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Tca 18.2 - Page 19

post #541 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobygt68 View Post

I believe this is a picture of the Pro-10 speakers, is this what the finish on the CS18.2 series 2 will resemble?

I apologize, as I missed this question. The series 2 subwoofers will all have this finish, with an even smoother overall look, as the new hardwood plywood has a thin layer of MDF on it to give the finish a smoother base on which to be applied.

It's a more expensive product than even the Baltic Birch, but overall keeps the same strength while allowing for a better look.

The new product also will afford us the opportunity to offer wood finishes in the near future.
post #542 of 689
Craig, When do we get directions? Did you see my post about the HSU?
post #543 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Craig, When do we get directions? Did you see my post about the HSU?

James - Ray is going to send directions out this week, but I will PM them to you as well.

Our measurements are done using sine waves, not short term bursts.

We measured the CS-18.2 doing 107 dB on a sine wave at 20 Hz, 2 meters outdoors. It was 85 degrees out, and the sinewave was held for about 20 seconds.

We expect our subwoofers to deliver the goods on scenes like WOTW pods emerging.
post #544 of 689
I just ran that scene yesterday and I am quite pleased with the DTS-10's. I am integrating the dual CS-18.2's in the back of the room(replacing the back corner columns) at minimum.

I figured the tests were different. In my experience with the eD's my single 18 sealed was about the same spl as a high powered dual 12 ported(svs Plus/2). I can't see a single vented 15 besting dual sealed 18's unless in a tapped horn.
post #545 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I just ran that scene yesterday and I am quite pleased with the DTS-10's. I am integrating the dual CS-18.2's in the back of the room(replacing the back corner columns) at minimum.

I figured the tests were different. In my experience with the eD's my single 18 sealed was about the same spl as a high powered dual 12 ported(svs Plus/2). I can't see a single vented 15 besting dual sealed 18's unless in a tapped horn.

Provided you don't get any cancellations, I think the results should be awesome. I have my DTS 10s behind me and it's definitely tactile. You already have the front wave handled, now it will hit you from more angles. I'd imagine it would sound even more effortless.
post #546 of 689
Well, adding more woofage is crazy as I can hit over 120 db's from 10hz and up now. I want to see what is does to my response with 4 corner subs again. It will be a good chance to test CS 18.2's anyway. Based on my SHO-10's they should be fantastic. If they sound anything close to the DTS-10's I will be happy. I expect them to fall short of the DTS-10's(now $3000 each) in spl but be better than 4 of my eD 18's.

I have phase settings on my amps to help dial them in.
post #547 of 689
Here is a raw data graph of a CS-18.2 delivering 107 dB @ 2 meters groundplane. As mentioned earlier, it was 85 degrees Fahrenheit for this test.

This was using Tru-RTA's sine wave generator. Microphone was a TEF-25. Caibrator was from Pacifico. Sound card was an M-Audio Mobile Pre.

THD was kept under 10%.



For reference, here is the post Tom Danley made using sine waves on the DTS-10. I believe the 40, 50 and 63 Hz numbers were "light" by 4-5 dB, but overall, this is quite the performance for two 12 inch woofers - more output than our dual 18's at 20 Hz

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomDanley View Post

Hi all

Mike has taken the measurements according to the CEA 2010 criteria, like Illkka used except Mike measured at 2 meters for the values listed and we used a steady state sine wave instead of a tone burst..

These are steady state sine wave values (which is unavoidably harsh but we have not found an easy way yet to do it with a tone burst, with the test equipment we have.).
This is a pain in the rear too and we will re-visit this when we find an easier way to do it, but the weighted harmonic approach makes sense relative to perceptual masking..

So, anyway as of now, using a sine wave, one DTS-10 in half space, at two meters, reaches the following levels;
CEA 2010 Max RMS Output @ 2mtrs.
12Hz 102dB
16Hz 108dB
20Hz 109dB
25Hz 111dB
31.5 114dB
40Hz 114dB
50Hz 117dB
63Hz 115dB
80Hz 127 dB
Ultra low AVG 20-31.5Hz
111.3dB
Low Bass 40-63Hz
114.3
20Hz-80Hz AVG
115dB
I am keen to see how different two are, with our other Tapped horns there is a large improvement in the curve when you have two vs one.
Initially I had thought it would take two in a dedicated room, or four in a large room to reach the right fear factor.
When we can we will measure a pair the same way in half space, this will be significantly higher and produce a flatter response curve too..
Anyway, for those who were waiting for some comparable numbers, here are some to start with.
Best and happy listening.
Tom Danley
post #548 of 689
I was just looking at the CEA2010 spec, it allows for a 2nd harmonic distortion of -10db. I see yours is at -36db! Going one more harmonic, spec calls out 3rd harmonic to be below -15db, yours measures -28db.

That's some very clean output at max spl. I had my CS-18.2 playing 107db easily on the Pulse server room scene, and had plenty of gain and composure left to play with, but my ears and body were more than saturated at that point!
post #549 of 689
The graph I posted above is a 2 meter measurement. We add 6 dB for one meter.

Going to CEA2010 specs, and pushing things to a limit, we have an increase (including the lower temp) of 4 dB across the bandwidth. Yes, I did test with some of this short term measurement method in the summer, the numbers below are not guesses.

When we did our website, I was conservative in our specs - for example - calling the CS-18.2 for 112 dB @ 20 Hz (1 meter). A CS-18.2 will deliver that level with ease and for minutes at a time, not split seconds.

If we are pushing it with these short term bursts - and make no mistake, with allowing a -10 dB on the second harmonic, that is PUSHING - we will see one meter numbers on the CS-18.2 looking something like this:

20 Hz - 117 dB
25 Hz - 121 dB
31.5 Hz - 125 dB
40-100 Hz average - 131 dB

The thing about this short term burst is it won't last long. After the short term burst is done, you will lose about 3 dB in output due to amp limitations. Yes, I did test with some of this short term measurement method in the summer, the numbers above are not guesses.

We all need to keep this in mind when discussing output numbers.

Subtract 6 dB for the CS-18.1 Series 2.
post #550 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I was wondering how the sub was measured? Is this CES 2010 peak output or something else? The new HSU sub has higher numbers with a single ported 15 which does not make sense.

CSchang, later posted in that thread that the HSU sub was measured at 1 meter, not 2 meters, so you need to subtract 6db from all of the results posted to compare to the 2010 chart.
post #551 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

CSchang, later posted in that thread that the HSU sub was measured at 1 meter, not 2 meters, so you need to subtract 6db from all of the results posted to compare to the 2010 chart.

You are correct - and the numbers in my last post were adjusted for one meter.

The issue I have with this short term burst stuff is pretty simple: Look at the more recent waterfall charts, and we find a lot more intense bass scenes which are much longer than the short term ability of the amp to deliver sufficient power.

If one looks at the Danley DTS-10 numbers, those were also sine waves (and I still think the 40, 50 and 63 Hz measurements were about 4-5 dB "light") instead of short term bursts.

I know many will suggest I am wrong and CEA is right, but I still think long term output is more important than a short term burst.
post #552 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The issue I have with this short term burst stuff is pretty simple: Look at the more recent waterfall charts, and we find a lot more intense bass scenes which are much longer than the short term ability of the amp to deliver sufficient power.


I know many will suggest I am wrong and CEA is right, but I still think long term output is more important than a short term burst.
Maybe not if you were measuring full range and you wanted to know how punchy a snare drum hit is going to be?

I would think that things like rumblings from movie soundtracks, five string bass lines and the "shake" down low from a loose kick drum would tax peak power.

Does a peak measurement have value? Of course it does.
Is it the best indicator of perceived loudness by the human ear when a unit is driven near it's limits? Probably not. I think it has more value with higher frequency content than the type of low frequency content we generally hear from todays soundtracks in the lowest octave. You need some sustained power and thermal handling to get through the famed "WOTW" scene because some of that stuff, just doesn't quit.

I would say that how an amp behaves when pushed to the brink with regards to soft clipping and how the built in limiters operate is more relevant to perceived loudness than "peak power". If it "acts up" something fierce, you have to lower the level. If you don't believe me, then how can I run a 50 watt tube guitar head in a 400 seat club and have the sound engineer yell "Hey Jeremy, you have to turn down, I can't get you in the PA!" ?

This is an extreme example of course of heavy compression and apparent volume. Of course, I would not suggest regularly running a sub into heavy clipping just because you can get away with it with a certain model.
But it illustrates the point. And why a side by side listening test accompanied by measurements is probably just the right mixture when loudness is what is being determined.
post #553 of 689
Danley has mentioned they messed up on their measuring and also they were using a bad driver too. The DTS-10 is really a beast. I can't wait to try out the cs 18.2's. They are going in my back corners for testing and then implementing them with my dual danley's. BTW, my back corners will add 10 db's compared to the front corners. If my dual dts-10's hit 130 db's(they do) in the front they will hit 140db's in the back with the same exact settings. My guys just watched some demos and they looked at me and said, you are adding more subs?.
post #554 of 689
MKtheater exciting times whenever new speakers arrive! Looks like two big boxes will be in the back of your vehicle heading back with you this weekend.
post #555 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.T.MIKE View Post

MKtheater exciting times whenever new speakers arrive! Looks like two big boxes will be in the back of your vehicle heading back with you this weekend.

Yes and why I am bringing the minivan with the back row of seats stowed away. They will make perfect stands for my surrounds(except mine are wall mounted).

I had dual 18 inch folded horn subs back there, one in each corner, and I could peg the meter with WOTW's. A SVS Plus/2 could hit 120db's(compressing) in one back corner as well. I would expect these to hit 130 db's back there so they can keep up with the DTS-10's. I will run the whole system 5 db's hot. Even with all this bass I do not drown out my mains as they hold their own.
post #556 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes and why I am bringing the minivan with the back row of seats stowed away. They will make perfect stands for my surrounds(except mine are wall mounted).

I had dual 18 inch folded horn subs back there, one in each corner, and I could peg the meter with WOTW's. A SVS Plus/2 could hit 120db's(compressing) in one back corner as well. I would expect these to hit 130 db's back there so they can keep up with the DTS-10's. I will run the whole system 5 db's hot. Even with all this bass I do not drown out my mains as they hold their own.

Quick question:

Will you be running full REW sweeps with a pro-calibrated mic and sound card, graphs both before and after, with and without, same corner vs. same corner, etc., to do a real comparison of the 18.2's versus the DTS-10's? I realize it'd be a lot of work, but I'd like to see a scientific-ish comparison of these and you seem like just the guy to do it, based on the crazy amount of equipment (and money) you appear to have. This would really benefit the community, I think, and raise the level of knowledge on these various products.
post #557 of 689
I don't have a calibrated mic except for my cal files in REW with my RS meter. Moving my danley's out and putting the cs 18.2 in is lots of work because I would have to get the dts-10's out of the room. I know the dts-10's will have more output but I want to test their sound quality over everything, and extension.

I will measure but I have to figure this krell out first with my PC.
post #558 of 689
Dual 18.2 subs located in the back should have no problem hitting 130db's. MKtheater as you mentioned your impression of the sound quality as well as extension is what I am looking fwd to reading about. Getting loud is one thing but to do it effortlessly and remain "accurate" is another.
post #559 of 689
I also have dual DTS-10's (not built yet) for LFE channel. I've been contemplating either stacked ED A7s450's or Epik Empires in each rear corner or a single CS18.2 in the corners. Hopefully MK's results will help me decide. Also front corners would get same treatment. I'm looking for something to keep up with the Danley's infrasonically for the main channels (L,C,R,LS,RS).
post #560 of 689
Craig. When can we expect to see this exciting subwoofer going to europe?
post #561 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by surap View Post

Craig. When can we expect to see this exciting subwoofer going to europe?

you should be able to feel it there when MK fires his system up
post #562 of 689
Just last night I met with someone who designs and installs home theaters as a career, I'm hiring him as a consultant to sort of father the process for my HT. He was talking about sub placement and said that for the smoothest in room response the best location is actually dead center of the room but that is rarely an option so the next best (for maximizing smooth response of course) is on the wall along either the horizontal or vertical center lines for the room. I can see how what he is saying is probably true but aren't there a few caveats to that setup? I have an able bodied eD sub currently running upstairs in my family room and there are all kinds of various nulls and hot spots for it, so isn't that going to be the case for any room it's placed in? Doesn't smoothing the response in the whole room come at a cost of peak output? I was under the impression that positioning the sub to focus the hot spots at the LP was the best way to maximize the subs performance. From what I've heard I can't imagine just pre-designing an alcove to "tuck" the sub into without doing any testing.

What do you guys think? To those of you who might suggest I find the sweet spot first, I might add that the sub weighs more than 2 men and therefore to be able to move around in the theater it will likely have to end up in an alcove of sorts, which I can't figure out a way to test said location without having it built already to see how well it works there. I hope I've made my dilemma clear
post #563 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

you should be able to feel it there when MK fires his system up

Soo..this is a continent to continent competition then? Wait and see what happens when I connect them directly to a nuclear plant....
post #564 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideofpotatos View Post

Just last night I met with someone who designs and installs home theaters as a career, I'm hiring him as a consultant to sort of father the process for my HT. He was talking about sub placement and said that for the smoothest in room response the best location is actually dead center of the room but that is rarely an option so the next best (for maximizing smooth response of course) is on the wall along either the horizontal or vertical center lines for the room. I can see how what he is saying is probably true but aren't there a few caveats to that setup? I have an able bodied eD sub currently running upstairs in my family room and there are all kinds of various nulls and hot spots for it, so isn't that going to be the case for any room it's placed in? Doesn't smoothing the response in the whole room come at a cost of peak output? I was under the impression that positioning the sub to focus the hot spots at the LP was the best way to maximize the subs performance. From what I've heard I can't imagine just pre-designing an alcove to "tuck" the sub into without doing any testing.

What do you guys think? To those of you who might suggest I find the sweet spot first, I might add that the sub weighs more than 2 men and therefore to be able to move around in the theater it will likely have to end up in an alcove of sorts, which I can't figure out a way to test said location without having it built already to see how well it works there. I hope I've made my dilemma clear

Any chance you can call a buddy or two to help you out and do some bass crawling. Last thing you want is to prebuild a spot that ends up to be a null.
post #565 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by surap View Post

Craig. When can we expect to see this exciting subwoofer going to europe?

We are waiting the OK from Dayton on the amps. They have a European distributor, and this company has done a nice job for them. We don't wish for this company to feel we are competing with them in their market.

If necessary, we will make arrangements to ship the units without the amp, with instructions regarding how to get the amplifier from the European supplier.
post #566 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

We are waiting the OK from Dayton on the amps. They have a European distributor, and this company has done a nice job for them. We don't wish for this company to feel we are competing with them in their market.

If necessary, we will make arrangements to ship the units without the amp, with instructions regarding how to get the amplifier from the European supplier.

Great Craig!
post #567 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I know many will suggest I am wrong and CEA is right, but I still think long term output is more important than a short term burst.

It would be great if we can get sub manufacturers to test to a standard. I understand your reasoning, but its easy to see that if sub manufacturers just use their own arbitrary testing standards, they'll use tests that play to their sub's strengths... keeping purchasers uninformed.
post #568 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

It would be great if we can get sub manufacturers to test to a standard. I understand your reasoning, but its easy to see that if sub manufacturers just use their own arbitrary testing standards, they'll use tests that play to their sub's strengths... keeping purchasers uninformed.

A test I would like to see is how a subwoofer handles 3 frequencies at once for a 5, 7 or possibly 10 second duration.

Example: 20 -35 -50 Hz ... then 25 - 40 - 60 Hz and finally 30 - 55 - 75 Hz.

Something like this, at 2 meters groundplane, with raw graphs shown on LinearX or Tru-RTA would be very revealing of any subwoofer's performance, including what to expect on program material.
post #569 of 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

A test I would like to see is how a subwoofer handles 3 frequencies at once for a 5, 7 or possibly 10 second duration.

Example: 20 -35 -50 Hz ... then 25 - 40 - 60 Hz and finally 30 - 55 - 75 Hz.

Something like this, at 2 meters groundplane, with raw graphs shown on LinearX or Tru-RTA would be very revealing of any subwoofer's performance, including what to expect on program material.

The Consumer Electronics Association came up with a standard you don't like, but it's intent was to help consumers (like those in these forums) make informed choices.

Without standards like these, sub manufacturers will continue to use tests that play to their sub's strengths and downplay their weaknesses.

I guess some of us (your potential customers) would like to see subs tested by the same sets of rules for that reason, but no one is telling you that you have to do it. You believe that your set of testing provides more information to consumers at the cost of not being able to directly compare craigsubs to other subs who are complying to CEA testing standards. No problemo.
post #570 of 689
A good compromise would be to perform your testing according to CEA standards and then do a seperate test if you wish to highlight other strengths of your product. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
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