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Warpdrv's Dual Opposed 18" LMS's..... "The XLerators" - Page 17

post #481 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Thanks, I needed this.

This post from another forum was recently forwarded to me:



I rebuttal that remark.

Bosso

Was this discussing me? Guys have to remember what I said about the DTS-10's and my eD's when I first put them in. My friend and I thought they were not as good as the eD's in their original position. Both systems were measured flat as possible without EQ. I then moved the DTS-10's and now they had some serious low end the eD's did not so based on that I chose them. I did not realize at the time that the DTS-10's had a huge peak of 15 db's from 15-25hz. I did not realize this until I bought the CS subs and started measuring again.

Warp, sorry about the OT.
post #482 of 507
I keep seeing people say that REW is a pita. I think it is about as easy as it gets really while still having most of the functionality you could want. I like its interface. I can get it up and running in under 3 min. Its like any other program you have to use it enough to get familiar with it. Plus John has been making some great improvements to it lately. Wait till you try Arta or Rplusd or Holmimpulse and you will appreciate the clean layout and straight forward approach that rew has.
post #483 of 507
Quote:


Wait till you try Arta or Rplusd or Holmimpulse and you will appreciate the clean layout and straight forward approach that rew has.


FWIW, HOLM was far easier to work with then even REW. Sound card calibration is one step. One Click Measurement and gating is easier.

John and I have had PMs on this topic too. Im hoping some of that discussion adds some new REW features.

ARTA is an absolute pain in the ass to calibrate the sound card but I love it for running Pink Noise/real time measuring that allows me to see the tweaks instantly in my Active XO designs.

I do like REW now that it has MiniDSP and DCX EQing features but I still would not use it for full range speaker design (John did address this in PM). I just picked up SoundEasy so that will be the only tool I use in the future for design
post #484 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Was this discussing me? Guys have to remember what I said about the DTS-10's and my eD's when I first put them in. My friend and I thought they were not as good as the eD's in their original position. Both systems were measured flat as possible without EQ. I then moved the DTS-10's and now they had some serious low end the eD's did not so based on that I chose them. I did not realize at the time that the DTS-10's had a huge peak of 15 db's from 15-25hz. I did not realize this until I bought the CS subs and started measuring again.

Warp, sorry about the OT.

No Doc, this is from a thread discussing my system in a forum where they admit by its title that they are infinitely baffled.

Thomas is one of the top forum posters of all time in my book, but many of his forum guests tend to define the term "irrational exuberance".

[Attached thumbnail is titled "Ugly Boxes"]

Bosso

post #485 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

No Doc, this is from a thread discussing my system in a forum where they admit by its title that they are infinitely baffled.

Thomas is one of the top forum posters of all time in my book, but many of his forum guests tend to define the term "irrational exuberance".

[Attached thumbnail is titled "Ugly Boxes"]

Bosso


OK, cool. Still love your subs
post #486 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

Ok bosso, so what am I missing then with the dual opposed designs then and the better drivers?
http://stgdz.shackspace.com/Shack/ho...ed/18group.jpg

I plotted out the LMS 5400, the Mach V 15" IXL, the ED 18" and a mael-X. The eD uses dans data that he got from it and its the winner but the box is massive at 600 liters, the mach V is the low man at is usually -3dB across the range and the mael-X is about 1dB more efficient the machV. Even at about 2 1/2 times the power the LMS still hasn't passed up the ED driver but it sits between the mael-x and the ED. The LMS is also more efficient above 40hz with the maximum efficiency occuring at 100hz with 4dB above the eD.


Of course the LMS comes in at the smallest box size but the machV is about twice the size of the LMS and the mael-X slightly larger then the machV.


The issue though is the X-max, the ED passes it at 10hz and is 1mm over at 5hz and 5mm over at 3hz. The mach-V doesn't pass the X-max until 5hz and is about 5mm over at 3hz also. Both the Mael-X and the LMS don't hit their respective X-max's with the values in the image I showed(1300 and 3600). Hell it takes 5000watts for the LMS to over run the x-max but that is only at 3hz and it is just over the line and even then it barely bests the eD.


So what am I missing with this? Does distortion just ramp up below when we get into the ULF's? Does going over Xmax at the ULF's any different than when you go over x-max above 15hz? The eD looks like a really good setup if you can stand the large box.

All you really get from modeling drivers is a close approximation of a) what the frequency response magnitude will be with 'x' input and b) the approximate F3 and Q in a given Vb.

Sometimes you don't even get that.

To add to the point that modeling is of marginal value; no chance the ED matches the performance of the LMS one-on-one in any category.

Bosso
post #487 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

FWIW, HOLM was far easier to work with then even REW. Sound card calibration is one step. One Click Measurement and gating is easier.

John and I have had PMs on this topic too. Im hoping some of that discussion adds some new REW features.

ARTA is an absolute pain in the ass to calibrate the sound card but I love it for running Pink Noise/real time measuring that allows me to see the tweaks instantly in my Active XO designs.

I do like REW now that it has MiniDSP and DCX EQing features but I still would not use it for full range speaker design (John did address this in PM). I just picked up SoundEasy so that will be the only tool I use in the future for design


I gave up on Holm. It just lacked so much functionality that I want. Also yes Rew is limited by its gating function and interface for full range use but I suspect John will improve it soon enough. Especially if you get enough people to bug him about it. Arta is my go to for many things.
post #488 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I gave up on Holm. It just lacked so much functionality that I want. Also yes Rew is limited by its gating function and interface for full range use but I suspect John will improve it soon enough. Especially if you get enough people to bug him about it. Arta is my go to for many things.

IMO, any app built for Windows is a PITA. Measurement apps are no exception.

Having said that, I agree that REW is by far the cleanest layout and serves my purposes of seeing what's happening when a subwoofer is put in a room and let loose.

I haven't upgraded my version since forever. Can you list some of the useful revisions?

Bosso
post #489 of 507
Thread Starter 
I'm pretty excited about getting REW up and running for myself and I find it to be a superior product to most all that I have seen, and the new REW is getting some great updates - with more and more equipment in the list - like the DCX and minidsp which is very helpful to transfer EQ over....

If we could it would be great if we started to move the REW discussion over to a dedicate thread - I already had one going which died off... but here it is...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=rew
post #490 of 507
Thread Starter 
Looks like LMS's are back in stock at PE...

Time to get a replacement basket for my extra motor I scored for my next sub....
post #491 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
I gave up on Holm. It just lacked so much functionality that I want. Also yes Rew is limited by its gating function and interface for full range use but I suspect John will improve it soon enough. Especially if you get enough people to bug him about it. Arta is my go to for many things.
For pure speaker measurement there isnt anything cleaner and easier then HOLM (see my HOWTO for using HOLM). I can understand why REW might work for you because you are not building main speakers. I fully agree that if subwoofer measurements are the only thing going on then REW is very impressive.

No one I know building speakers is measuring with REW (many are using HOLM). Even Geddes posted that HOLM is the only measurement tool that made him switch for the first time in almost 20 years.

ARTA has the extra functionality for doing analysis AFTER the measurement but it costs money if you want to save anything. The free version is a full version minus saving.

FWIW, John and I had a good discussion on what is lacking in REW for full range design. Gating, summed response, THD (Noise, 1st through 5th). Zero position setting for AC measurement delay accuracy.

HOLM is pretty much dead these days on the improvement front and REW has a strong backing so I see REW improving to the point where it will be better then HOLM. Either way I spent $200 now to move onto real measurement/design software since it not only does impulse measurements but it also will give me my impedance measurements. This also means I have a WT3 software package if anyone wants it
post #492 of 507
Oh I bought a license for ARTA and a few other packages a while back. I also do a lot of investigation of electronic signals and electronics, its not just subs all of the time.
post #493 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

IMO, any app built for Windows is a PITA. Measurement apps are no exception.

Having said that, I agree that REW is by far the cleanest layout and serves my purposes of seeing what's happening when a subwoofer is put in a room and let loose.

I haven't upgraded my version since forever. Can you list some of the useful revisions?

Bosso

You'll have to be logged in to download (duh), but here you go.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...downloads.html

Info thread:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-feedback.html
post #494 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Oh I bought a license for ARTA and a few other packages a while back. I also do a lot of investigation of electronic signals and electronics, its not just subs all of the time.

Are you any closer to posting the results?
post #495 of 507
Patrick,

Thanks for having us over yesterday! The setup is unbelievable. The concert and movie demo's sounded phenomenal. The bass coming from the 3 dual opposed LMS boxes was accurate and able to dig really deep. You have to be happy now

I must say, the server setup with the popcorn hour was just as cool
-------jealous---------


I dont think I would ever have to leave the couch if I were you

Later,
B
post #496 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Dual-opposed drivers: CHECK

High end 18" drivers: CHECK

Plenty o' horsepower: CHECK

Looks-Cool boxes: CHECK

Sealed system: CHECK

We don't need no stinkin' HP: CHECK

Multiples for placement options: CHECK

A-W-E-S-O-M-E

Never thought I'd say this to a dude, but; Nice Rack.

More pics, graphs, spectrographs, sex, drugs, violence. We can't look away!!!

Bosso

I can't say it better than Bosso.
Warfpdrv was kind enough to invite me over to check out his system -- or rather systems.
Very elegant house with amazing woodwork quality in the subs, installation (very clean), and tight, plentiful bass.
The space is very big and open to more of the house, but the sound in "Open Range" was startling.
This is my new reference for bass.

The networked Popcorn hour and rack of hard drives was impressive as well.

Thanks for your hospitality.

Mike
post #497 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Of course, the next discussion would be with my wife.

Me: "I'm flying to Milwaukee or Wisconsin to meet up with a guy I met on the internet".

Her: "You're what"?

Me: "I said, I'm flying to Milwaukee or Wisconsin to meet up with a guy I met on the internet".

Me: "What are you doing with my 9 iron"?

Me: "Wait ... no it's not what you think ..."

Me: Silence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam McFarland View Post

Freakin HILARIOUS!

I think after my food report that my wife might attend just for the great food.
I also told her we need brie plates!


Mike
post #498 of 507
Thread Starter 
Ahhh I'll just say I didn't givevit my best on the menu this time around - I truly love to cook, but ran out of time for this gtg.

Thanks guys for the compliments.

It was tons of fun

BTW

GREEN BAY PACKERS !!!!!
SUPERBOWL HERE WE COME !!!!

FTW
post #499 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post


GREEN BAY PACKERS !!!!!
SUPERBOWL HERE WE COME !!!!

FTW

WOOHOO, Only one more game to go. Who will be the AFC champs?
post #500 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Looks like LMS's are back in stock at PE...

Time to get a replacement basket for my extra motor I scored for my next sub....

Your next sub?? So you've got 3 dual opposed LMS's, 1 submersive, what the hell is next!?
post #501 of 507
Oh, and on the football note, is anyone else hoping the Jets will turn this around and make it a Packers/Jets finale with no Brett Favre!? God would that be sweet ...
post #502 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Oh, and on the football note, is anyone else hoping the Jets will turn this around and make it a Packers/Jets finale with no Brett Favre!? God would that be sweet ...

I am right there with ya buddy
post #503 of 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Your next sub?? So you've got 3 dual opposed LMS's, 1 submersive, what the hell is next!?

He is replacing the submersive with a single sealed LMS 18"
post #504 of 507
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post


He is replacing the submersive with a single sealed LMS 18"

Correct - I picked up a LMS motor for a good deal, so I got an LMS top assembly on the way, and an extra 8002 amp layin around which to me makes for a seemingly match made in heaven. I have 3 boxes here I could use - but I have an appreciation and am more then willing to pay for a beautifully constructed cab to house the driver.

I'll post up pics when its finished
post #505 of 507
Fantastic subs and great workmanship.
post #506 of 507
Where can i buy this subs.. And what the exatly name of it.
post #507 of 507
Six TC-Sounds LMS Ultras plus three custom cabs built by Acoustic Elegance.

The name ... is Do It Yourself.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Warpdrv's Dual Opposed 18" LMS's..... "The XLerators"