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Motion judder cancelation (c7000) vs judder cancelation (other tv here)

post #1 of 22
7/18/10 at 9:45pm
Thread Starter 
All,

I am new here and looked around some for this answer and did not find it. I did find some great info on the posts.

I just got a C7000 Samsung. The motion judder cancelation is great for images that are mostly stationary. It adds some pop to the image. However, when things get moving around, like a action scene when someone is running or heads are moving around a bunch, the algorithm total hoses up the pixels around the movement. Thus halos and trails are created.

So the question is, does Samsung or others have better Judder Cancellation processing that keeps the artifacts to a minimum? Do any of the TVs improve this? I could not imagine spending 5k on a TV and it looking the same with the motion judder cancelation.

BB
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post #2 of 22
7/19/10 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BikeisDusty View Post

All,

I am new here and looked around some for this answer and did not find it. I did find some great info on the posts.

I just got a C7000 Samsung. The motion judder cancelation is great for images that are mostly stationary. It adds some pop to the image. However, when things get moving around, like a action scene when someone is running or heads are moving around a bunch, the algorithm total hoses up the pixels around the movement. Thus halos and trails are created.

So the question is, does Samsung or others have better Judder Cancellation processing that keeps the artifacts to a minimum? Do any of the TVs improve this? I could not imagine spending 5k on a TV and it looking the same with the motion judder cancelation.

BB

You do not want dejudder processing. Unlike LCDs, plasmas derive little benefit from frame interpolation schemes (there may be some exceptions when dealing with 24 fps material, but the current implementation on Samsung's 2010 plasmas is lacking... it doesn't offer customizable dejudder/deblur).

Samsung goofed. MJC is enabled by default on the C7000 and C8000 plasmas in early firmware revs. Unfortunately, the menu option to turn it off is hidden on the C7000.

The easiest methods to turn off MJC are...

1) Upgrading to newer firmware which defaults the (hidden) MJC setting to off

or

2) Toggle the GAME mode setting (in the GENERAL section of the onscreen menu) from off-->on-->off. This indirectly and permanently disables the MJC.
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post #3 of 22
7/19/10 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by koffas View Post

You do not want dejudder processing.

That's a little presumptuous. I like the MJC control set on, myself.
Quote:


... the current implementation on Samsung's 2010 plasmas is lacking... it doesn't offer customizable dejudder/deblur)

The MJC control on my c8000 plasma has 3 settings: Off, Normal, and Smooth. Why is that not "customizable dejudder"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BikeisDusty View Post

does Samsung or others have better Judder Cancellation processing

So far as I know for Samsung plasmas, the version you've seen with the pixelization artifacts is as good as it gets. Maybe some LED sets do this better.
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post #4 of 22
7/19/10 at 12:34pm
The Panasonic G20s and up all have "blur reduction" as well (on/off only) supposed to be pretty good, but then again Plasmas don't require frame interpolation as much as an LCD
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post #5 of 22
7/19/10 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

That's a little presumptuous. I like the MJC control set on, myself.

The MJC control on my c8000 plasma has 3 settings: Off, Normal, and Smooth. Why is that not "customizable dejudder"?

So far as I know for Samsung plasmas, the version you've seen with the pixelization artifacts is as good as it gets. Maybe some LED sets do this better.

The statement about MJC was meant in the context of the OP's issue... scenes that are fast moving /complex or involve facial movement.

I think MJC works well for nature documentaries and animation. But whenever frame interpolation algorithms are applied to scenes with people, things get weird. Of course this is all subjective.

Previous Samsung models allowed independent control of (de)blur and (de)judder (they had a sliding 0-10 scale). You only get two presets on the 2010 plasmas: standard and smooth. The idea is to find a setting that smoothes the blur without inducing the SOE (judder).

The AMP analogue on Samung's LCDs somehow seems to work better. I don't have enough experience with other manufacturers' algorithms to offer an opinion there.
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post #6 of 22
7/19/10 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by koffas View Post

I think MJC works well for nature documentaries and animation. But whenever frame interpolation algorithms are applied to scenes with people, things get weird. Of course this is all subjective.

Sorry, I should have said "Standard" for the MJC setting, not "Normal".

I've just spent 45 minutes watching "How to Murder Your Wife" on DirectTV's MGMHD channel, varying the MJC setting. Tentatively, I like the Standard setting best. I agree that people moving quickly look strange, with a sort of refractive wake around them, but the jerkiness you get with those movements when MJC is Off is worse, I find. I never liked this stop-action effect in films.
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post #7 of 22
7/19/10 at 4:39pm
So it's MJC that creates these artifacts? geez, I'd sure like to be able to get rid of em.
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post #8 of 22
7/19/10 at 4:58pm
i don't understand. i thought plasma was blur free. my lg pj350, looks pretty good. im not seeing any blur. but i'am seeing artifacts, in 1080i. it's not alot but i notice it when its there. one of the reasons i want to calibrate my pj350, is to see if the service menu has options to correct this. as it stands its a great tv. calibrating, a $500.00 tv, is nuts to some members. but $500.00 is half a grand. thats alot for a 1' inch thick tv! not much plastic here lol. i can't wait tell november! thats wheni plan on calibrating my unit. i also will take pictures of the event! i can't wait.
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post #9 of 22
7/19/10 at 5:53pm
Does the latest c7000 software update give you the same MJC menus as the C8000's have?
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post #10 of 22
7/19/10 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

Does the latest c7000 software update give you the same MJC menus as the C8000's have?

Not that I can see. Although there have been many ways to be able to control it. Firmware trick. Apps trick. Game mode on off on then off trick as well
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post #11 of 22
7/19/10 at 6:13pm
Me I don't mind the effect, but the wife hates it. Would like to be able to go back and forth. It would suck if they took away the option via a software update to do this in the service menu, without adding it to the user menu.
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post #12 of 22
7/19/10 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by koffas View Post


2) Toggle the GAME mode setting (in the GENERAL section of the onscreen menu) from off-->on-->off. This indirectly and permanently disables the MJC.

If you do this MJC will NEVER work again???
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post #13 of 22
7/19/10 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTonik View Post


If you do this MJC will NEVER work again???

I'm sure an update or something would fix it. Idk why someone would want it on anyway. Sets look amazing without it
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post #14 of 22
7/20/10 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

I'm sure an update or something would fix it. Idk why someone would want it on anyway. Sets look amazing without it

It looks better with it on though.
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post #15 of 22
7/20/10 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfocussvt View Post


It looks better with it on though.

Sometimes lol. Hate when it makes artifacts.
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post #16 of 22
7/20/10 at 10:01am
I have a Sony xbr6 LCD and the PN63C8000. There's much less artifacts on the Sony using frame interpolation, but the effect of the frame interpolation is greater on the Samsung. I wish the Standard setting on the Samsung was less powerful to decrease artifacts. I too hate when I see artifacts. I can hardly tell the difference between the Standard and Smooth settings on the Samsung.
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post #17 of 22
7/20/10 at 1:57pm
Thread Starter 
I am surprised that this is the best that the TVs can do with this type of processing. The artifacting is so bad with action shots that I do not think the option should be offered on a TV with a MSRP of upwards of 2k. That is really poor engineering and release management. Samsung should feel shame for this features quality.

I will say, I think that with the MJC on, some images look far better. I agree with Koffas on the use of the MJC. I have noticed on some standard def broadcasts, the MJC really improves picture quality, that is if the image is not moving to much. Faces really pop and are much clearer. However, flip a channel to high action, the MJC has to be turned off or you feel like hurling.

As for those that mention the no blurring or no artifacting on their plasmas, when the Samsung MJC is off, the picture is supper smooth.

Thanks for the comments.
BB
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post #18 of 22
8/31/10 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Although there have been many ways to be able to control it. Firmware trick. Apps trick.

Can you tell some url about that tricks?
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post #19 of 22
8/31/10 at 8:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Single View Post


Can you tell some url about that tricks?

URL? just hit game mode on/off/on/off and it's fixed.
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post #20 of 22
9/1/10 at 1:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

URL? just hit game mode on/off/on/off and it's fixed.


I am talking about this:
"...ways to be able to control it. Firmware trick. Apps trick."
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post #21 of 22
9/1/10 at 5:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Single View Post


I am talking about this:
"...ways to be able to control it. Firmware trick. Apps trick."

I just told you a easy way to fix it....
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post #22 of 22
9/1/10 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BikeisDusty View Post

I just got a C7000 Samsung. The motion judder cancelation is great for images that are mostly stationary. It adds some pop to the image. However, when things get moving around, like a action scene when someone is running or heads are moving around a bunch, the algorithm total hoses up the pixels around the movement. Thus halos and trails are created.

I can't help but to be amazed by this apparent oxymoron. Would mighty samsung make such a mistake or is the source frequency ie hz or deinterlacing set wrongly, hence different people has different conclusion?
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