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2011 Panasonic Plasma [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 2

post #31 of 3327
With technology there is never a better time. Improvements are going to be coming all the time. I guess if one does have a TV, waiting might be worthwhile as the Panny would definitely be a Kuro beater if some of the kinks/deficiencies are addressed. However, what does one do if there is no TV and waiting for one to two years is out of the question???
post #32 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandaroy View Post

With technology there is never a better time. Improvements are going to be coming all the time. I guess if one does have a TV, waiting might be worthwhile as the Panny would definitely be a Kuro beater if someone of the kinks/deficiencies are addressed. However, what does one do if there is no TV and waiting for one to two years is out of the question???

Well in that case if it was me, I would look at all available sets, weigh the pros and cons of each, then get the biggest screen size at the cheapest price. In other words if you can be happy with say a 50" Panny for 1k for the next few years and wait and see what comes up the line.
post #33 of 3327
Hi All,

After Pioneer had formally exited the market, Jim Catchside of Pioneer UK, when asked when the G9 Kuro's would be surpassed stated in 2010. This has not happened clearly but what it may mean is that he was probably aware of Panasonic's capabilities at the time having shared technologies, engineers & the two companies working closely with each other.

The statement that Jim made at the time was probably correct but some time down the line, Panasonic either could not implement as much of the Kuro tech in time or amended things in order to bring things to market.

My view still remains that IF they do apply Kuro tech it will be on a staggered basis with the top ranges getting all/most of it & it correspondingly decreasing down the ranges. With this in mind, whether it comes out in any meaningful way (2011 or 2012!), I feel the hyper expensive flagship models like the Z Series may then qualify as true Kuro beaters. The other ranges will be kind of like Ford's with a minimum amount of BMW parts within them - how much depends on the range.

With Black Levels that Panasonic feel satisfies probably the vast majority of their market, I wonder how bothered they really are about this & if they really are bothered about beating the Kuro as we all wish them to be - their new honey pot is 3D & I feel that is where they will focus on more than anything else. They could also just have bought the Kuro tech to stop it getting into the hands of competitors - we just do not know but I feel they will use what they can to readily integrate in to their products (or at least with the minimum of change) at minimum cost. These are just my feelings & views on things - yours may differ!

I pray Panny has noticed how sweet some other sets look aesthetically & finally in 2011 produce eye pleasing sets but once again, knowing Panny, I am not holding my breath!

Bazzy!
post #34 of 3327
From a business standpoint, it would make the most sense to implement the technology obtained by Pioneer slowly but surely over the next generations. The big push in the market is 3D right now. LCD technology is changing rapidly. Plasma panels will have to start advertising some new technology. You can't market increased contrast ratio figures and deeper black levels forever...consumers aren't that passive. Where do you go from an "infinite black" claim? Super infinite black? Super-Duper infinite black??
post #35 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by CedYou View Post

Why are we so focused on a unsubstantiated statement. I read post all the time saying "I'm waiting on the 2011, 2012 etc.. Panny/Kuro". I'll believe it when I see it.

Do you know who D-Nice is? He, unlike most of us here who shoot from the hip, actually has accurate insider info. He's not often wrong on this stuff, nor does he just guess like we do - so if he says something is/will be so, there's a reason.
post #36 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

Do you know who D-Nice is? He, unlike most of us here who shoot from the hip, actually has accurate insider info. He's not often wrong on this stuff, nor does he just guess like we do - so if he says something is/will be so, there's a reason.

AFAIK, the last thing he said about 14G (2011) models was that blacks would improve further, but they may or may not exceed 9G Kuro black levels. Nothing is set in stone yet.
post #37 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

Do you know who D-Nice is? He, unlike most of us here who shoot from the hip, actually has accurate insider info. He's not often wrong on this stuff, nor does he just guess like we do - so if he says something is/will be so, there's a reason.

Well in all fairness, he said that the larger sizes 58+ would triple in MLL as well. This hasn't happened (They've almost doubled, but not quite even doubled)
post #38 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

AFAIK, the last thing he said about 14G (2011) models was that blacks would improve further, but they may or may not exceed 9G Kuro black levels. Nothing is set in stone yet.

Sorry, I had my gens mixed up - for some reason was thinking that 13G = 2011 models. Whoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Well in all fairness, he said that the larger sizes 58+ would triple in MLL as well. This hasn't happened (They've almost doubled, but not quite even doubled)

I said "not often wrong", not "infallible"
post #39 of 3327
What hasn't happen? I calibrated a 65V10 a few weeks ago with 2200 hours on it. Guess what the MLL was.... 0.017fL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Well in all fairness, he said that the larger sizes 58+ would triple in MLL as well. This hasn't happened (They've almost doubled, but not quite even doubled)
post #40 of 3327
I have the same meter they do and I consistently measure 0.004fL on the VT series. Either EU models have different glass (next to zero chance) or something is fishy with that review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

This is interesting,
as I've heard D-Nice state that they would be better from his sources, but this was a few months ago, so things may have changed.

I know Robert from Value Electronics was of the opinion that the 2011 models would not be surpassing Pioneer in black level or grayscale.

The VT25 is an excellent set, but if Panasonic could eliminate the black level rise/floating black issue, then these sets would really be wonderful. Blacks under .004 ft/L is nice, but unless you're watching tv in a dark room, it's diminishing returns.

HDTV Test measured blacks a little darker even at .002 ft/L They also had one of the most accurate meters possible for testing idle luminance.
post #41 of 3327
Off topic:

Do we know who the competitors will be at the next VE Shootout?
post #42 of 3327
The list is not 100% but plasma will be of the 58" size range from Panasonic, Samsung and LG. LCDs will be of the 55" size range from Sony, Samsung, LG and Toshiba (may also include the Cell processor display).
post #43 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The list is not 100% but plasma will be of the 58" size range from Panasonic, Samsung and LG. LCDs will be of the 55" size range from Sony, Samsung, LG and Toshiba (may also include the Cell processor display).

Hi D-Nice!

Did you receive my mails to you?

Bazzy!
post #44 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi All,

After Pioneer had formally exited the market, Jim Catchside of Pioneer UK, when asked when the G9 Kuro's would be surpassed stated in 2010. This has not happened clearly but what it may mean is that he was probably aware of Panasonic's capabilities at the time having shared technologies, engineers & the two companies working closely with each other.

The statement that Jim made at the time was probably correct but some time down the line, Panasonic either could not implement as much of the Kuro tech in time or amended things in order to bring things to market.

My view still remains that IF they do apply Kuro tech it will be on a staggered basis with the top ranges getting all/most of it & it correspondingly decreasing down the ranges. With this in mind, whether it comes out in any meaningful way (2011 or 2012!), I feel the hyper expensive flagship models like the Z Series may then qualify as true Kuro beaters. The other ranges will be kind of like Ford's with a minimum amount of BMW parts within them - how much depends on the range.

With Black Levels that Panasonic feel satisfies probably the vast majority of their market, I wonder how bothered they really are about this & if they really are bothered about beating the Kuro as we all wish them to be - their new honey pot is 3D & I feel that is where they will focus on more than anything else. They could also just have bought the Kuro tech to stop it getting into the hands of competitors - we just do not know but I feel they will use what they can to readily integrate in to their products (or at least with the minimum of change) at minimum cost. These are just my feelings & views on things - yours may differ!

I pray Panny has noticed how sweet some other sets look aesthetically & finally in 2011 produce eye pleasing sets but once again, knowing Panny, I am not holding my breath!

Bazzy!

Black level rise could definitely be an issue with the 2010 models. Time will tell how drastic that might be (I hope if it MUCH slower than 2009 models). However a black level of 0.004 ftL is indeed a fantastic black level if it stayed that way.

My main beef with the vt25 is the 96 Hz false contouring problem that Panasonic is refusing to accept as a problem. It has plagued both the 2009 and 2010 sets. IMO, unless Panny cures such processing issues, it will be a very good tv, but will not be a Kuro beater, black levels notwithstanding.
post #45 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Im2sexy View Post

Well in that case if it was me, I would look at all available sets, weigh the pros and cons of each, then get the biggest screen size at the cheapest price. In other words if you can be happy with say a 50" Panny for 1k for the next few years and wait and see what comes up the line.

Since you are set on plasma (LCD has its own share of issues), there is only a few limited choices: Panny, Samsung and LG. All have their own issues. If you do not mind waiting, then get something for around 1k and live with he shortcomings. Then again, who is to say the next year's models will be worth $3k?
post #46 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

I pray Panny has noticed how sweet some other sets look aesthetically & finally in 2011 produce eye pleasing sets but once again, knowing Panny, I am not holding my breath!

Bazzy!

While Panasonic's official photos make it seem like the most hideous high end TV ever, the VT25 is actually very classy looking in person. The pictures do no justice.
post #47 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I have the same meter they do and I consistently measure 0.004fL on the VT series. Either EU models have different glass (next to zero chance) or something is fishy with that review.

Its something I tried getting my head around with my 50" V10.
I'm in a 50Hz territory, and 50Hz and 24p sources share the same level of idle luminance yet 60Hz sources have a higher luminance.
The last time I compared them, 50Hz was measuring 0.011 ftl and 60Hz was 0.013 ftl.

The explaination I was given over on AVForums from Robin78 was -

Quote:


Difference in brightness depending on frequency is a normal occurrence with gas discharge + phosphor lamps. There are two phenomena that are at work, first of all with a higher refresh rate the xeon gas in the plasma cells is being exited more times a second causing it to maintain a higher pre-charge level overall, secondly with a higher refresh rate the phosphors are exited more times a second, as their decay time does not change, it means it will the ratio between emitting light and dark changes. I all other variables (eg. precharge voltage) remain constant both things will make your plasma brighter with higher refresh rates. I guess that in US sets the voltage settings are trimmed for 60Hz while in Europe it´s optimized for 50Hz.

I think this is a good enough reason not to compare the different territories too closely. If there is a question mark about what refresh rate was used at the time of measuring then it cast a fair amount of doubt.
But then again, I just don't know half as much as I'd like to about any of this stuff.
post #48 of 3327
Honestly if you've just started looking now I would wait for the new sets. That's what I did last year and I'm glad I did, the price dropped enough for me to be able to afford a 54" instead of the 50" I had planned to get originally.
post #49 of 3327
In fact this is a silly discussion ......

Assuming that your screen is outputting 40 ftL at full white, than black at 0,02 ftL represents a factor 2000 = 66 dB.

That seems quite enough as the best camera's have a dynamic range of 65 - 70 dB, BUT their actual s/n ratio is less than 60 dB. Add to that the losses that you have in the editing gear and data transport and you may be glad when your Blu-ray is outputting 55 dB s/n ratio. That is a ratio of about 560 !!! Easy, easy to display with any flatscreen.

And don't forget you have to add the losses you encounter when putting that excellent Blu-ray disc in your player .......

All in all a s/n ratio of 500 (53 dB) is probably a very good result.


So get your screens calibrated professionally and make sure that black actually means "light off".
This probably may not work for LCD owners due to the limited technology, but remember: you can improve your "black vision" by making sure that you are not in a pitch dark room!


*******************************************

Some info:
"However, this is the S/N of the ADC and has nothing in common with the S/N of the camera. This is usually limited by the number of photons. In the case of the ADC, the dynamic range is usually specified. For example, a normal camera might have about 60-dB dynamic range and a S/N of 40 dB.

For a camera, the number of photons required to achieve saturation is the saturation capacity/QE. For a camera that requires 20,000 photons to reach saturation at a QE of 50% (0.5), the number of photons will be 40,000.

Since the noise is given as the SQRT (signal) = SQRT(40000) = 200, the S/N = 40000/200 = 200 = 46 dB or 7.6 bits. However, since the S/N of a camera is the number of electrons required for saturation divided by dark noise, a camera with 20,000 electrons full-well capacity and 15 electrons dark noise will yield a dynamic range of 20,000/15 = 1330 = 62.5 dB or 10.4 bits.

However, a camera’s S/N is not totally dependent on the S/N of the converter. The LightWise LW-5-S-1394 FireWire camera from Imaging Solutions Group (ISG), for example, uses Micron Technology’s 2592 × 1944 CMOS imager MT9P001. Despite the fact that the CMOS imager includes a 12-bit ADC, the S/N of the imager is specified as 38 dB. But the S/N of the camera is specified as “>38 dB.”

Rarely specified by any camera vendor, absolute sensitivity of a camera can be derived as a ratio between the dark noise and the QE of the camera. If, for example, the dark noise of a sensor is 50 electrons and the quantum efficiency of the imager is 50% at 550 nm, then the absolute sensitivity will be (50/(1/2)) or 100 photons. This is a measure of the minimum number of photons that can produce a minimum possible signal in the sensor or camera.

Often confused with S/N, the dynamic range of a camera is also expressed in decibels or number of bits. For sensors that behave in a linear fashion, the dynamic range is the ratio of the brightest unsaturated signal to the darkest possible signal detectable in the presence of noise. In the SI-1920HD MegaCamera from Silicon Imaging, for example, which uses a 1920 × 1080 CMOS imager, the dynamic range is 68 dB while the S/N is 52 dB at 0 dB gain. Since 68-dB dynamic range cannot be digitized with an 8-bit ADC, the SI-1920HD uses a 12-bit converter to digitize the signal from the sensor."


Coming from: http://www.optoiq.com/index/machine-...nce-specs.html
post #50 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The list is not 100% but plasma will be of the 58" size range from Panasonic, Samsung and LG. LCDs will be of the 55" size range from Sony, Samsung, LG and Toshiba (may also include the Cell processor display).

I sent you a PM a few days ago about calibration. Let me know if you have not received it and I can resend.

Thanks,
Robert.
post #51 of 3327
What has better black levels--an 8G Pioneer or a Panasonic VT25?
post #52 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

What has better black levels--an 8G Pioneer or a Panasonic VT25?

Same black level (.004 fL).

I think the 4280 and 5080 Kuros have slightly worse black levels though.
post #53 of 3327
Let me ask this: what has better black levels--an 8G Pioneer or a Panasonic VT25 after its black levels rise?

If the answer is the 8G Pioneer then i would have to say that the Panasonic VT25 is a disgrace--at least in terms of black level!

The fact that an 8G Pioneer isn't bested in the year 2010 in terms of black level is pathetic!
post #54 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Let me ask this: what has better black levels--an 8G Pioneer or a Panasonic VT25 after its black levels rise?

If the answer is the 8G Pioneer then i would have to say that the Panasonic VT25 is a disgrace--at least in terms of black level!

A disgrace? Well, nobody else has better black levels (not Samsung, LG, etc, etc). Obviously Pioneer was the best, but people didn't want to pay the premium price for it, and so they stopped making them. Not exactly a great business model to emulate, IMO. The vast majority of people want something "good enough" and reasonably priced.
post #55 of 3327
One thing about this place: there will always be posters who say rah rah for Good Enough.

Maybe they should rename the plasma forum the "Good Enough" forum!
post #56 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

One thing about this place: there will always be posters who say rah rah for Good Enough.

Maybe they should rename the plasma forum the "Good Enough" forum!

Or it could be renamed after cheerleaders like you the "pioneer fan boiz forum and nothing is evar going to be bettah"
post #57 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

One thing about this place: there will always be posters who say rah rah for Good Enough.

Maybe they should rename the plasma forum the "Good Enough" forum!

People in the speaker forum aren't going to buy the absolute best speakers possible. Some will buy good quality budget speakers. Some will buy best "bang for the buck" speakers. Some will buy expensive equipment. Same goes for the receiver forum, the blu ray player forum, the LCD forum, and also the plasma forum. Some people demand the best, and that's fine. Panasonic was never trying to be the absolute best, that was Pioneer's niche. They catered to high end and expensive market where Panasonic was more economical, though still very good quality. Now that Pioneer has left the market, people want Panasonic economical prices, but Pioneer high end quality. If Panasonic goes the expensive route, then they're facing stiff competition from the LCD market who are trying to threaten plasma with extinction. Lower prices are a must. Would people like Panasonic to do more? Of course, but we all must be realistic. Perhaps next year will be the year that Panasonic finally dethrones the Kuro, but only will happen if they have equal or lower black levels, stable black levels, and perfect color. If that happens then we get our wish, the high end quality with economical price, something even Pioneer could never offer. The VT is no slouch by any means. There are some who are super picky, and those that aren't. Realistically most aren't that picky.
post #58 of 3327
The Kuro has already been outperformed by the worst 3D tv simply because it can't do 3D. My LG LCD monitor that I'am typing this on has plenty good enough black level. TV is a viewing experience made up of many variables, and 3D easily trumps black level!
post #59 of 3327
I wonder why Panasonic couldn't offer just one really great model?

If it were expensively priced it wouldn't mean that they couldn't offer all the other models that they currently offer.

Is there some reason why that wouldn't work?

Sony and Samsung offer a few very expensively priced LCD models.

Chevrolet offers the Corvette for example.

Why couldn't Panasonic offer one expensively priced plasma model to cater to the high end that would be in Pioneer 9G quality level territory?

Any chance they might try that approach in 2011? If not then then maybe in 2012?
post #60 of 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

I wonder why Panasonic couldn't offer just one really great model?

If it were expensively priced it wouldn't mean that they couldn't offer all the other models that they currently offer.

Is there some reason why that wouldn't work?

Sony and Samsung offer a few very expensively priced LCD models.

Chevrolet offers the Corvette for example.

Why couldn't Panasonic offer one expensively priced plasma model to cater to the high end that would be in Pioneer 9G quality level territory?

Any chance they might try that approach in 2011? If not then then maybe in 2012?


Hi,

They did in 2009/2010 - the Z Series. It is rumoured that for 2011 there will be a Z2 & Z22 Series - based on what the Z-Series was priced at, expect them to have very premium pricing!

Bazzy!
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