What is your take on Cinavia copy protection - Page 2

Probably because you're using a player that doesn't care about Cinavia. Every new Blu-ray player must detect the Cinavia watermark, and stop playing the file when it does.

The studios would obviously also like to get the politicians to pass legislation that makes it mandatory for mediaplayers to support Cinavia as well. At first just for new players that hits the market, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're also aiming for a law that demands that new firmwares for old players also has to support Cinavia (after a certain grace period).

As long as there are players around that ignores Cinavia, Cinavia is a non-issue, and the industry knows this. If Cinavia actually works; if it turns out to be impossible to remove the watermark without also destroying the soundtrack, then I can guarantee that the industry will do absolutely everything in its power to make sure that every player has to support it.

Guess this means back to htpc in a few years

I don't think you understand how Cinavia works. Cinavia is designed to allow copying, converting, remuxing, downsampling, noise-adding, and all sorts of things. If you point an old vhs video camera at your TV and record the movie (even if it's in a very noisy room), then copy this movie to DVD, then Cinavia will still be intact. The point is that it's the PLAYER that detects the Cinavia watermark, and if finds the watermark on a movie that's not on an accepted medium (e.g. physical read-only Blu-ray disc), it'll stop playback.

So this is not about being able to copy something that's protected by Cinavia, it's about removing Cinavia from the copy.

So far, the only known methods for removing the watermark will also destroy the audio track in the movie, and nobody knows for sure if it's even possible to remove it without affecting the audio quality.

But why would I burn my BD ISOs to a disc? If I want to use the disc it would be quicker to find my original and put that in the player than for me to spend the time burning it.

Oh. In that case, your "if it can be read, it can be copied"-comment doesn't make sense to me at all.

Nevermind. Merry Christmas.

The easiest way would probably be removing the detecting from the player.
Media players would be useless if they implement this detection so let's hope that those units will be left alone in the future.
Removing audio watermark without reencoding will be hard.

Cinavia is on the new movie Takers as well. It's a Screen Gem title. Not Sony. That's not a good sign. It doesn't appear to be as intrusive as the Sony titles though. You can actually watch 20 - 25 minutes of movie before seeing the notification. I stop viewing when the code kicks in wait about 20 mins and start where i stopped and it will play for another 20 minutes without the code kicking in again. On the Sony titles this doen't seem to work that way. They are practically unwatchable unless you view at 1.5 speed. But as far as the large viewing intervals forget it. I know this is to discourage piracy but what about the people who bought the movie, but want a backup or prefer to view in a networked environment. It's a shame.

Biggz

Hi Biggz,
Out of curiosity, what device are you playing it on?

This is what bothers me:
The "Watermark" is something audible that is added to the sound-track. So the studios are willing to adulterate the sound for the sake of copy-protection.

I refuse to buy any disk with the audio corrupted by Cinavia.

The watermark is invisible within the audio file. It just triggers the protection scheme in the player if it has it.

Invisible? But I thought that it is "copied" over, even if you copy with a VHS recorder off of the screen? That can't be invisible (or should I say, inaudible).

If it is only data in the audio stream, then it can be removed.

It's invisible to your ears...not the players. It is invisible or at least not removable by ripping software but give them time.

MarkHotchkiss
I've been using a PS3 for 2 years. I have my entire house networked using a PS3 in my office and family room as the Media client. I feel the same way as you not wanting to buy a Blu Ray from Sony. In fact I resently purchased a WDTV Live to put in my wife's bedroom. I hope it will allow me to view the movies uninterrupted. Most of my HD is on 5TB of hard disk space. All copied from my personal collection of course.

this doesn't do anything to cinavia. it will still trigger the protection and the audio will be muted.

If Dune support cinavia for disc playback, I wouldn't be happy, but I could live with it (i dont reburn my discs). If they enable it for file playback then I will sell it and go back to a htpc ( i remux my blurays, and if cinavia affected them I couldnt cope with that).

It isn't data...

The only way to remove it from the audio stream is to re-encode the audio from the master.. since it is part of the audio signal after it is applied, it is very robust, and will indeed transfer over playback in a theater and subsequent recording via a camcorder.

Without getting into a debate over it degrading the audio integrity, I've been privy to it's use on several films I've mixed...

At this point, with the current "watermark," I can say I am not hesitant when we are requested to use it on a film for theatrical release....

If you go to the cinema ofter, you've been listening to it for years.

Hi FilmMixer, It sounds like we are in the same business.


These two statements sound contradictory to me. If a camcorder can hear it, I'm sure I can. My understanding is that it is not like the "digital" watermarks that permeate digital media, as when you might use the LSB of each 24-bit audio sample to encode a signature (which would indeed be inaudible). It is an audible sequence that survives re-recording.

I realize that it can be "camouflaged" within the soundtrack, but the fact is that the soundtrack is being adulterated for the sake of profit.

I understand the financial aspect, but I have a stronger understanding for the artistic aspect. Many directors are very protective of there soundtracks, and would liken Cinavia to stamping a copyright notice on a Rembrandt.

If Cinavia support is ever implemented on the Dune, I doubt anyone will want to buy it. Not a lot of use for a media player that can't play the media you want it to.

Mark.. forgive me for my ignorance, but I don't know who you are, or how you are connected to the sound post production community... you'll have to enlighten me.

I think you are making a big assumption about what most directors would liken this too... none of the film makers I've worked with, where I've applied the Cinavia process to our mixes, have been able to hear it, nor have complained about it.

Most directors come to work with me because I am protective, passionate and capable of forging their artistic visions through sound..

Being careful, and without discussing my speculations about exactly how it works, there is a simple reason why it wouldn't be audible to anyone who didn't know how and what to listen for.... that is one of the main reasons that they have been successful in making this a desirable no home use watermark.

As I said, neither myself, or any of the film makers I have worked with, have felt it contrary to the artistic integrity of the sound, or detrimental to the track..

You assume that because it is robust, it must be audible to the point of degradation.. however, having a good idea of how it is being achieved (and most of that comes from intense study of both watermarked and clean versions of the same sound tracks) I am no longer up in arms as I first was when I was told what we were going to have to this...

Having heard / done it now a handful of time, I find it much less obtrusive than the ugly visual serial # marks on film prints... much less so, in fact.

While I'm not at liberty to discuss the films I know it to be on, as I said, I'm sure everyone here has been subjected to it if they've been to the theaters more than 2 or 3 times in the last 6 months..

It's called show business, not show art... as such, financial concerns, in this day and age, usually guide most decisions from a distributors standpoint...

Like it or not, it's the nature of the beast..

(For all.. don't take my comments on this subject as an endorsement of the process... I'm trying to discuss this in an objective manner..

I will say that as one who works hard to earn a living, and understanding how much it really costs to make films, I am sympathetic in studios attempts to protect their investments... I find none of the arguments about why it is ok to not pay for films that a studio invested money in to be compelling...

If you think studios charge too much for a film at the theater, don't go.

If you think studios charge too much, or puts their restriction on what they deem to be its fair use, for a Blu Ray, or DVD, or etc... don't buy it.

Studios and networks may be greedy... that's their right.

Vote with your pocket book... but once again, it's just my .02.)

If you think studios charge too much for a film at the theater, don't go.

If you think studios charge too much, or puts their restriction on what they deem to be its fair use, for a Blu Ray, or DVD, or etc... don't buy it.

Studios and networks may be greedy... that's their right.

Vote with your pocket book... but once again, it's just my .02.)[/quote]

I agree with most of those statements. I'll also add that after I purchase the disc, I do what I want with the content on it. That's my right (in my opinion), not according to the law, but I do it anyway.

Cinavia will eventually be defeated. China will never pay full price for hollywood content. I'm sure the guys from DVD Fab over in Beijing are working overtime on it like they did with defeating BD+. Their business depends on it.

Cinavia sounds similar to the portable people meter, at least at a conceptual level.

So I naively ask "how hard is it to filter out something that's inaudible?" Too easy, I'd guess. Which means Cinavia wouldn't inaudible in the strictest sense, probably more "psychoacousticly masked" rather than "inaudible".

I keep hoping that these shovelers of EntertainmentProduct will soon create DRM so drastic that no one will be able to watch it.

Hi FilmMixer,

I agree with everything you say, except maybe for the appropriateness of a technology like Cinavia.

I don't work in post-production, I work in principal photography. As such, I am very protective of the studio's right to a profit. I am dead set against illegal copying, and I pay for every movie I see or buy. After all, it is what pays my salary.

I go to the theater often. I must have heard / not heard Cinavia a few times, but I must admit that I don't know what it would sound / not sound like. But that really isn't the point.

It's true that the artistic and financial aspects of the business have always conflicted, but it seems to me that the artistic perspective has been especially diminished over the past 10 - 15 years. I suspect that you are working with people who accept Cinavia as appropriate. I can't say whether they are the majority or minority, but let me assure you there are many in this business who feel that it crosses a line. I feel that it crosses two lines.

The first line, as I mentioned, is the artistic one. Simply put, it is the business people dictating what MUST be on the soundtrack. Some accept it, some won't. Most of the people I know on the artistic side chafe at the idea.

The second line is a legal one, and it affects me as a consumer. That is the doctrine of fair use. For the industry that I am a part of and have always supported to take away from me a right that has been granted to me by the US supreme court is just plain wrong. Are we being overzealous in fighting piracy? Or are we simply willing to ignore the law to increase profit. Either way, fighting piracy or profit, it should defer to the legal rights of the consumer.

My 2 cents (plus meal-penalty, overtime and hazard pay).

According to my country's laws we can make copies for personal use to watch on streamers and so on.
But studios are trying to prevent us from doing so with multiple protections and also shoving useless 30 min commercials including "You would not steel a car..."-trailers... No I wouldn't, that's why I bought the disc!
All of this is just a slap in the face for those who buys the product while piracy copies is actually delivering a backup copy that works without problem.
We also by law have to pay extra tax (besides normal 25% tax) on CD/DVD/VHS/MP3-players and soon HDD/SDD-drives to an umbrella collecting society. But we still can't make copies because of the protection... this is just double standard if you ask me.