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Shoot air show at 24P or 60I that is the question?

post #1 of 35
7/16/10 at 5:05am
Thread Starter 
I am torn between the two formats for documenting the Duluth Air show this weekend.
Shooting at 24P will allow for higher quality individual frames which I like but I suspect the fast moving planes will look a whole lot better at 60I.

Opinions?
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post #2 of 35
7/16/10 at 6:28am
I'd shoot at 60i, Frank. I think you're right - it should look smoother.

3D can't do 5:5 pulldown, anyway, because it's limited to 60 fps per eye. At 24p you'll have judder and the motion will look choppier.
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post #3 of 35
7/16/10 at 6:47am
Movie photographers are highly trained to keep "moving" objects in the the same location in each frame by moving the camera at the same speed as the moving object. For example car case scenes keep the car in the center of the frame by having the camera mounted in a vehice driving alongside the car.
Therfore since you don't have 720p available you should use 1080i
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post #4 of 35
7/16/10 at 6:58am
Thread Starter 
Looks like it's going to be 60I with a wee bit of 24P thrown in for comparison purposes.

Here is the webpage of the show so you can see the kind of things I'll be attempting to shoot.
http://www.duluthairshow.com/2010/performers.htm
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post #5 of 35
7/16/10 at 7:17am
The link is broken, Frank.

And I like the idea of taking comparison shots. Looking forward to it.
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post #6 of 35
7/16/10 at 7:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

The link is broken, Frank.

And I like the idea of taking comparison shots. Looking forward to it.

http://www.duluthairshow.com/2010/performers.html

I hope this link works...
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post #7 of 35
7/16/10 at 7:34am
That link works.

If you have the chance, why don't you shoot a shot or two at 30p. If your Canon is like mine, it has a 30p mode, too. I'd be curious to see how that mode looks in 3D. Since it divides evenly into 60 and 120, there shouldn't be any judder issues. I'm curious how the resolution compares. (I'm not sure how Canon implements its 30p mode.)
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post #8 of 35
7/16/10 at 7:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

That link works.

If you have the chance, why don't you shoot a shot or two at 30p. If your Canon is like mine, it has a 30p mode, too. I'd be curious to see how that mode looks in 3D. Since it divides evenly into 60 and 120, there shouldn't be any judder issues. I'm curious how the resolution compares. (I'm not sure how Canon implements its 30p mode.)

Unfortunately the Canon does not capture at 30P.
It just deinterlaces internally. I've tried it and was not impressed.
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post #9 of 35
7/17/10 at 7:19pm
Thread Starter 
Sorry Joe but I didn't have the chance to try 24P mode. I shot all 171 clips at 60I.
I have started uploading the first one that I converted to 3D. It's of a harrier jet taking off.
Will post links soon.
I like what I see so far.
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post #10 of 35
7/17/10 at 8:06pm
Thread Starter 
Harrier jet taking off:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7350380/62.m2ts

More tomorrow.....
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post #11 of 35
7/17/10 at 8:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Harrier jet taking off:

Glad I don't have to listen to it. Very, very loud.
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post #12 of 35
7/18/10 at 6:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Glad I don't have to listen to it. Very, very loud.

The sound of the harrier paled in comparison to the sound of the loudspeaker in front of us.
341 clips is going to take quite a bit of editing on my part.
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post #13 of 35
7/18/10 at 7:12pm
IMO, this is the best clip to date, Frank.The conditions were just right - no ghosting, perfect convergence. Really nice.
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post #14 of 35
7/18/10 at 7:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

IMO, this is the best clip to date, Frank.The conditions were just right - no ghosting, perfect convergence. Really nice.

Thanks, Joe.
I like it too.
I'm uploading more harrier video which I like but it's taking a long long time to upload.

It's quite a struggle to edit all the video of the Air Force Thunderbirds but I am currently rendering it to 3D and it'll take all night to finish it. Can't wait to view it tomorrow.
I shot everything with a shutter speed of 1/2000th of a second at 60I.
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post #15 of 35
7/19/10 at 5:04am
Thread Starter 
Here is the harrier coming in for a landing.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7350380/61.m2ts
Even though I had a press pass and got prime position there were many people interfering with my shots.
I just reviewed some of the Thunderbird footage and a lot of it looks awesome and some of it is unusable because of focus differences between the two cameras.

oops, gotta go. There's a large bear in my backyard.....
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post #16 of 35
7/19/10 at 6:49am
Ditto to Joe's comments on the new 3D air show clips...both are outstanding!

Those damned Harriers are amazing!

@Joe Clark: Joe do you have to rename Frank's m2ts files to ts to play on your Sammy plasma? My PN50C7000 does not like m2ts file extensions...been trying to put Frank's clips on a thumb drive for ease of playback rather than burning the files to DVD and playing through my PS3.
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post #17 of 35
7/19/10 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD_99 View Post

Ditto to Joe's comments on the new 3D air show clips...both are outstanding!

Those damned Harriers are amazing!

@Joe Clark: Joe do you have to rename Frank's m2ts files to ts to play on your Sammy plasma? My PN50C7000 does not like m2ts file extensions...been trying to put Frank's clips on a thumb drive for ease of playback rather than burning the files to DVD and playing through my PS3.

I'm not sure I can help much. I play Frank's clips directly from the computer. I have my home theater PCs hooked up, along with my Dish satellite receivers, to an Octava 4x4 matrix HDMI switcher. It can send any of 4 inputs to any or all 4 displays in my house. You might try tsMuxer to convert the m2ts files to something the Samsung can play from a flash drive (I think it can play ts files, but I'm not sure). There are also numerous converters online that will convert MTS and m2ts files to AVI.
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post #18 of 35
7/19/10 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
Could we all have some kind of consensus as to what would be the best format for these videos?
What would be the most universal one to use?
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post #19 of 35
7/19/10 at 10:32am
It doesn't matter to me. I can play just about anything. That said, MTS or m2ts seem like the best candidates. The Samsungs can play MTS natively, I think, from a flash drive. Transport stream files should be the best cross platform file types.
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post #20 of 35
7/19/10 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Could we all have some kind of consensus as to what would be the best format for these videos?
What would be the most universal one to use?

I just answered my own question...I simply renamed Frank's m2ts files to ts and they play fine off of my dedicated 3D content thumb drive. So I vote for continued use of m2ts since it takes what maybe a nanosecond for me to manually change from m2ts to ts on my laptop.

I doubt getting a consensus will be difficult since apparently there are only 5 of us who own these displays!
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post #21 of 35
7/19/10 at 11:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD_99 View Post

I just answered my own question...I simply renamed Frank's m2ts files to ts and they play fine off of my dedicated 3D content thumb drive. So I vote for continued use of m2ts since it takes what maybe a nanosecond for me to manually change from m2ts to ts on my laptop.

I doubt getting a consensus will be difficult since apparently there are only 5 of us who own these displays!

Are you playing these directly from your 3DTV thumbdrive? It's a Samsung, right?
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post #22 of 35
7/19/10 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Are you playing these directly from your 3DTV thumbdrive? It's a Samsung, right?

Yes mine is a Samsung PN50C7000 plasma and I am playing directly from the thumb drive ...one of the nice things about the newer Samsung models is they have a couple of USB ports on the back of the set. It's kind of a PITA to reach behind the set to plug the thumb drive in but that's nitpicking...it's a great feature!
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post #23 of 35
7/19/10 at 11:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD_99 View Post

Yes mine is a Samsung PN50C7000 plasma and I am playing directly from the thumb drive ...one of the nice things about the newer Samsung models is they have a couple of USB ports on the back of the set. It's kind of a PITA to reach behind the set to plug the thumb drive in but that's nitpicking...it's a great feature!

I'm jealous. I wish my Panasonic could do that.
I've discovered that the ONLY THING I like about the panasonic is the image quality and THAT'S IT!
Oh, and I hate the glasses too.....
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post #24 of 35
7/19/10 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD_99 View Post

Yes mine is a Samsung PN50C7000 plasma and I am playing directly from the thumb drive ...one of the nice things about the newer Samsung models is they have a couple of USB ports on the back of the set. It's kind of a PITA to reach behind the set to plug the thumb drive in but that's nitpicking...it's a great feature!

You could always add a short USB extension cable, to make it more convenient. Mine is very easy to reach, so no need for me to do that, but it's an easy solution if it's a hassle to get to.
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post #25 of 35
7/19/10 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

I'm jealous. I wish my Panasonic could do that.
I've discovered that the ONLY THING I like about the panasonic is the image quality and THAT'S IT!
Oh, and I hate the glasses too.....

Yes, I noticed an edge in the Panasonic black level and dark scene contrast, but in every other way I preferred the Samsung. And I can wear the glasses for hours on end without any discomfort. I'm also enjoying the 2D > 3D conversion feature a whole lot more than I ever thought I would when I first saw it. For some types of programming, it works really well. No chance you'll confuse it with real 3D, but who cares. Until there's a lot more 3D content, it's remarkably satisfying.
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post #26 of 35
7/19/10 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

You could always add a short USB extension cable, to make it more convenient. Mine is very easy to reach, so no need for me to do that, but it's an easy solution if it's a hassle to get to.

Yes indeedy I should have thought of that myself...we just retired a USB extender cable at work when we upgraded our PC monitor to a model having USB ports on the side of the monitor. I'll ask my boss is he is willing to ahem "bequeath" it to me!
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post #27 of 35
7/19/10 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

I'm jealous. I wish my Panasonic could do that.

Well we're all jealous of your 3D camera rig and your Panny 2D and 3D PQ....your backyard bears ummm not so much!
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post #28 of 35
7/19/10 at 3:02pm
Thread Starter 
It was recently called to my attention that my stereo 3D rig and I am in this music video.
For what it's worth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKQzqrxGZyo
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post #29 of 35
7/20/10 at 5:37am
Thread Starter 
After looking at lots of my 3D video I have formed some tentative opinions on formats.
I prefer 60I in every case to 24P.
The slow frame rate of 24P seems to require a resolution killing Gaussian motion blur in order make the low frame rate less noticeable.
Everything I shot at a high shutter speed at 24P is virtually unwatchable but as I slow the shutter speed down thus increasing the motion blur it becomes more watchable.
So it seems likely that 1/2 res side by side 3D shot at 60I at a high shutter speed has higher effective resolution then full res 1080P 3D at 24 frames per second.
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post #30 of 35
7/20/10 at 7:52am
That's interesting, Frank.

I know you're busy converting clips, but if you get a chance, could you do me a favor? Could you apply slow motion (say, 1/3 speed) to about 5 seconds of one of these clips in Vegas. I'm interested in seeing how interlaced slo mo footage looks in your software. The first 5 seconds of clip 71 should be revealing.
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