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2011 Panasonic Plasma [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 94

post #2791 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post
Yep - that's what I said...
David
I have Already asked you in your V20 review, but im still confused as you can see on my previous post to the italian guy. 0,009 cd/m² (your measure) and DDAY 0,006 cd/m² but in ansi. This mean that some european tvs have lower blacks than americans tvs, and means too that the lower blacks could be sometimes in the ansi mode or in a 0 IRE mode? I dont no what meter the DDAY use , but if they use a meter like minolta or KLEIN, we can conclude that could be diferences of the black performance between panasonic models?
post #2792 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by nunofcp View Post
David
I have Already asked you in your V20 review, but im still confused as you can see on my previous post to the italian guy. 0,009 cd/m² (your measure) and DDAY 0,006 cd/m² but in ansi. This mean that some european tvs have lower blacks than americans tvs, and means too that the lower blacks could be sometimes in the ansi mode or in a 0 IRE mode? I dont no what meter the DDAY use , but if they use a meter like minolta or KLEIN, we can conclude that could be diferences of the black performance between panasonic models?
Good question. Unfortunately, back then, we weren't performing ANSI measurements at HDTVTest so I can't give you any real input there.
post #2793 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post
Good question. Unfortunately, back then, we weren't performing ANSI measurements at HDTVTest so I can't give you any real input there.
Could you recall whether the source measured was 50, 24 or 60Hz?
post #2794 of 3327
I do all calibration and measurements with 24p input.
post #2795 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post
I do all calibration and measurements with 24p input.
Thanks.

That will account for lower readings if compared with measurements taken with 60Hz sources as evidenced here.
post #2796 of 3327
GT30 is out!
post #2797 of 3327
They have the first calibrated measurement up for the GT30 using the Klein meter over at HDJ. It's very very good!
post #2798 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
They have the first calibrated measurement up for the GT30 using the Klein meter over at HDJ. It's very very good!
Wow, it really did measure .004 mll

This gives me a lot of confidence in that article (that also said rising/floating blacks are gone) now. It all seems to be matching up to everything that the HDGuru article said!
post #2799 of 3327
Very nice!
post #2800 of 3327
The VT30 should be a bit better with the filter they are using. I also read that they are using an LSI chip for video processing so hopefully the PQ is grain free.
post #2801 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoshredder27 View Post
GT30 is out!
Yup - i started an Official Panasonic GT30 Series Discussion Thread this morning:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1325398

I just realized that i've only started about a dozen threads since i joined AVS
post #2802 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobl3 View Post
Wow, it really did measure .004 mll

This gives me a lot of confidence in that article (that also said rising/floating blacks are gone) now. It all seems to be matching up to everything that the HDGuru article said!
Ya, but....

The same person also measured the GT25 at .003fL and the ST30 at .006fL. D-Nice has consistently measured .005fL on the GT25 and he got .008fL on the ST30. So more than likely the true mll of the GT30 will probably end up being .005-.006fL depending on panel variance (same as last years GT25). If it doesn't rise that's awesome, but if it does, well...
post #2803 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Ya, but....

The same person also measured the GT25 at .003fL and the ST30 at .006fL. D-Nice has consistently measured .005fL on the GT25 and he got .008fL on the ST30. So more than likely the true mll of the GT30 will probably end up being .005-.006fL depending on panel variance (same as last years GT25). If it doesn't rise that's awesome, but if it does, well...
As long as it hits .005 mll, it fits into the target of what HDGuru said.
post #2804 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
Then you really don't know much about plasmas. Better yet your information you think you know is dated at best.

The 2011 Panasonics have the same black level on a 0% stimuli pattern and when measuring black on an AnSI pattern. You are more than welcome to test it for yourself. Just make sure you have the right methodology when doing it.
I think the thing they are confusing is the ANSI contrast ratio vs. On off contrast ratio (which will be different) , with the measurement of black for each of them.
post #2805 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by nunofcp View Post
David
I have Already asked you in your V20 review, but im still confused as you can see on my previous post to the italian guy. 0,009 cd/m² (your measure) and DDAY 0,006 cd/m² but in ansi. This mean that some european tvs have lower blacks than americans tvs, and means too that the lower blacks could be sometimes in the ansi mode or in a 0 IRE mode? I dont no what meter the DDAY use , but if they use a meter like minolta or KLEIN, we can conclude that could be diferences of the black performance between panasonic models?
I know those sites and what I think is going on here is that they haven't measured anything but rather just copy-pasted the results from HDTV Test. This should be clear by the fact that the 0,006cd/m2 measurement was originally posted in the TX-50VT20B HDTV Test review caused by the K-10 being badly calibrated. The other measurement is from the same review when the K-10 was properly calibrated. So a simple copy-paste if you ask me.
post #2806 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
The 2011 Panasonics have the same black level on a 0% stimuli pattern and when measuring black on an AnSI pattern. You are more than welcome to test it for yourself. Just make sure you have the right methodology when doing it.
And it should be noted, that Martha Stewart (and all of you) would consider this ability "a good thing".
post #2807 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
I think the thing they are confusing is the ANSI contrast ratio vs. On off contrast ratio (which will be different) , with the measurement of black for each of them.
That's what I said there should be a difference caused by more current running through the panel and thus a higher idle state of the turned off (black) pixels. More current (more bright contect) means more current running through the panel thus increasing also increasing the current (idle state of the turned off (black) pixels thus higher black levels with for example an ANSI patern. Less current (Full 0 IRE screen) means less current running through the panel thus leaving the pixels in absolute MLL so the black levels should be lower than with bright content.

Technically Plasma's still pretty much work the same as they did from the first generation. The only thing that has changed is gas composition, the exclusion of Mecury and thus power requirements (voltage needed for the gas to turn into a plasma).

Like I've said: I have no doubt D-Nice, David Mackenzie and other expert calibrators measure these panels (Kuro 9G and 2011 Panasonics) correctly but it isn't them or their measurement equipment at fault but rather the filter used by Pioneer and Panasonic at fault.
post #2808 of 3327
Quote:
Like I've said: I have no doubt D-Nice, David Mackenzie and other expert calibrators measure these panels (Kuro 9G and 2011 Panasonics) correctly but it isn't them or their measurement equipment at fault but rather the filter used by Pioneer and Panasonic at fault.
Can you explain your theory? What makes you think that a meter being placed directly against the screen at 0 degrees will be confused by the screen filter?
post #2809 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post
That's what I said there should be a difference caused by more current running through the panel and thus a higher idle state of the turned off (black) pixels. More current (more bright contect) means more current running through the panel thus increasing also increasing the current (idle state of the turned off (black) pixels thus higher black levels with for example an ANSI patern. Less current (Full 0 IRE screen) means less current running through the panel thus leaving the pixels in absolute MLL so the black levels should be lower than with bright content.

Technically Plasma's still pretty much work the same as they did from the first generation. The only thing that has changed is gas composition, the exclusion of Mecury and thus power requirements (voltage needed for the gas to turn into a plasma).

Like I've said: I have no doubt D-Nice, David Mackenzie and other expert calibrators measure these panels (Kuro 9G and 2011 Panasonics) correctly but it isn't them or their measurement equipment at fault but rather the filter used by Pioneer and Panasonic at fault.
What about the filter for the Samsung- Real Black Filter? I thought that was darker than any of them, yet it wasn't getting on/off and ANSI as the same measurement.
post #2810 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post
can you explain your theory? What makes you think that a meter being placed directly against the screen at 0 degrees will be confused by the screen filter?
+1
post #2811 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post
Technically Plasma's still pretty much work the same as they did from the first generation. The only thing that has changed is gas composition, the exclusion of Mecury and thus power requirements (voltage needed for the gas to turn into a plasma).
Don't you think that's a bit of an over-generalization? The design of incandescent light bulb and the internal combustion engine hasn't changed at all fundamentally however the performance of the modern designs from the original is quite different.

Just my thoughts here. There's a lot of other practical examples.
post #2812 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post
I know those sites and what I think is going on here is that they haven't measured anything but rather just copy-pasted the results from HDTV Test. This should be clear by the fact that the 0,006cd/m2 measurement was originally posted in the TX-50VT20B HDTV Test review caused by the K-10 being badly calibrated. The other measurement is from the same review when the K-10 was properly calibrated. So a simple copy-paste if you ask me.
The V20 review date of the DDAY.It was 19 May 2010 and The VT20 review of the Hdtvtest was in 20 of May 2010.
post #2813 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

Can you explain your theory? What makes you think that a meter being placed directly against the screen at 0 degrees will be confused by the screen filter?

Can you explain why a Plasma TV has it's Plasma cells idling at the same level no matter the amount of current run through the panel if the filter is not at fault with your measurements?

Every other Plasma TV in history has a sustained difference in black level depending on onscreen content so why should that be any different with the Panasonic 2011 and Pioneer 9G models (both use the same filter). Just to make clear I'm not a professional calibrator and won't dare to question you on that. It's just I'm theorising from a technical perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nunofcp View Post

The V20 review date of the DDAY.It was 19 May 2010 and The VT20 review of the Hdtvtest was in 20 of May 2010.

You sure measurements weren't added later *cough* copy-pasted *cough*
post #2814 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post

Every other Plasma TV in history has a sustained difference in black level depending on onscreen content

I cant see even a slight difference in blacklevel depending on onscreen content on a GW10 (european G10).

The "idle voltage" (which dictates blacklevel) does not need to change with onscreen content and thus black level doesn't need to either.
post #2815 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post

Can you explain why a Plasma TV has it's Plasma cells idling at the same level no matter the amount of current run through the panel if the filter is not at fault with your measurements?

Every other Plasma TV in history has a sustained difference in black level depending on onscreen content so why should that be any different with the Panasonic 2011 and Pioneer 9G models (both use the same filter). Just to make clear I'm not a professional calibrator and won't dare to question you on that. It's just I'm theorising from a technical perspective.



You sure measurements weren't added later *cough* copy-pasted *cough*

Yes im sure.
post #2816 of 3327
Quote:


Can you explain why a Plasma TV has it's Plasma cells idling at the same level no matter the amount of current run through the panel if the filter is not at fault with your measurements?

No, but I'm not a Panasonic engineer. I didn't design the drive mechanism. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean that it will necessarily be the same forever.

If your theory about the filter causing issues for meters was true, then surely we would also see errors with peak white measurements and R/G/B balancing. Yet peak white measures at 100 cd/m2 (or 130 cd/m2 in THX mode) just like with all other recent Panasonic displays, and Greyscale measurements can be confirmed by eye.
post #2817 of 3327
And how does the filter block more light from the display, when onscreen content is brighter elsewhere. This would need to be true, if black level measurements don't change regardless of on/off contrast or ansi contrast measurements even though according to your theory MLL does rise with the latter.
That makes no sense to me.
post #2818 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post

Can you explain why a Plasma TV has it's Plasma cells idling at the same level no matter the amount of current run through the panel if the filter is not at fault with your measurements?

The generation and emission of MLL occurs in a separate step in time to that of signal light emission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post

Every other Plasma TV in history has a sustained difference in black level depending on onscreen content so why should that be any different with the Panasonic 2011 and Pioneer 9G models (both use the same filter). Just to make clear I'm not a professional calibrator and won't dare to question you on that. It's just I'm theorising from a technical perspective.

Aside from poor measurement technique I suggest two possible reasons:

1 - PDP cells (subpixels) are not sealed from one another. Some light leakage can and does occur. Modern PDPs use encased cells with higher rib heights that almost eliminates this problem.

2 - At high APL there is a voltage drop due to impedence and some PDPs adjust the MLL up in order to compensate.
post #2819 of 3327
Quote:


1 - PDP cells (subpixels) are not sealed from one another. Some light leakage can and does occur. Modern PDPs use encased cells with higher rib heights that almost eliminates this problem.

This was clearly visible from going to the 2009 to 2010 mid-range NeoPDP displays. As an example, the "OPPO" logo (white text on black background from the menu screen of the BDP-83 BD player) would show glowing around it on the 2009 displays, but almost none in 2010.
post #2820 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeGuy View Post

The VT30 should be a bit better with the filter they are using. I also read that they are using an LSI chip for video processing so hopefully the PQ is grain free.

What is an LSI chip? So the GT30 doesnt have that? People dont seem to talk much about the new chips and what they can do other than mostly "is has a better chip this year with better processing, processing good". You'd think after however many years of that that the processing IS just good at this point :P .
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