2011 Panasonic Plasma [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 3

Has anyone considered why pioneer stopped selling plasma sets? They obviously were too expensive to produce and the market was too small for them to continue selling that technology.

Panasonic z1 had a bit of pioneer technology (single glass screen). No one bought it because it was expensive.

So what's going to change with a z2? Panasonic probably won't advertise the "kuro" moniker. Is the mass population going to buy a another $6000 panasonic?

Front bonded filter is not Pioneer tech. Even Samsung has it on all their plasmas. There is nothing expensive about it, in fact I bet it's cheaper.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. I didn't intend to mean the single glass was pioneer specific. It was the first attempt that I'm aware of by panasonic. Regardless who came up with the tech to make a better plasma. My point is that there isn't a big enough market to sell it right now, e.g. Z1, kuro.

Panasonic's processing is visibly inferior. Panasonic next year will need to offer some decent processing for a change if they wish to unseat the Kuro once and for all.

The problem with pioneer is the biz model. They keep selling premium products without mass market products. Technology in the premium products should be recycled into mass market 3 years down the road so u can continue to generate cash from the mass market to fund the R&D of the premium product. That's why apple still selling iPhone 3G and MacBook white and panny selling 1024 panels.

However for mass markets u need operational efficiency and scale which pioneer cannot master while panny has experiences in the consumer space in the midst of ever strengthening yen.

U need to be very big for scale like samsung or very niche like oppo. Problem was pioneer was in the middle.

In any case I read panny will use the kuro name next year. Hope they wont spoil the name Eagerly waiting.

Has anyone found out whether 3D technology will be spread out to the upcomming G3X and S3? That is if they even have the same name scheme.

I'm really interested in that. If I can unload a 2010 S2 plasma for $100 less than I paid then get a S3 or G3X, I'd be happy.

I'm almost certain I can't get an answer about whether or not the G3X will have a 58" model, but I figured I'd ask. No yes yes no?

Hi,

May I ask, where did you read that from?

Bazzy!

I have tried to google the article but can't seem to locate it. About one or two months ago, someone posted a link to some less expensive 3d sets that Panasonic was introducing in Japan late Summer, early Autumn. I have tried to look through their press releases and also their worldwide site, but don't seem to find anything on these now.

Possible Panasonic backtracked or maybe this was all from an alternate reality.

I would love a 2D only version of the VT25 with the faster phosphors and other enhancements Pany added this year, but without the 3D technology and a $500 lower price. Also no rising or floating blacks.

Our next big TV purchase scheduled for late 2012. Maybe Pany or someone will have an incredibly good set with long term reliability by then. Or not.

I think it will be:

Real-time Ultimate Infinite Black Pro Premiere

- Rich

Think u are asking about the Kuro part

http://www.channelnews.com.au/Display/Plasma/J4P8T4S3

There's another article that I read that said they will use the Kuro name but cant find it now

I will agree with you one this one. Their 96 Hz processing simply stinks!! Just improving black levels will not cut it if the processing yields all sorts of artifacts. Forget matching the Kuro then. Actually having a Panny and a Sammy makes me realize than the latter is superior in processing.

Hi!

Considering that the Pioneer processing was the very best (by a long shot) & probably the most expensive to implement is it then likely or probable that Panasonic will ever apply something so expensive in to sets catering for the mass market the majority of whom who would not even know what processing is?

My fear is that Panasonic have always built to a budget & even on top end models, if anything falls outside of the cost constraints then they will either exclude it & offer something lesser or a much watered down version of what we expect and/or they are capable of?

Bazzy!

And you read wrong because the demo in that link is a VT25 vs a V10.

D-Nice, are blacks for the best 2011 model supposed to possibly match a 9G Kuro but not surpass it?

Does Panasonic have a roadmap to slowly improve blacks/gamma/greyscale?

Thanks

Sorry, I've aready stated I am done with giving info on unreleased models.

As a 60" Kuro owner, the REAL question for me is whether they'll introduce a 70" or larger display for $5K or less.

Blacks are all well and good, but for 75% of the content watched on my tv...sports, documentaries, concerts, etc they're (slightly inferior blacks) hardly a deal breaker, so long as they're solid, and if the lifting issue is reigned in a bit and they bump them up furhter still, I'd be quite happy.

I cannot justify swapping out to go from a 60 to a 65 for an 8% increase in size, but a 70 and its 17% uptick would be more than tempting, I'm sure.

James

+1 on size and price.
However, I would like .001fl black levels that stay put

- Rich

Probably the most common mistake I have read on AVS, over the years, is people calculating screen sizes by using the diagonal sizes.

Any TV's area difference will be more than double the diagonal difference.
So, taking the actual screen sizes of 59.58" vs. 64.7", while an 8.6% diagonal difference, is an 18% area difference.

Furthermore, as the compared screen sizes get larger, the percentage difference equates to a larger absolute difference.
So, in this case, the difference is a 272.4 sq. in.

Good post.

I never did the math, but my Panasonic 65 appears noticeably larger than my Pioneer 60. It is not subtle.

- Rich

Indeed.

Here is a site that has been referenced before to calculate that difference.

http://www.displaywars.com/60-inch-16x9-vs-65-inch-16x9

D-Nice says "boo" and suddenly there's 32 pages of rampant speculation. No wonder he refuses to talk about certain things.

Sometimes I wonder if Panasonic bought out the Pioneer tech not to implement it, but to keep somebody else from buying and implementing it.

The only other makers are Koreans and strange as it may seem to you, Koreans and jap don't collaborate much due to historical reasons.

For once I hope D-Nice is wrong and I did not misread that panny is bringing back kuro next year. In my part of the world new Kuros are practically extinct.

Man, I am seriously thinking about upgrading my 50 inch Pioneer for a 82 inch Mits DLP for the extra 168% increase for 2.35:1 movies.

I haven't seen those two screen size TVs together (or even within a short period of time), but from what I have heard and from the math, I've always figured it to be a nice upgrade, for those that have the room. Better yet, have both TVs, you lucky bastard , I mean, good for you.

I had calculated the % difference from one TV to the next, in a some brands/model years of TVs, and, IIRC, the difference would typically avg. ~18%; as they want to make the differences in screen sizes, at least a subjectively moderate difference, so that it's worthwhile. (The two TV sizes being discussed aren't even from the same brand, and it happens to work out that way.)

I just recalculated the Panasonic plasmas:

Starting at 41.6",
up 22.4% to 46",
up 17.6% to 49.9",
up 17.4% to 54.1",
up 14.9% to 58",
up 24.4% to 64.7".

Does anyone know roughly how Panasonic sales are doing this year? Has the debacle over rising blacks and other purported problems given them any grief in market share?

It sure kept me at bay, waiting for 2011. I think, however, that Panasonic will only invest in fixing these problems and/or introducing more (potentially costly) Kuro tech into the products if they see a stumble coming and are losing customers to other manufacturers.

I stop by the Magnolia store every once in a while to check out this years sets again and chat up the sales reps. It always starts out the same, with them extolling the virtues of the sets. I always make it a point to lay out in gory detail why I'm not touching these particular sets, and what Panasonic needs to do to win me as a customer with next year's sets. I thought I've noticed a tinge of despair the last time I was there, but the guy for the first time seemed to know what I was talking about, so perhaps the message is getting back up the line.

At this point, all I would require of Panasonic with next year's sets to buy for sure would be:
1. Fix the MLL rise problem. I'd be happy with parity for black level to this year, so long as it stays put.
2. Fix any image quality crippling processing problems, 96Hz contouring, floating blacks, whatever.

That's it. I hope to be buying a 58" set a year from today.

-Jim

Hi the UK sets seem to have more issues & problems than the US ones & we always get shafted here by the CE companies in favour of their more lucrative markets so it does not bode well for us!

Although Samsung still cannot match the black levels of the new Panny's, they have made great strides this year & the black levels are quite respectable & more than good enough for the "mass market" - if this trend continues & Samsung keeps on improving, they might become the preferred sets to buy taking into account things like cost differentials etc.

If Panasonic does not up their game things like these issues, aesthetics etc, then they may very well lose market share to Samsung next year. Yes, the black levels will probably be still superior but to most of the market they will be plenty good enough & Samsung can pretty much match Panasonic now in most other areas - based on this (if accurate) is that most of the mass market will not usually pay nearly double for a Panny over Samsung. There seems to be very little overall between a Samsung 7000/8000 Series Plasma & the VT20/VT25's from what I have been able to ascertain but the cost differentials between the two sets is quite huge. If this trend continues, then, it might be that many who may never have considered a Samsung in the past, may very well do so in the future!

Bazzy!

Bazzy, yes, Samsung makes plasmas with great PQ (not quite as good as Panny, IMO, but close enough to consider, given the lower price), but suffers from reliability and customer service issues. Competition should help us consumers on all counts (both Panny and Samsung need to solve their issues to gain market share).

Hi BillP,

We in the UK are very used to shite customer service - it's something taht we grew up with & a deep rooted mentality within the industry that the customer is only a means to an end - the institution/industry is ALWAYS right & it is the customer that is always wrong!

I use to live in the USA & could not believe how generally awesome the CS was - it was liek at all times the Customer is KING & will always be so - whatever it took to make the customer happy was done. I also found if I amy respectfully say, that US customers were extremely demanding even if it was over the slightest little thing - they knew they were the ones with the power - what has happened?

As far as reliability & service issues are concerned whether it is Panasonic, Pioneer, Samsung, Sony or who ever - it makes absolutely no difference - in the UK, they are all the same - promise you the earth with bull marketing but will leave you well high & stranded if you have a problem & will usually just fob you off using any & all excuses - if you can get through to finally speak to some imbecile with half a watt of intelligence that is!

So sadly those very pertinent points you made cannot be factored or counted for anything this side of the pond - But you Yanks may still have it better? I am very surprised to read the same sort of trends working their way with US customers & them taking it lying down!


Bazzy!

Bazzy, sounds like poor customer service from all manufacturers in the UK, but that makes reliability even more important, and Panny is rated better than Sammy in most surveys (i.e., fewer defective sets). What happens in the UK if you get a Sammy buzzer?

Hi,

I cannot argue with you that generally Panny reliability is far better than that of Samsung - but if one has issues with either or any brand then no one will help here - except maybe the retailer with whom you bought the set - the level of support varies widely from one or the other. If you are out of the 7 or 14 day return period then it can be a very frustrating & convoluted process (generally speaking) to get things done - they all just try to pass the buck & the problem to one another or will not admit to any problems unless they absolutely have to.

I always make sure I only buy from places that offer a free 5 year extended third party warranty if at all possible. I too would never have considered a Samsung due to their generally poor reliability but will now consider it as long as I only purchase it from places like Costco etc.

I hope next year, Panny sorts out all the issues they have - rising blacks, motion blurring, juddering, aesthetics etc - after all no point having any of them no matter how reliable they are (which seems to be the current problem)!

Bazzy!