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SVS amp differences **Help**

post #1 of 28
7/15/10 at 6:34am
Thread Starter 
So SVS recently upgraded/changed the amp in the SB lineup from Bash Amps to DSP Sledge amps.

I was looking at the PC-12NSD (which still has the old amp) and looking to purchase in late August. I can wait a bit to upgrade if the newer amp is better but I am unsure about that so I emailed SVS to inquire.

There email response ball parked the possibility of the new amp in the PC & PB lineup as potentially by the end of the year (didn't expect, nor want them to reveal any real insider information).

So basically they advised me that the newer amp would result in about a <1 dB increase in max output which is negligible. The reason for this post is I didn't understand this part of the email.
Quote:


The biggest advantage for moving to this amp from our standpoint is more flexibility is adjusting the frequency response and limiter settings digitally instead of in the analog domain


Can someone explain what that phrase means? I am a little out of my element on some of this stuff. Also is that enough of a game changer to justify waiting? I dont want to buy the sub and then potentially have to upgrade the amp later if I could have just waited till they released the new one....
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post #2 of 28
7/15/10 at 6:47pm
Ender, I just attended a GTG where a member on another forum who "is in the know" heard first hand that SVS is heading to cheaper parts to maximize profits. It seems this new amp is one of those changes, it seems that the specs alone isnt worthy of a company changing it's amp design that has worked for over a decade for a less than 1db minimal improvement that nobody will notice, yet it makes perfect sense for a company to change a design that costs less (and maybe uses less inferior parts) to maximize profits.

No I will not devulge who I heard this from and the first hand person he got this information from. But I do trust this person completely.

Go with the older amp design that is tried and true.


and if that doesnt convince you Wikipedia is your friend.

"Problems -
Although digital speakers can function, there are various problems with this design which make it impractical for any normal uses at present"
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post #3 of 28
7/15/10 at 7:58pm
You seem to have the misconception that a digital speaker and a speaker driven by a digital class amp are the same thing. They most certainly are not.

Also, SVS has never been known to compromise performance for the sake of cheap parts. What you are saying doesn't smell right.
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post #4 of 28
7/15/10 at 11:37pm
So they've sourced new amps. I don't know the scuttlebutt, but I've been told, that with the DSP and improved efficiency (and power), the new units are more expensive than the previous BASH revs. BASH was a long time partner for SVS, but it's not like there weren't problems that needed improvement. As far as parts quality, that remains to be seen, but, I'm sure SVS is looking for trouble free amps, better performance and less RMAs. For a small company to support distributors and customers with spares is quite expensive. That's one of the reasons they took drivers in house. They are changing their model a bit...goes with the territory.

ES, I think they mean that it's easier to apply curves, boosts and filters digitally via firmware, than by removing or adding inductors, resistors, caps, etc. in the analog domain. Basically, you buy a vanilla amp, install the DSP and it applies all controls to the current. I'm not technical, but that's what I read in the statement. That should effect the cost per part, but the added DSP and other features are still going to increase the price.
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post #5 of 28
7/16/10 at 4:45am
Our current BASH amps are made in China. They were formerly made in Canada before Indigo was purchased by Sonavox.

Our new STA-400D platform is also made in China, and is more expensive than our current 325W BASH platform. We feel the STA-400D is a better amp, otherwise we wouldn't have made the switch to this new supplier. The component quality is high, the electrical efficiency and output performance is excellent, and the QA/QC manufacturing protocol is highly rigorous.

While our current BASH amp failure rate falls within industry standards for this topology platform, we're expecting an improvement in reliability (in addition to better performance) from the new amp platform, and that will benefit both the customer and SVS.

So we're not 'cutting costs to maximize profits' - a more accurate description would be that SVS has invested heavily in a new amp platform which is more expensive than its predecessor, in an effort to improve reliability and overall performance.

Regarding the DSP - Ron is bang-on of course. Adjusting the voltage transfer function (VTF) and the compressor/limiter settings in the analog domain by physically/manually tweaking and substituting components is slow and laborious. The new STA-400D uses a well-established and state-of-the-art DSP software suite which is extremely powerful and sophisticated. Adjusting the VTF and limiter/compressor settings in the digital domain is much easier and faster, and we're obtaining more precise and customized parameters for each NSD subwoofer model.
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post #6 of 28
7/16/10 at 4:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

So they've sourced new amps. I don't know the scuttlebutt, but I've been told, that with the DSP and improved efficiency (and power), the new units are more expensive than the previous BASH revs. BASH was a long time partner for SVS, but it's not like there weren't problems that needed improvement. As far as parts quality, that remains to be seen, but, I'm sure SVS is looking for trouble free amps, better performance and less RMAs. For a small company to support distributors and customers with spares is quite expensive. That's one of the reasons they took drivers in house. They are changing their model a bit...goes with the territory.

ES, I think they mean that it's easier to apply curves, boosts and filters digitally via firmware, than by removing or adding inductors, resistors, caps, etc. in the analog domain. Basically, you buy a vanilla amp, install the DSP and it applies all controls to the current. I'm not technical, but that's what I read in the statement. That should effect the cost per part, but the added DSP and other features are still going to increase the price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Our current BASH amps are made in China. They were formerly made in Canada before Indigo was purchased by Sonavox.

Our new STA-400D platform is also made in China, and is more expensive than our current 325W BASH platform. We feel the STA-400D is a better amp, otherwise we wouldn't have made the switch to this new supplier. The component quality is high, the electrical efficiency and output performance is excellent, and the QA/QC manufacturing protocol is highly rigorous.

While our current BASH amp failure rate falls within industry standards for this topology platform, we're expecting an improvement in reliability (in addition to better performance) from the new amp platform, and that will benefit both the customer and SVS.

So we're not 'cutting costs to maximize profits' - a more accurate description would be that SVS has invested heavily in a new amp platform which is more expensive than its predecessor, in an effort to improve reliability and overall performance.

Regarding the DSP - Ron is bang-on of course. Adjusting the voltage transfer function (VTF) and the compressor/limiter settings in the analog domain by physically/manually tweaking and substituting components is slow and laborious. The new STA-400D uses a well-established and state-of-the-art DSP software suite which is extremely powerful and sophisticated. Adjusting the VTF and limiter/compressor settings in the digital domain is much easier and faster, and we're obtaining more precise and customized parameters for each NSD subwoofer model.


Thank you. That explains it much better for me, and is all I needed to know. I will purchase when I have the cash regardless of whatever amp it has.

@Ed your company has ever right to work on mitigating costs. There is a reason your price to performance ratio is as good as it is. You sourced components better than others to provide a good product at a low price. Regardless of where the amp is made since your name is on it I would assume the quality is good otherwise the companies reputation would go down which wouldnt help sales. I was only wanting clarification on if the DSP amp was going to make it much easier to setup the sub. I now have that. Thanks!
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post #7 of 28
7/16/10 at 5:15am
You are most welcome.

As any long-time customer/enthusiast knows, SVS has always stood behind its products 100%. No matter which amp version you purchase, it will be fully backed and warrantied.

The current BASH platform is of course well dialed-in. So the 'real world' performance differences between the two amps from the customer's standpoint are not huge - both amps have about the same max SPL (the difference between 325W and 400W is about 1 dB), and both amps prevent subwoofer overload from a limiter/compressor standpoint.

We do have more control in the digital domain with the limiter/compressor scheme (it is highly adjustable for several parameters), so we have better control over the sub at the bleeding edge of the performance envelope. So if a customer routinely pushes the sub to its limits (something we don't advise anyway as a matter of course), he might notice a more transparent limiter with a faster recovery time as compared to the analog version. But it's not something noticeable in normal/typical operating mode.
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post #8 of 28
7/16/10 at 5:25am
Hi Ed. Regarding the future possible amp upgrade to the 13 Ultra, are there any more details you can provide at this time?
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post #9 of 28
7/16/10 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

.....So we're not 'cutting costs to maximize profits' - a more accurate description would be that SVS has invested heavily in a new amp platform which is more expensive than its predecessor, in an effort to improve reliability and overall performance.

It HAS to drive you guys crazy when you read the rumors the float around. I mean If I ran the company...and read some of the stuff that floats around, exactly opposit of what is actually taking place, it would drive me through the roof! Man, you need thick skin. No offense to anyone...just sayin'
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post #10 of 28
7/16/10 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

It HAS to drive you guys crazy when you read the rumors the float around. I mean If I ran the company...and read some of the stuff that floats around, exactly opposit of what is actually taking place, it would drive me through the roof! Man, you need thick skin. No offense to anyone...just sayin'

I was thinking the same thing. Outta the blue, this thread was born and not more than a few posts into it a FUDder shows up and attempts to crap on them. What Ed posted about the company, its goals and strategies employed to reach those goals is not really new. But what I do have to give him kudos for is his "response time."

Jeff
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post #11 of 28
7/16/10 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

I was only wanting clarification on if the DSP amp was going to make it much easier to setup the sub. I now have that. Thanks!

Set-up between the BASH and STA-400 amps will be virtually the same. The STA-400 has gain, a variable low-pass filter, and a phase control. All of them are digital, but the use interface is analog (i.e., rotary knobs).

If you have an AVR and the set-up is for HT, disable the low pass, set the phase to 0, and set the gain around 11 o'clock - and run your AVR set-up routine. It will set the distance and level on the subwoofer and that's about all there is to it. Just make sure all your speakers are set to Small with a crossover appropriate for their respective bass capabilities.

All of the DSP software, GUI, and VTF/limiter/compressor manipulation can only be viewed by SVS during amp set-up and flashing when connected to a computer. All of the DSP on the STA-400 is completely transparent to the customer, which was intentional for this platform.
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post #12 of 28
7/16/10 at 8:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Hi Ed. Regarding the future possible amp upgrade to the 13 Ultra, are there any more details you can provide at this time?

We are also in the process of replacing the current 500W and 750W BASH platforms with new 800W and 1000W DSP amps. These amps are not from the same vendor as the STA-400. These new DSP amps are very high-end and are made in Taiwan.

They will have a digital display and rotary/push single button controller with an extensive feature menu.

The new SB13-Plus will have the STA-1000 (1000W) version of this amp. Eventually the STA-800 and STA-1000 will migrate to the remainder of the Plus and Ultra lines.

The amps will also eventually be available as an upgrade to existing Plus and Ultra customers, but they won't be inexpensive, particularly the STA-1000.
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post #13 of 28
7/16/10 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

It HAS to drive you guys crazy when you read the rumors the float around. I mean If I ran the company...and read some of the stuff that floats around, exactly opposit of what is actually taking place, it would drive me through the roof! Man, you need thick skin. No offense to anyone...just sayin'

We do try to correct misconceptions where/when we can. The only people who are truly 'in the know' about how much time, manpower, and money we've invested into these new amp platforms, and how much they cost, are SVS employees and our vendors.

Half of our company is perpetually in Asia now, where we are personally overseeing and managing new product/amp development, setting up additional distribution channels in China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Korea, India, etc. and also setting up final assembly & production facilities similar to our Ohio USA operation and staffed by SVS employees.

As we grow, it only makes sense to establish production/sales/distribution channels in both parts of the globe to better service both dealers and customers.
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post #14 of 28
7/16/10 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I was thinking the same thing. Outta the blue, this thread was born and not more than a few posts into it a FUDder shows up and attempts to crap on them. What Ed posted about the company, its goals and strategies employed to reach those goals is not really new. But what I do have to give him kudos for is his "response time."

Jeff

Hi Jeff:

I can't take credit for the response time - Jack Gilvey our CS Director brought it to my attention. Jack checks the forums for threads like this, where everyone would benefit from SVS correcting any misinformation.

Otherwise we prefer to let veteran forum members and super-users manage their own SVS related threads. We do generally prefer to answer questions directly from Sales and Tech Support because it establishes an electronic paper trail and our response time is much faster.
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post #15 of 28
7/16/10 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

The amps will also eventually be available as an upgrade to existing Plus and Ultra customers, but they won't be inexpensive, particularly the STA-1000.

Sounds good...I assume it's a drop in. When it get's close, could you inform us as to the benefits?
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post #16 of 28
7/16/10 at 11:02am
Ed
What kind of performance improvements can we expect with the new 1000w DSP amp (comparing to the 750 watt BASH amp)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

We are also in the process of replacing the current 500W and 750W BASH platforms with new 800W and 1000W DSP amps. These amps are not from the same vendor as the STA-400. These new DSP amps are very high-end and are made in Taiwan.

They will have a digital display and rotary/push single button controller with an extensive feature menu.

The new SB13-Plus will have the STA-1000 (1000W) version of this amp. Eventually the STA-800 and STA-1000 will migrate to the remainder of the Plus and Ultra lines.

The amps will also eventually be available as an upgrade to existing Plus and Ultra customers, but they won't be inexpensive, particularly the STA-1000.
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post #17 of 28
7/16/10 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

We are also in the process of replacing the current 500W and 750W BASH platforms with new 800W and 1000W DSP amps. These amps are not from the same vendor as the STA-400. These new DSP amps are very high-end and are made in Taiwan.

They will have a digital display and rotary/push single button controller with an extensive feature menu.

The new SB13-Plus will have the STA-1000 (1000W) version of this amp. Eventually the STA-800 and STA-1000 will migrate to the remainder of the Plus and Ultra lines.

The amps will also eventually be available as an upgrade to existing Plus and Ultra customers, but they won't be inexpensive, particularly the STA-1000.

I find it curious that Mark Seaton is going to offer currrent (1,000 watt DSP amp) Submersive owners the 2,400 watt DSP amp for an initial target price of $350-$400, but the new SVS DSP STA-1000 "won't be inexpensive".

The first thing that comes to mind is that SVS is NOT going to accept the BASH amp from currrent owners as part of the price of the upgrade. If this is correct, people are going to have perfectly fine BASH amps with no real use for them. Meantime, Mark Seaton is going to put the exchanged original 1,000 watt amp in some forthcoming Submersives and give the buyers a discount for choosing a Submersive with a perfectly fine, but used amp.

Perhaps Ed Mullen will clarify whether SVS has any intention of accepting the original amps towards the cost of the upgrade.
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post #18 of 28
7/16/10 at 12:16pm
^ I feel the downward spiral coming in this thread.
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post #19 of 28
7/16/10 at 12:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

^ I feel the downward spiral coming in this thread.

If the Moderators want to close this thread they are more than welcome too. I didnt want any brand bashing to occur here (SVS or otherwise). I asked a question about the new amp, it was answered as well as the other questions by the person with the most relevant information.

Case closed.
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post #20 of 28
7/16/10 at 12:43pm
+1. Lets just keep the conversation to SVS ONLY.
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post #21 of 28
7/16/10 at 2:46pm
My intention in my post was not to promote FUD of any kind. I was just relaying information that had been passed on to me by a friend who had spoken to somebody at SVS and what he got from it is exactly what I passed along. I am glad that Ed and Ron could come on and give clarification on this matter, because it had surprised me when I first heard it too. (My mouth dropped when I heard this news but considering the economy, I figured this would make sense)

But like in the telephone game when it gets down a few people from the source, it can take a life of its own. I do apologize to SVS for propgading misinformation. It was just my intention to inform the OP of what I had just heard last weekend and am glad that the matter had been corrected.

Apologies.

btw, I love my SVS PB12 NSD/2 and wouldnt give it up ever, in fact the number one company I recommend to people is SVS. I have probably caused about 10 people to buy whole SVS systems (a few months ago I got my nephew to buy an entire MTS system with PB13) I am a huge fanboy of SVS which is why I was most shocked when I heard that news last weekend.
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post #22 of 28
7/16/10 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

My intention in my post was not to promote FUD of any kind. I was just relaying information that had been passed on to me by a friend who had spoken to somebody at SVS and what he got from it is exactly what I passed along. I am glad that Ed and Ron could come on and give clarification on this matter, because it had surprised me when I first heard it too. (My mouth dropped when I heard this news but considering the economy, I figured this would make sense)

But like in the telephone game when it gets down a few people from the source, it can take a life of its own. I do apologize to SVS for propgading misinformation. It was just my intention to inform the OP of what I had just heard last weekend and am glad that the matter had been corrected.

Apologies.

btw, I love my SVS PB12 NSD/2 and wouldnt give it up ever, in fact the number one company I recommend to people is SVS. I have probably caused about 10 people to buy whole SVS systems (a few months ago I got my nephew to buy an entire MTS system with PB13) I am a huge fanboy of SVS which is why I was most shocked when I heard that news last weekend.

Maybe the friend was the FUDder? I'd bet a 1000w DSP amp that he didn't get that from SVS.

Jeff
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post #23 of 28
7/16/10 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

If the Moderators want to close this thread they are more than welcome too. I didnt want any brand bashing to occur here (SVS or otherwise). I asked a question about the new amp, it was answered as well as the other questions by the person with the most relevant information.

Case closed.

My remark was based simply on experience. Just seen too many subwoofer threads turn into brand battles (and a poster or two seemed to be taking it that direction).

As to closing this thread, I can't imagine why. Seems like a very interesting topic to me as an Ultra owner, and I'm sure lots of other ones feel the same way with regards to finding out relevant info on these new amps.
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post #24 of 28
7/19/10 at 10:57am
Since this thread seems to be filled with knowledgeable people and I'm seriously considering buying my own SVS Sub soon like the OP, I was hoping you could answer a simple question that I couldn't find on SVS's page. It might be more of a general "sub" question, but here it goes:

I understand the differences between the lines, Ultra, Plus, and NSD, and the differences between the cylinder and the boxes (thanks to SVS's site!), but I don't understand what the SB, PB acronyms mean and what makes them different/better than the other. (I think those are the only two, right? PC is for the Powered Cylinder, right?)

So, what are the differences?

Thanks!
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post #25 of 28
7/19/10 at 11:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckellyusa View Post

Since this thread seems to be filled with knowledgeable people and I'm seriously considering buying my own SVS Sub soon like the OP, I was hoping you could answer a simple question that I couldn't find on SVS's page. It might be more of a general "sub" question, but here it goes:

I understand the differences between the lines, Ultra, Plus, and NSD, and the differences between the cylinder and the boxes (thanks to SVS's site!), but I don't understand what the SB, PB acronyms mean and what makes them different/better than the other. (I think those are the only two, right? PC is for the Powered Cylinder, right?)

So, what are the differences?

Thanks!


Differences between the names is as follows:

PB = Ported Box
PC = Ported Cylinder
SB = Sealed Box

The PB & PC models of the same sub (i.e. PC-12NSD & PB-12NSD) will have almost identical performance, it is simply the formfactor that is different (Cylinder requires less floor sq footage but more vertical space). Both are ported

The Sealed box is a different monster and if you need more info on that search "Sealed v. Ported" and you will get more than enough results.

My limited understanding is most folks listening mostly to music prefer sealed and it tends to be a little more accurate, but most Home Theater folks prefer ported because you get more bass for the money and a more visceral feel.

I could be wrong so feel free to correct me on any points
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post #26 of 28
7/19/10 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

My limited understanding is most folks listening mostly to music prefer sealed and it tends to be a little more accurate, but most Home Theater folks prefer sealed because you get more bass for the money and a more visceral feel.

So which one is ported better for ;-)
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post #27 of 28
7/19/10 at 12:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterkit View Post

So which one is ported better for ;-)

My Brain got ahead of my fingers again, thanks for pointing that out. I corrected it.
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post #28 of 28
9/21/10 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

We are also in the process of replacing the current 500W and 750W BASH platforms with new 800W and 1000W DSP amps. These amps are not from the same vendor as the STA-400. These new DSP amps are very high-end and are made in Taiwan.

They will have a digital display and rotary/push single button controller with an extensive feature menu.

The new SB13-Plus will have the STA-1000 (1000W) version of this amp. Eventually the STA-800 and STA-1000 will migrate to the remainder of the Plus and Ultra lines.

The amps will also eventually be available as an upgrade to existing Plus and Ultra customers, but they won't be inexpensive, particularly the STA-1000.

Ed, now that the new Ultras with the 1000W Sledge amplifiers have been released, could you offer a similar breakdown of their advantages and SPL comparison with the previous (BASH) models? I couldn't find SVS's analysis of these models on any other thread.

I really enjoyed the information you provided in this thread for the smaller models and, as I have been offered a 5% discount for the PC13-Ultra BASH, I would be interested in finding out whether it is worth to wait (and pay more) for a PC13 Sledge.

This thread is a bit old but I felt it was the right place to post my question since it deals with precisely the same subject
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