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Warpdrv's Dual Opposed 18" LMS's..... "The XLerators" - Page 2

post #31 of 507
Much cleaner. now i hate you... i would say you are in the top 5 subwoofer systems of all of AVS. Looks do matter in this category btw... So the ear doesnt automatically just win it
post #32 of 507
really nice warp. congratulations.

what is the striated wood veneer? it looks fantastic. (props john j. if you are lurking)

when you say 13 ply birch, is that 13 ply of birch or 13 plys of "who knows" wood with a birch veneer? the 4x8 sheet on the cnc suggests that it didn't come from the baltic, which comes in 5x5 iirc.

what are you powering with all those crest amps? is all that power just for subs???

you had a bunch of maelstroms before, right? what are you hoping to gain relative to them?

btw, i hope that you ride with full gear...boots, leathers, helmet. that is a dangerous sport. ;-)
post #33 of 507
Thread Starter 
Wowsers, thanks - lots of questions

13ply baltic birch is very easy to come by here in 4 x 8 sheets, every one of my boxes was built with it. menards carries it in stock, not sure where John got supply but its 13 ply.

Veneer is Mahogany - reminded me of ebony, just toned down a touch.

6 drivers, 1 amp for each driver, 3 x 30 amp circuits just for sub duty.
2 x 20 amp circuit for the rest of the equipment, D2v, 65" panny Wyred4Sound Amp other various other gear.
15 amp for server

Which sport...? ATV's or Bike - Shoei Helmets & Kevlars all the way
post #34 of 507
So when are you going to have a little get together to show 'em off! :-)
post #35 of 507
never heard of bb in 4x8 sheets. learn something every day. we don't have menard's on the east coast. the best stuff that we have here is appleply, which is quite similar to bb. it has nothing to do with apples that is just a branding bit (as american as apple pie). it is a void free hardwood ply.

you made a great choice on the veneer. they are certainly lookers. you will be getting comments on those for 50 pages. there are many ways to cut veneer. do you happen to know what cut john j. used in order to give the nice striations?

one amp per driver...lol...never even considered that possiblity. that's awesome. ok, that explains it. 90 amps just for sub duty...lol. did you have to upgrade the panel itself? your sub/speaker circuits seem to be wired for more current than the typical house!

do you know their final fighting weight? can you move them by yourself? i suppose that with the combination of the lever and the wheel (moving dolly) one man can move a refrigerator.

with the price drop on the drives and the beautiful cabinet work from john j., i'd expect to see a lot more of these show up in the coming days.

bike. because you have to deal with idiots driving suv's who aren't paying attention to what they are doing.
post #36 of 507
Thread Starter 
Yeah I was trying to figure out what amps to get to power these things but I really didn't want to break the bank (Lab Gruppen style ), already had 3 of these Crest 8002's which are awesome, Mike Hurd was the man - said just get 3 more and power each driver individually.... never thought of that either.
Got them all used..... at a great price, very heavy duty amps, plus they have a XLR in and out, so a short loop from one to the next for each box makes that really easy to EQ....

The power circuits are way overkill, 2 amps per circuit - the amps will be basically limping along and doubtful they will ever draw anywhere near that kind of power - ever. My hot tub draws more amps then this setup.

I'm thinking the boxes empty are roughly 150lbs + 80 lbs each driver. Roughly 300 or so each... http://www.buystraps.com/Default.asp?bhcp=1 should make moving easy enough I would think.
post #37 of 507
Very impressive Patrick! I know you've been waiting awhile on them but they really look like they were worth the wait.
post #38 of 507
after researching it a bit, those crest 8002's are something quite special. equally nice as the subs. do you mind if i ask what kind of pricing you were finding as you looked around for second hand amps (not necessarily what you paid, just what kind of market for this level of performance)? all in, damn warp, you are hitting on all cylinders. i'm not in chicago anymore, but if i was, i'd be up to hear your setup on a moment's notice. lots of good audio coming out of the midwest lately.
post #39 of 507
Are these 8 ohm or 4 ohm drivers?

How many watts are recommended for these drivers to perform at there best?
post #40 of 507
The TC Sound LMS drivers are only 4ohm. I haven't used one yet (one is on the way), but from everything I've read about them, they can take anywhere from 4,000-5,000 rms watts with no problem.
post #41 of 507
personally, i'd like to see some power compression tests as 5kw into a 0.5% efficient driver is going to produce heat like multiple heatguns. where are the 4975 watts of heat going? i'm skeptical of these ratings. at 4 ohms, 5000 watts is 35 amps of current. what gauge wire is used on the winding on the lms? 8? 6? those are the approximate size for handling such current. my maths may be all wrong, if so, please just point them out and i'll eat my shoe.
post #42 of 507
Just a few notes on the cabinets. The wood is true 13ply baltic birch. Most baltic only comes in 60x60" sheets, but due to the demand our distributor now has it in 4x8 sheets. We buy it direct through our distributor and was about $65 a sheet at the time. It's gone up another 25% or so since then as everything does during building season. The stuff that is at home depot or menards, at least up here is about $30-35 a sheet but is chinese birch plywood. It has a lot of voids and the layers often peel part because the pink glue isn't very good.

I got quite good at the stain/finish process on mahogany with these. I think each cabinet was finished at least 3 times and had 2 layers of veneer. The veneer had to be special ordered with the grain laid up across the 4x8 sheets to fit the dimensions of the boxes. As a result when run through their sanders it was sanded directly across the grain instead of with the grain. Don't ever sand across the grain, especially on softer woods that absorb a lot of stain. The scratches stick out like a sore thumb and stain doesn't absorb evenly anywhere. This presented all kinds of problems. We ended up reordering veneer twice before getting something useful.

If any of you ever work with mahogany, use a sponge to wet it. Let the grain raise and let it dry. Then scratch with 180 grit with the grain in one direction. It seems normal sanding isn't enough. 180grit, lots of pressure. Set it down at the far side, lots of pressure and pull, pick up the sandpaper, set it back down at the other side, repeat. This will give nice 180grit scratches all in the same direction that take stain equally. Then use a good water based stain that is 50/50 pigment/dye as oil based stain doesn't absorb evenly. I've also discovered the joys and difficulties of spraying a water based clearcoat, but that is a different tutorial all together.

John
post #43 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

personally, i'd like to see some power compression tests as 5kw into a 0.5% efficient driver is going to produce heat like multiple heatguns. where are the 4975 watts of heat going? i'm skeptical of these ratings. at 4 ohms, 5000 watts is 35 amps of current. what gauge wire is used on the winding on the lms? 8? 6? those are the approximate size for handling such current. my maths may be all wrong, if so, please just point them out and i'll eat my shoe.

seems to be about right...
http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html
post #44 of 507
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

after researching it a bit, those crest 8002's are something quite special. equally nice as the subs. do you mind if i ask what kind of pricing you were finding as you looked around for second hand amps (not necessarily what you paid, just what kind of market for this level of performance)? all in, damn warp, you are hitting on all cylinders. i'm not in chicago anymore, but if i was, i'd be up to hear your setup on a moment's notice. lots of good audio coming out of the midwest lately.


Thanks LTD02, as stated I have had some help along the way from good friends here, Ricci and I discussed different amp possibilities for the LMS's over a year ago, and the Crest 8002's had great performance which can really hang with the big boys in the Binks Amp tests

Again, I was looking at Lab Gruppen's like HealthNut, but Ricci had been somewhat adamant that not everyone was convinced that was the way to go, as their products haven't truly made any advances for many many years, though the model numbers kept changing "new model" as did the price increases. And their stability in the deep bass range was also questionable. It was when I was on the phone with my Canadian friend Mike Hurd - that he suggested just doubling up on the 8002's, which hadn't occurred to me whatsoever either. The on board "XLR in and Pass through XLR OUT" made this very simple.

Though at the time, they were really hard to come by and we cleaned out the used market pretty well... you can still get them. I started my build at about the same time as HealthNut did, late 2009. Drivers arrived early feb, I got the amps from Sound Broker in Vegas - roughly $700 each, a touch more a year ago when Ricci and I quietly cleaned up the market on used 8002 amps.
post #45 of 507
"Just a few notes on the cabinets. The wood is true 13ply baltic birch. Most baltic only comes in 60x60" sheets, but due to the demand our distributor now has it in 4x8 sheets. We buy it direct through our distributor and was about $65 a sheet at the time. It's gone up another 25% or so since then as everything does during building season. The stuff that is at home depot or menards, at least up here is about $30-35 a sheet but is chinese birch plywood. It has a lot of voids and the layers often peel part because the pink glue isn't very good.

I got quite good at the stain/finish process on mahogany with these. I think each cabinet was finished at least 3 times and had 2 layers of veneer. The veneer had to be special ordered with the grain laid up across the 4x8 sheets to fit the dimensions of the boxes. As a result when run through their sanders it was sanded directly across the grain instead of with the grain. Don't ever sand across the grain, especially on softer woods that absorb a lot of stain. The scratches stick out like a sore thumb and stain doesn't absorb evenly anywhere. This presented all kinds of problems. We ended up reordering veneer twice before getting something useful.

If any of you ever work with mahogany, use a sponge to wet it. Let the grain raise and let it dry. Then scratch with 180 grit with the grain in one direction. It seems normal sanding isn't enough. 180grit, lots of pressure. Set it down at the far side, lots of pressure and pull, pick up the sandpaper, set it back down at the other side, repeat. This will give nice 180grit scratches all in the same direction that take stain equally. Then use a good water based stain that is 50/50 pigment/dye as oil based stain doesn't absorb evenly. I've also discovered the joys and difficulties of spraying a water based clearcoat, but that is a different tutorial all together."

this is awesome info john j. most other companies would just hold this info close to their chest. you go balls out. i can't tell you how much street cred that earns you. much thanks.

do you have a scaled down version of this build using your av15h's?
post #46 of 507
thanks for the info warp. i am trying to give up envy as an emotion, but i must admit that i am still a little green with respect to your new rig. with hope, i will find something that will make me happy too.

the last i recall you were running some paradigm mains. is that still the case or are you upgrading?
post #47 of 507
Thread Starter 
Quote:

do you have a scaled down version of this build using your av15h's?

I watched John on the CAD software briefly and he's a genius with it.

If it isn't made, though I think the plan is already done for them... It'll only take him a few minutes to layout.

John, thanks again for the great work on these sexy cabs...
I know they were a pain in your @$$ with the veneer, but truly turned out amazing... My hats off to you.
post #48 of 507
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

thanks for the info warp. i am trying to give up envy as an emotion, but i must admit that i am still a little green with respect to your new rig. with hope, i will find something that will make me happy too.

the last i recall you were running some paradigm mains. is that still the case or are you upgrading?

Upgraded last fall to the Paradigm Sig S8's .v3, C5 and S2's rear surrounds are infinity which work great... This system impresses me constantly, "The XLerators" are the last link in the chain...
post #49 of 507
Quote:
roughly $700 each, a touch more a year ago when Ricci and I quietly cleaned up the market on used 8002 amps.

Bastards!!!

Thanks for letting us in on that little secrect
post #50 of 507
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Bastards!!!

Thanks for letting us in on that little secrect

Well, the Crown CE4000's were being gobbled up and nowhere to be found, and there were very few of the 8002's out there at the time, so we were just a bit hesitant to announce it to everyone.....

Still some avail, just gotta hunt them down - pro audio brokers
post #51 of 507
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Just a few notes on the cabinets. The wood is true 13ply baltic birch. Most baltic only comes in 60x60" sheets, but due to the demand our distributor now has it in 4x8 sheets. We buy it direct through our distributor and was about $65 a sheet at the time. It's gone up another 25% or so since then as everything does during building season. The stuff that is at home depot or menards, at least up here is about $30-35 a sheet but is chinese birch plywood. It has a lot of voids and the layers often peel part because the pink glue isn't very good.

Just a note I meant to respond earlier.
All the baltic birch I got from menards here in milwaukee was 13 ply birch, and void free about $65-70 a 4 x 8 sheet. The stuff at Home Depot was cr@p as you described, and not 13ple, more like 7-9 and full of voids.
post #52 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Just a note I meant to respond earlier.
All the baltic birch I got from menards here in milwaukee was 13 ply birch, and void free about $65-70 a 4 x 8 sheet. The stuff at Home Depot was cr@p as you described, and not 13ple, more like 7-9 and full of voids.

Yep, same for me Warp. Actually, I called North American ply, which appears to be the biggest supplier of BB nationwide(sold HealthNut his thick BB), and they supply Menards as well. Same stuff you would get anywhere.
post #53 of 507
"The TC Sound LMS drivers are only 4ohm. I haven't used one yet (one is on the way), but from everything I've read about them, they can take anywhere from 4,000-5,000 rms watts with no problem."

"...personally, i'd like to see some power compression tests as 5kw into a 0.5% efficient driver is going to produce heat like multiple heatguns."

Yes, that's not really possible.

I think oftener than not "handles n W rms" means it can be powered by an n W rms amplifier, where crest factor in music would mean it only needs to handle n/4 W avg.

Also, "rms" doesn't mean "continuous" as we often assume, it's the sine wave equivalent that matches the heating power of a complex waveform.
post #54 of 507
Thread Starter 
A few updates, labored pretty hard yesterday at work for 11 hours, but couldn't resist the urge to start droppin in drivers. Was up until 1 am, and my body finally gave out.. hot and humid as H3LL here so it was a pleasure to spend my day off indoors finishing up the driver installs...

2 boxes finished.... lots of work and wowsers are these things heavy, can't possibly imagine what HealthNut was thinking with the stone though they are unique...

Anywho.... here are some pics











Gotta take the woman out for a steak dinner for helping with all the hard work, may possibly wire them up tonight, otherwise tomorrow...
post #55 of 507
Nice another TC Sounds LMS 5400 Ultra owner with multiples,and proper power behind these beasts.

To me these are the finest bass drivers made, paired with clean massive power in well build cabinets...winning combination.

I use PL380's and iTech8000 to power my army of LMS 5400 Ultra beats.

I tell you right now...HUGE HAPPY FACE awaits when you set them up, fine tune...all working in unison...huge happy face.

All these commercial sealed subs...hah they have not much on these.
post #56 of 507
So I was just watching some TV, and suddenly out of the blue my subs started shivering, as if they were terrified. Then I opened up this thread .... you BASTARD!!



Absolutely stunning subs P. Wow. Congrats!!! That is pretty much bass nirvana. My God those boxes are huge!!
post #57 of 507
Congrats on the outstanding subs, to think you have 1 more on the way for a total of 3 is mind boggling.

Did you use some sort of hook or wire to lower the drivers into opening? Did you use the TC supplied wood screws?
I have a pair that will show up tomorrow and was wondering the best way to mount the driver without losing a couple of fingertips.
post #58 of 507
Outstanding looking subs!

They don't look anything like the normal DIY type, they look professional and classy.

If I had not ordered my JTR Orbit Shifter I would be building something similiar to these. Wait would a pair of these match well with the horned JTR?
post #59 of 507
Thread Starter 
Those pics didn't turn out very well, I'll have to get the camera out for some better shots up.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Nice another TC Sounds LMS 5400 Ultra owner with multiples,and proper power behind these beasts.

To me these are the finest bass drivers made, paired with clean massive power in well build cabinets...winning combination.

I use PL380's and iTech8000 to power my army of LMS 5400 Ultra beats.

I tell you right now...HUGE HAPPY FACE awaits when you set them up, fine tune...all working in unison...huge happy face.

All these commercial sealed subs...hah they have not much on these.

Agreed, nothing in the commercial world can compete with the quantity and quality these drivers deliver. NOTHING !! Good power supply and sources, the ultimate on SQ and performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

So I was just watching some TV, and suddenly out of the blue my subs started shivering, as if they were terrified. Then I opened up this thread .... you BASTARD!!



Absolutely stunning subs P. Wow. Congrats!!! That is pretty much bass nirvana. My God those boxes are huge!!

I don't think you got it all that bad, your subs are great and you worked really hard at getting really good results from going the whole nine yards with setup, measurements EQ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Congrats on the outstanding subs, to think you have 1 more on the way for a total of 3 is mind boggling.

Did you use some sort of hook or wire to lower the drivers into opening? Did you use the TC supplied wood screws?
I have a pair that will show up tomorrow and was wondering the best way to mount the driver without losing a couple of fingertips.

Make sure the outer baffles are at least 1/4" at least larger then the rubber mounting gasket, they drop in pretty easy...

I remove the rubber mounting gasket, set the basket in the hole. make the measurements, and line up the TC Sounds imprint so its level. Drill the tap holes with a small bit sized for the factory wood screws. Then thread the holes with the factory wood screws, running them in and out a couple times. Put painters tape down and make a mark on them with a line showing where the holes are. I used closed cell weather stripping to prevent leaks on the inner baffle (1/4" x 3/4").

Super glue the rubber gasket onto the basket (bottom side small line of drips in between mount holes. Set basket into baffle on one side, start too align holes and lower down onto a thick plastic spatula, which is the last thing you pull out. Painters tape a few levels thick in place should keep box baffle edge from being scraped.

Extra hands are always a plus - these things are @ 80lbs...
post #60 of 507
Thanks a lot for the tips, I saved them as a Word file so I can refer back quickly.

The super glue and spatula tips are something I didn't even think of.

Thanks again.
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