanding is you have to output RGB and 16-235 to avoid black crush with the 3DC-1000). So unless I'm missing something, depending on your equipment, bypassing the adapter may be the only way to avoid black crush.
post #2913 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

FWIW, I checked, and could not find any settings on the DVR to change the luminance scale or the color space (my understanding is you have to output RGB and 16-235 to avoid black crush with the 3DC-1000). So unless I'm missing something, depending on your equipment, bypassing the adapter may be the only way to avoid black crush.

An easy check is any THX DVD. In the video setup menu is a PLUGE with 7-8 gray bars (it has a large THX in the center).

One should be able to adjust so each bar is a separate shade of gray. If you are experiencing black crush, the darkest 3 bars will be one solid shade of black. This is easily tested with the PS3, since it can be swapped back and forth from PC 0-255 and Video 16-235 using the settings I provided.

If you cannot match your source to the adapter, then yes, you will need a workaround, but this statement is still false:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post


[snip]... 1. As we know the 3DA-1 crushes blackseven in 2D and this is 80% of what I watch...

My point was that it is neither the adaptor nor the source at fault, but the mismatch of the two.

If you put deisel fuel into a gasoline engine, it won't run. It is not the deisel pump's fault that your car takes regular gas and won't run, nor is it the car's fault that it doesn't take deisel. It's all about matching what is required to what is provided.
post #2914 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

If you cannot match your source to the adapter, then yes, you will need a workaround, but this statement is still false:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post

1. As we know the 3DA-1 crushes blackseven in 2D and this is 80% of what I watch

My point was that it is neither the adaptor nor the source at fault, but the mismatch of the two.

I would suggest that Mitsubishi is at fault for producing a product that can not properly handle YCC colorspace in an industry where YCC is the standard for digital video. His statement isn't false if it's used in a typical setup that uses YCC.
post #2915 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

I would suggest that Mitsubishi is at fault for producing a product that can not properly handle YCC colorspace in an industry where YCC is the standard for digital video. His statement isn't false if it's used in a typical setup that uses YCC.

YCC is a way of encoding RGB to allow compression and storage. RGB is converted to YCC, then back to RGB to be displayed. Your DVR is incapable of decoding YCC to RGB, so I could just as easily suggest that your dish company is at fault, when in fact neither cause the black crush. The mismatch causes it.

Would it have been easier if Mitsubishi enabled both in the adaptor? Yes.
post #2916 of 2966
Here's a good read: http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/artic...olorspace.html

Quote:


Most people are at least a bit familiar with the way images are formed on a computer monitor or television by combining red, green, and blue dots of varying brightness to form a wide range of colors. That method uses the most common kind of color space, the “RGB” space, named for the colors Red, Green, and Blue.

Quote:


Given that all the various shiny-disc and broadcast video formats use 4:2:0 natively, one might assume that players would just send the video to the display in that format. But as it turns out, video players are basically required to at minimum convert the video to 4:2:2 in order to send it to the display, because there are standards for storing 4:2:0, but no standards for sending it to a display. While only 4:2:2 is required, many players now also offer the ability to go further and convert the video to 4:4:4, or even RGB.

And now we get to the meat of this guide. What format should you set your player to output? If you have a video processor, what format should you feed it, and what format should you have it produce? Or does it even matter?


The answer, as with so many other things in life, is, “It depends.”


The Conversion Chain

Let’s consider the process necessary to get video off a shiny disc (or from a digital broadcast or cable channel). First the video needs to be converted from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, then to 4:4:4, then to RGB, and finally it can be fed to the display controller. This is the same process no matter what display technology is being used, whether LCD, DLP, plasma, or CRT. It’s possible to shortcut the process slightly by going directly from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4, but in practice this isn’t used as often as you’d think.


If you choose to output 4:2:2 from your player to the display, then the display will need to do the scaling to 4:4:4 and then to RGB. If you output 4:4:4 to the display, the display will not need to do any scaling at all, but will need to do the conversion to RGB. If you output RGB to the display, then the display can avoid all conversion steps and send the signal right to the controller. No matter which you choose, the same conversion steps are still happening; all you are choosing is which device is performing the conversion.


There’s no specific reason that a display or a player would be the optimal place to do these conversion steps. In theory doing the conversion in the display minimizes the amount of data that has to flow across the HDMI link, but in practice HDMI is more than adequate to handle any format all the way up to 4:4:4 or RGB.


So the key to choosing the right color space to output is finding out which device does a better job of converting color spaces. This is not always easy to evaluate, and it’s quite possible for one device to do a better job in one area, like 4:2:2 to 4:4:4, but do worse in another area, like 4:4:4 to RGB.

You’d think that if a display handles a 4:2:2 input signal well, then feeding it an RGB signal would be no worse, but in fact some displays do extra work when they are fed RGB, because they convert the signal back to 4:4:4 or even 4:2:2!


This happens because one or more of their internal processing chips is designed only for one color format. So for these displays, sending in any format other than the one it will use for internal processing will only add extra processing and potentially degrade the image.

The article points no fingers, but goes on to demonstrate how to match the source to the display.
post #2917 of 2966
Are there ANY other HD CE devices intended for use with consumer video that don't properly support YCC? Considering that YCC is the standard that all consumer digital video discs are encoded to, I would expect it to be a very short list. Sure, doing both is even better, but if you're only going to support one, shouldn't it be the standard? RGB is typically for computer graphics, and typically at 0-255. But regardless, we are where we are. We have to deal with it, either by changing our equipment to use RGB 16-235 if it has that option, accepting crushed blacks, or bypassing the adapter when it's not needed to at least limit the effects to 3D viewing. I've chosen the latter, since not all of my equipment supports RGB.
post #2918 of 2966
So what settings should the PS3 use when displaying 3D through the 3DA-1? What exactly should I go in and change on the PS3 settings?
post #2919 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickels55 View Post

So what settings should the PS3 use when displaying 3D through the 3DA-1? What exactly should I go in and change on the PS3 settings?

+1. Now I'm curious as well.
post #2920 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickels55 View Post

So what settings should the PS3 use when displaying 3D through the 3DA-1? What exactly should I go in and change on the PS3 settings?

One page back:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

The 3DA-1 only crushes blacks if it is receiving a mismatched video signal.

If you're using a PS3, use these settings:

Settings> Video Settings> BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI)> RGB

Settings> Display Settings> RGB Full Range (HDMI)> Limited

More about it here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post20462332
__________________
post #2921 of 2966
I'm sure this has been answered before, but here it goes:

If you were to take the adapter out of the box, plug it in the wall without any cables attached to it ( no 3D device attached to back of adapter), then will you see no power on the adapter even when you try to power it on with the adapter power on button? I saw no power at all on the adapter. I read somewhere that it woldn't turn on, but I needed verification of that.

Bugs
post #2922 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugs123 View Post

I'm sure this has been answered before, but here it goes:

If you were to take the adapter out of the box, plug it in the wall without any cables attached to it ( no 3D device attached to back of adapter), then will you see no power on the adapter even when you try to power it on with the adapter power on button? I saw no power at all on the adapter. I read somewhere that it woldn't turn on, but I needed verification of that.

Bugs

The adatper box will NOT turn on under the conditions you listed.

It must have a live incomming HDMI signal (not just a cable or a turned off source device) comming to HDMI IN jack before you can turn it on. And when there is a signal, it will turn on automatically. This is outside of the automatic 3D <> 2D switching.

The system is automatic, when you turn on your Blu-ray player or AV Reciever that is connect to the IN, the box turns on automatically and when your turn off that source device the box turns off automatically (saves electrial power when not being actively used).

The manual power ON/OFF function is for conditions like many cable boxes that never stop sending a signal even when turned off. Many cable boxes send a consistant black screen signal even when turned off. In this condition the adapter always sees a signal and will not turn off automatically. If you care about power use, you can still turn if off manually.
post #2923 of 2966
Does anyone else think that non 3d signals look worse going through this adapter. I have it between rec and tv, so all video passes through it.
post #2924 of 2966
Thanks GEP. I really appreciate the quick reply on that. You are "Da Man". I'm a new member but have been a lurker for several months.
post #2925 of 2966
Quote:


Does anyone else think that non 3d signals look worse going through this adapter. I have it between rec and tv, so all video passes through it.

Search through this thread for "black crush." A lot of people (including me) have used an HDMI matrix switch to route the 3D adapter around so that it is not in the chain when watching standard 2D.
post #2926 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by landonsdad View Post

Does anyone else think that non 3d signals look worse going through this adapter. I have it between rec and tv, so all video passes through it.

See post #2920 (three posts above yours). The PS3 can be set to not crush blacks. Results vary with cable/sat boxes, so tlogan6797's HDMI matrix switch might be your only solution.
post #2927 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

See post #2920 (three posts above yours). The PS3 can be set to not crush blacks. Results vary with cable/sat boxes, so tlogan6797's HDMI matrix switch might be your only solution.

Thanks to you and others here for help.

I am not using a PS3, I use a Panasonic 3d player. Not sure if I am seeing crushed blacks or not. What I see is a video quality loss on normal channels, especially on letters like on cnn, seem blurry.

EPSN in 1080 looks good. Blu rays look good.

I will see if I have a THX dvd and see if I can tell the black issue this way. Any other tricks?

My Denon 3808 and Mits DLP both are supposed to be able to up scale the picture, but I am not sure if they are set to do so or if possible in my setup.

If someone would like to pm me with a phone number to get my amateur questions answered quicker I would appreciate it. Or I could provide a number if allowed and requested through pm.

I was very good with coax, rca, 2d, a/b switches, and splitters, but have fallen behind in times in regards to hdmi and 3d especially.

Thanks.. Rick
post #2928 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by landonsdad View Post

Thanks to you and others here for help.

I am not using a PS3, I use a Panasonic 3d player. Not sure if I am seeing crushed blacks or not. What I see is a video quality loss on normal channels, especially on letters like on cnn, seem blurry.

EPSN in 1080 looks good. Blu rays look good.

I will see if I have a THX dvd and see if I can tell the black issue this way. Any other tricks?

My Denon 3808 and Mits DLP both are supposed to be able to up scale the picture, but I am not sure if they are set to do so or if possible in my setup.

If someone would like to pm me with a phone number to get my amateur questions answered quicker I would appreciate it. Or I could provide a number if allowed and requested through pm.

I was very good with coax, rca, 2d, a/b switches, and splitters, but have fallen behind in times in regards to hdmi and 3d especially.

Thanks.. Rick

Your TV upscales automatically - it has not choice, it must. When you press the INFO key on the remote while watching the TV, you see what the incomming signal is before the automatic upconversion, not what you are seeing on the screen. What you are seeing is 1080p 60Hz at all times. Anything that is not 1080p 60Hz needs to be changed to 1080p 60Hz because that is only way the TV displays a picture. You do not need to do anything to the TV for this to happen.

However if you want it upscaled outside of the TV, for instance in your AVR, then you need to make sure the AVR is set to do that.

As with everything the less upcoversion or fewer conversions the better the final result will be. Blu-ray discs will alwasy look best, then HD channels. DVD discs (remember Blu-ray is not DVD and DVD is not HD) will come in next, followed by SD digital channels, then SD analog channels and pulling up the rear is VHS. The poorer the original signal equals poorer upconversion.
post #2929 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by landonsdad View Post

Thanks to you and others here for help.

I am not using a PS3, I use a Panasonic 3d player. Not sure if I am seeing crushed blacks or not. What I see is a video quality loss on normal channels, especially on letters like on cnn, seem blurry.

Thanks.. Rick

Are you sure that your Panasonic player doesn't support "checkerboard" 3d? Check the specs in the manual and see. If it does, then you can bypass the Mits 3d adapter and connect directly to the TV, assuming you have an empty HDMI input available.

My Panasonic DMP-BDT300 is about 2 yrs. old does checkerboard and works fine w/my Mits TV.
post #2930 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajricaud View Post

Are you sure that your Panasonic player doesn't support "checkerboard" 3d? Check the specs in the manual and see. If it does, then you can bypass the Mits 3d adapter and connect directly to the TV, assuming you have an empty HDMI input available.

My Panasonic DMP-BDT300 is about 2 yrs. old does checkerboard and works fine w/my Mits TV.

Yes my Pan does checkerboard and does not require adapter. My cable box does require adapter and I am not sure about my ps3. It is only used for games and haven't tried 3d game yet.

If my cable box output checkerboard I would be happy. How long or if possible before someone could create a converter to convert other 3d formats to checkerboard, besides the mits kit.

I am surprised I can send all 3d content from cable box and Panny through my 1.3 Denon 3808. Haven't tried PS3. Does any one know about this?

Thanks
post #2931 of 2966
The PS3 uses "frame-packing" 3D format and requires the adapter for checkerboard only sets.
post #2932 of 2966
Quote:
Yes my Pan does checkerboard and does not require adapter. My cable box does require adapter and I am not sure about my ps3.

You could still use the HDMI matrix switch to route the Panny AND the cable around the adapter when not needed.
post #2933 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by landonsdad View Post

How long or if possible before someone could create a converter to convert other 3d formats to checkerboard, besides the mits kit.

I am surprised I can send all 3d content from cable box and Panny through my 1.3 Denon 3808. Haven't tried PS3. Does any one know about this?

Thanks

How possible is it for someone to make a converter from Frame Packed, Top/Bottom, and Side-by-side to checkerboard?

It is always possible. The real question is how many companies can make a profit from the rather few customers for such a product. Remember only Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP Rear Projection TVs from about 3 model years would need such a device. That is really a very small market. The fact that Mitsubishi did is really very surprising. Samsung didn't bother, most likely figuring that there was not enough market for profit.

To see Black Crush, play a 2D Blu-ray, with a lot of dark scenes you know well, without the adapter in place. Select a dark scene that you can see details in the shadows. Play the same with the adapter in place. If you see the same amount of details in the dark scene you are not experiencing Black Crush. If, with the adapter, most of the details in the dark shadows become lost in black, then you have Black Crush. Be careful, as with passing signals through other devices may always cause minor changes as there is no such thing as a perfect device. If there is only a little change, you may be able to compensate satisfactorily with the contrast and brightness controls of the TV.
post #2934 of 2966
Hi all...

Been a while since I even looked up th 3DC-1000. Now I have a 3D BluRay player...and I'm wondering about compatability.

Since I have a Pioneer Elite, SC-05 which is HDMI 1.3...I assume I cannot pass through a 3D signal from my Sony BDP-S590 to the SC-05 to the 3DC-1000 and into my Mits 65737...correct?

I assume I have to run the HDMI from the Player to the 3DC-1000 to my 65737, and just use optical out from the Player to the SC-05. I know I am missing out of HD Sound that way...but I can't really afford a new receiver.

So...whaddya say?
post #2935 of 2966
First off, try it. HDMI 1.3 IS high speed and should support 3D. If not, than you are correct in your path. Optical will still get you HD sound, as I understand it, just not the latest lossless stream. Also from what I understand, you probably will NOT hear the difference.
post #2936 of 2966
Sorry if this has been covered recently.

I've waded through numerous Mitsubishi 3D threads after recently buying the 3DC-1000 starter pack.

I have a 73833 and I am experiencing the dreaded greenish blue tint with the IR emitter.

Is the only fix to use D link glasses and suffer the rainbow effect, or is there a firmware fix for this problem?

If no other workaround, is there a particular pair of D link glasses that have minimal rainbow issues?

Thanks in advance
post #2937 of 2966
Xpand x104. Tweak the shutter timing to make them close faster and restore the blacks.

Crystal eyes 5 if you prefer dlp link.
post #2938 of 2966
Thanks. So the x104 solve the flashing greenish blue tint problem even though they use the IR emitter?
post #2939 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSTide View Post

Thanks. So the x104 solve the flashing greenish blue tint problem even though they use the IR emitter?

Yes. Depending upon which firmware the x104 ships with, it may solve the tint issue out of the box. The more recent firware which you would likely upgrade to goofs it up again. But with the x104, you can program the shutter timing so you can fix it after the firmware update.
post #2940 of 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post

First off, try it. HDMI 1.3 IS high speed and should support 3D. If not, than you are correct in your path. Optical will still get you HD sound, as I understand it, just not the latest lossless stream. Also from what I understand, you probably will NOT hear the difference.

You lose lossless with optical yes, but you also lose the extra two channels of the 7.1 soundtrack for those titles that support it. Depending on the content, that may or may not be noticeable. I have detected a difference for some titles that do a good job with 7.1.
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